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Redoing PL gaps
Topic Started: Jan 13 2013, 01:03 AM (2,370 Views)
Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs
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Haha, I am not touching tanking gaps with a 10-mile-stick. I have a bit of a theory right now that up until 110%ish, skill's half the battle. It explains why Vegeta's able to tool Zarbon like that when numerically he shouldn't be able to, and detracts a bit from the whole "PLs are everything".
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Flying Bizness
Jan 13 2013, 04:05 AM
Haha, I am not touching tanking gaps with a 10-mile-stick.
C-could you at least give your thoughts on my idea of it? :'(
Flying Bizness
Jan 13 2013, 04:05 AM
I have a bit of a theory right now that up until 110%ish, skill's half the battle. It explains why Vegeta's able to tool Zarbon like that when numerically he shouldn't be able to, and detracts a bit from the whole "PLs are everything".
Meh, going by that you could have the Cell/Goku gap bigger than ~9%, seeing as how Cell dominated Goku pretty handily despite Goku being as skilled as he is. Seeing as how I've got Cell at around ~111% Gokes, I like that.
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Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs
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The toying gap (133%) is where you can tank ki blitzes and some physical tanking happens too; Reacoom does tank some of Vegeta's hits if I remember correctly, so yeah, toying gap is a catch all for generic ki blast/physical attack tank.

As for more amplified attacks, we can go back to Raditz. A Saibaiman rivals him according to Vegeta, so I'd like to use a 109% gap (as Vegeta can notice the gap). This puts Raditz at 1308, and him withstanding and deflecting the 924 puts deflection at 140%. An instance of someone actually tanking a fully amplified attack with some numbers to back it up fails to come to mind right now.

Edit: Oh, Crusher Ball. I'll see if that can back up the 140% since Goku deflects it. It make make the range a bit bigger or smaller. Is Goku still at 60k when he deflects it?
Edited by Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs, Jan 13 2013, 04:50 AM.
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Flying Bizness
Jan 13 2013, 04:46 AM
The toying gap (133%) is where you can tank ki blitzes and some physical tanking happens too; Reacoom does tank some of Vegeta's hits if I remember correctly, so yeah, toying gap is a catch all for generic ki blast/physical attack tank.
Depends on what you mean by "tank"....not getting very damaged? Sure, but I wouldn't really call that a tank, not to mention Recoome's durability simply appears to be a b****. That's probably the best route to go IMO, given-

Spoiler: click to toggle


Flying Bizness
Jan 13 2013, 04:46 AM
As for more amplified attacks, we can go back to Raditz. A Saibaiman rivals him according to Vegeta, so I'd like to use a 109% gap (as Vegeta can notice the gap). This puts Raditz at 1308, and him withstanding and deflecting the 924 puts deflection at 1.4 ×. An instance of someone actually tanking a fully amplified attack with some numbers to back it up fails to come to mind right now.
I'm not so sure about Raditz. I've always wholeheartedly disagreed with putting him any higher than 1300 because of the Gohan Smash. Not to mention that I believe it was AT who said they were only slightly inferior to Raditz; also, the fact that the Z Senshi dispatch of the Saibamen the way they do is apparently proof of being above Raditz as well (P brought this up, not sure on quotes or whatever, I'll take his word though), so Raditz can't be too far ahead.

I'd say 1260-1275 works a bit better, not totally rivaling, not totally advantaged on Raditz's side either, giving those SOB's some credit, lol.

Though it wasn't a fully powered blast, 2nd form Freeza did tank Vegeta's blast. The blast likely had some oomph behind it, but it didn't seem to be anything special. That'd be somewhere in the 2x range.

EDIT:
Flying Bizness
Jan 13 2013, 04:46 AM
Edit: Oh, Crusher Ball. I'll see if that can back up the 140% since Goku deflects it. It make make the range a bit bigger or smaller. Is Goku still at 60k when he deflects it?
Yeah, he's no different than he was against Recoome. That'd be about 150%.
Edited by Kyouks, Jan 13 2013, 04:55 AM.
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Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs
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I don't like to get into tanking gaps mostly because it's "how much incredibly stronger is this guy than this other guy", and after a while it gets indistinguishable because we don't have feats like one fighter killing another one with their tongue anymore in DBZ. It gets to the point where it's no difference if the fighter is 10 times another one or 1 million times another one.

That above is my barely formed thoughts on tanking, but I'd rather leave you to it. Before transformations (which become all the rage later on), more than a 2 times gap is silly IMO. After SSJ, the transformations are really the only sources of ridiculous gaps.
Edited by Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs, Jan 13 2013, 05:02 AM.
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That's true, although the main reason I bother to try and figure it out is because I don't see the need to just assign an unnecessarily large figure for a tank that doesn't need it, not to mention you at least need some kind of idea for what the semi-tanks look like.

For now, I'm just going with a vague 200% > Tank >> Gohan/FP PC tank > Vegeta/Semi Cell tank >> 133%.

Flying Bizness
 
That above is my barely formed thoughts on tanking, but I'd rather leave you to it. Before transformations (which become all the rage later on), more than a 2 times gap is silly IMO. After SSJ, the transformations are really the only sources of ridiculous gaps.
:)
Edited by Kyouks, Jan 13 2013, 05:02 AM.
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Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs
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We're perfectly in sync man. The second I edit it to say anything more than a 2 times gap is silly, you post that saying 2x is a just about a true tank.
Edited by Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs, Jan 13 2013, 05:06 AM.
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Yeah, looks like we're more or less on the same page in terms of the gaps and all. I can more or less agree with the OP as well (not sure just how much one can afford to toy at 120%, but that looks fine).

Maybe you oughta throw in the stuff I told you about the tanks, along with your deflecting thing, in a separate chart (little less in-depth than the first, I guess), and then post on Shinden for feedback there. You got everything else in there, correct? (too much for eyes to look over :'( )
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I have a theory that as the Pl's of the series rise then the gaps get Bigger as well.

Vegeta and Goku have about a 10% gap in the saiyan saga with 18,000 and 16,200 where Goku can't keep up with Vegeta but in the Frieza Saga where it is reversed

Goku at 3,000,000 and Vegeta at about 2,500,000 it is a 17% gap.
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Gogeta power placement
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no name
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I disagree with almost everything at OP and i see most of you are confused .Don't worry people,i'll make everything clear,right now.

GOKU VS VEGETA

Phase 1-Goku fights with his full base power,which is 8.100 The fight is close,with Vegeta having some advantage.I estimate Vegeta,who's still toying
is using half his power,which is 9.000
Phase 2-Goku uses kaioken,rising his power to 16.200 After receiving some beating,Vegeta gets more serious and counterattacks,kicking Goku on
the chin.I estimate that Vegeta getting serious raises his power to 15.000,which is very close to Goku's.But,Goku has the disadvantage of kaioken's
strain on his body.This means that,if the fight continued like that,without Vegeta going full power or Goku using a higher kaioken,Goku would soon
battle wear,as opposed to Vegeta.That's why the narrator mentioned Goku couldn't keep up.
Phase 3-Vegeta goes full power.15-18 th is big enough a gap to explain Goku's reaction.I don't believe in the stupid theory about Goku being amazed
by the visual effects.Someone with a much lower PL than Goku had at that point could do the same display,so Goku wasn't impressed by what he
saw,but what he sensed.Now,16.200/18.000 is a gap that perfectly explains what follows.Goku barely dodges Vegeta's blast,with Vegeta kinda
holding back in speed.So,their gap is visible,but not enormous.
Phase 4-Now,about the beam struggle.I have a theory that Goku could only use regular khh,not the super one,while in kaioken and that the khh's
boost was added,not multiplied with kaioken boost.This way,we don't give Vegeta's gallick gun an insanely high multiplier,which would create a
major inconsistency later,during Ginyu Saga.

Goku
normal-8.100
3x kaioken-24.300
3x kaioken/regular khh-26.325

Vegeta
normal-18.000
gallick gun-24.000

Goku's and Vegeta's beams are pretty close,but Goku decided to use 4x kaioken,because,if he let the struggle drag on,he would be the one to fold up

NAMEK SAGA

I believe 22 th is too close to 24 th,even if some people disagree.I have Dodoria at 20 and Zarbon at 21.This means the gap Vegeta/Base Zarbon is
about 1,15x Their fight wasn't even at all,despite some people saying so.Here's what Vegeta says during that fight
''To me,it looks like you're standing still''
''I haven't broken a sweat,up to now''
It looks like a 1,15x gap is enough for an easy win,so we can adopt 1,15x as the minimum ''victory assured'' range.
Now,when Zarbon transforms,the perfect number to give is 28.This is both big enough to explain Zarbon stomping and close enough to Vegeta's 30
to explain the fact that Vegeta needed a strategy.

GINYU SAGA

As we saw in Saiyans' Saga,Vegeta's strongest amplified blast was 1,33x It's not confirmed what kind of blast he used against Recoome,but,
regarding the seriousness of the situation,it should be the strongest.So,Vegeta is at 30 and his blast at 40.
Kuririn states that Recoome,Jeice and Burter are equal,so,no need to overcomplicate the issue by giving them different numbers.I have all 3 of them
at 40.This number is perfect because
-It is compatible with Reccome taking Vegeta's blast with some scratches only
-There is plenty of space between it and Goku's 60,for Jeice's amplified attack to fit in.I have Crusher Ball at 45.Thus,it both has a multiplier and is still
weak enough to make sense that Goku deflected it with his one arm.
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no name
Jan 13 2013, 12:00 PM
I disagree with almost everything at OP and i see most of you are confused .Don't worry people,i'll make everything clear,right now.

GOKU VS VEGETA

Phase 1-Goku fights with his full base power,which is 8.100 The fight is close,with Vegeta having some advantage.I estimate Vegeta,who's still toying
is using half his power,which is 9.000
Phase 2-Goku uses kaioken,rising his power to 16.200 After receiving some beating,Vegeta gets more serious and counterattacks,kicking Goku on
the chin.I estimate that Vegeta getting serious raises his power to 15.000,which is very close to Goku's.But,Goku has the disadvantage of kaioken's
strain on his body.This means that,if the fight continued like that,without Vegeta going full power or Goku using a higher kaioken,Goku would soon
battle wear,as opposed to Vegeta.That's why the narrator mentioned Goku couldn't keep up.
When was a power-up noted?
Spoiler: click to toggle
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Goku is definitely at a clear disadvantage against Initial Vegeta even with KKx2. Not only is the strain of KKx2 nothing compared to the KKx3 strain, Vegeta is able to regain his composure and out-maneuver Goku despite the fact that Goku was already on a set, clean course to hit him good once more, not to mention that Vegeta's one kick seemed to do far more damage than any of Goku's punches.

I can more or less agree with your KHH thing, and Vegeta's lower Galick Gun amplifier, I do that too.

I think I mentioned this before (not to you, but in some other thread), but there are 2 routes to take with Zarbon.

a) He isn't worried about 22,000, which doesn't make sense if he's 21,000. So just mold your gaps around that, even if it doesn't make sense, rather than trying to mold the story around your personal gaps.

b) You can give Zarbon a separate level for decreased Yuuki (one of the components of chi, has to do with bravery...you can do the same for Dodobrain if you want as well), so it'd look like-

Zarbon - 22,000
--- Decreased Yuuki (vs Vegeta) - 21,000

And maybe also-

Dodobrain - 20,000
--- Decreased Yuuki - 19,000

Kind of a cop out in my eyes, but whatever. I just don't think it makes sense for Zarbon's true power to be under 22,000 when he doesn't make a big deal out of it like Dodobrain does.
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Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs
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no name
Jan 13 2013, 12:00 PM
[big post here]
Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P1.1
Narrator: “Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-Ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!"

This clearly points to KK x 2 Goku < Vegeta pre power-up, I have no idea where you've got the whole Vegeta being weaker than Goku but Goku having strain. Strain isn't present enough to make a difference till he goes beyond 2 times BTW , as stated by Kaio and Goku a lot of times.

There's not much supporting that KHH theory of yours BTW, and it does change the gap.

Plus, as Pyro said, a power-up wasn't noted.

As for Zarbon v. Dodoria, 21 to 20 is too close. Zarbon gives Vegeta way more trouble than Dodoria does, I looked over the raw scans when I was doing this for the fight scenes. And skill is important up to a certain point, so even if it just has Vegeta as 109% of Zarbon, remember, there's his fighting style: going straight for the kill.

Your post did not illuminate much for me...
Edited by Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs, Jan 14 2013, 02:32 AM.
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Kiosko Iwannabegattsu
Jan 13 2013, 09:10 PM
Goku is definitely at a clear disadvantage against Initial Vegeta even with KKx2. Not only is the strain of KKx2 nothing compared to the KKx3 strain, Vegeta is able to regain his composure and out-maneuver Goku despite the fact that Goku was already on a set, clean course to hit him good once more, not to mention that Vegeta's one kick seemed to do far more damage than any of Goku's punches.

I can more or less agree with your KHH thing, and Vegeta's lower Galick Gun amplifier, I do that too.

I think I mentioned this before (not to you, but in some other thread), but there are 2 routes to take with Zarbon.

a) He isn't worried about 22,000, which doesn't make sense if he's 21,000. So just mold your gaps around that, even if it doesn't make sense, rather than trying to mold the story around your personal gaps.

b) You can give Zarbon a separate level for decreased Yuuki (one of the components of chi, has to do with bravery...you can do the same for Dodobrain if you want as well), so it'd look like-

Zarbon - 22,000
--- Decreased Yuuki (vs Vegeta) - 21,000

And maybe also-

Dodobrain - 20,000
--- Decreased Yuuki - 19,000

Kind of a cop out in my eyes, but whatever. I just don't think it makes sense for Zarbon's true power to be under 22,000 when he doesn't make a big deal out of it like Dodobrain does.
-Goku didn't expect Vegeta's counterattack and the prince's kick didn't damage him at all.Anyway,a post below yours pointed out that the narrator's
quote indicates Vegeta's supression is stronger than Goku's kaioken.Since this does not leave room Vegeta's power up and he didn't look superior
anyway,all he did was delivering a kick,can we say the narrator said that just to keep us in agony?
-Zarbon was not worried by 22 scouter reading,because he thought the scouter was malfunctioning.When he heard Dodoria's scouter reading and
realized it wasn't a malfunction,he DID feel worried.

EDIT
Some things i forgot
-I just read the Herms statement above more carefully.What it says is that kaioken could not give Goku the upper hand.This means he wasn't
superior to Vegeta with it,but it doesn't necessarily mean he was inferior.
-About Vegeta's power up KP asked.Either it was one of those ''silent'' power ups,with no visual effects(like Cell's ''true speed'' power up)or Vegeta
just raised his effort.
Edited by no name, Jan 14 2013, 09:26 AM.
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Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs
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The moment Vegeta kicks Goku, Goku powers down immediately knowing he's not strong enough. That points to inferiority. If you find it tough reworking your views around this, there's always the opinions I've formed that you can share with me
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