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| Was Gohan a SSjin 2 or a SSjin vs Dabura ? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 12 2013, 05:35 PM (3,508 Views) | |
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Jan 12 2013, 05:35 PM Post #1 |
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The Showstopper
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Note: If you are not DSB or Naked Snake OR any of the Fact Checkers , do NOT post in this topic. The topic is : Was Gohan a SSjin 2 or a SSjin vs Dabura ? The Debate Starts from my next Post |
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Jan 12 2013, 05:58 PM Post #2 |
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The Showstopper
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I will Start by using some Scans Scan 1 Scan 2 Scan 3 Scan 4 Well .... There are 2 things common : The Lighting and The Aura ... The Aura is ... Vigorous [i cant use the right word to state this] Scan 5 See Gohan's Aura .... its exactly as a SSj/Full Power SSj Scan 6 So ,I believe that GOHAN WAS A Full Power SSj Against Dabura .... NOT a SSj2 |
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| * Yu Narukami | Jan 12 2013, 06:00 PM Post #3 |
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Izanagi!
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I see. You make a good point, DSB. In defence, I'd like to present the point that Lightning has been used throughout the series to signal power. As an example, Nappa had lightning circling him once he'd finished powering up in front of the Z-Senshi. Is it not possible that the Lightning, although a unique feature of the form, signals that the fighter using it is at full power, or close to it. If we look at the Budokai scenario, Gohan got his energy almost completely drained, it got to the point where the group were worrying if he'd survive and they rushed to him as soon as Spopo and Yamu left Chapter: 445 (DBZ 251), P8.1 Context: as Kibito revives Gohan Kibito: “Um…! He still hasn’t reached full power…This is bottomless power…At any rate, to think that there would be a human who moved with such gigantic, pure energy…This is why they wanted it…” (Note, the quote that I'm using is from Herms, a user on Kanzenshuu who's widely respected as one of the best translators.) ''He still hasn't reached full power'' would suggest that he's seriously doubting whether he'd be able to heal Gohan completely. We could say that Kibito wasn't able to fully heal Gohan and, as a result, Gohan didn't have lightning in his SSJ2 form against Dabura. In response to Goku's comment on anger; Anger has been Gohan's gateway to power since the beginning of the series. hapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6 Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone… Goku's emphasis on Gohan getting angry tells me that he's talking about the true power that he showed against Cell. He went from half of his own power to beating Cell's Kamehameha. Surely he would say something about 'that form that you used against Cell', no? Edited by Yu Narukami, Jan 12 2013, 06:14 PM.
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| * Yu Narukami | Jan 12 2013, 06:15 PM Post #4 |
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Izanagi!
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Well, I was under the impression, yes, but if DSB wishes to use the Anime, I'd be willing to oblige. Note : DSB, I edited my first post. |
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Jan 13 2013, 07:33 AM Post #5 |
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The Showstopper
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Well ... great points ......... lets see how i can answer them ... [and ya .... Snake .. plz Reply to my PM]
I agree to what u said about Nappa's Powerup and Lighting ... that happened everywhere in the series ... Frieza , Super Namek Piccolo , Perfect Cell .... everyone But there is a difference .... See ALL the SSj2's ... SPC .... they had lightning when they were standing ... and SSj2 Gohan @ Cell Games was even masking the Power difference between him and Perfect Cell [ which means he WAS NOT using Full Power ] .... Still he had that Lightning sparks in his aura .... only when he was fighting .. he didnt have them This indicates that Lighting Sparks and Intense Aura ARE CHARACTERISTIC FEATURES of a SSj2.
Well ... I believe Gohan Just Showed Kibito the SSj2 form .... which DOES NOT MEAN that he would be using Full Power to fight .... he just showed him .... Still , he had Sparks and Intense Aura ... Now , Spopo and Yamu took everything he had .... his entire energy ... and left him to die ....At this point , Kibito started Healing him ... and ...
Well .... Kibito was Doubting ... he was thinking that he cant bring him at full power [100% stamina / ki / energy status]. But ... he DID NOT Say that He cant bring him at 100%[ stamina / ki / energy status] After healing Gohan , he said "You are Fine now" ... and Gohan (amazed) Stood up and said "What are you ?" ............... Doesnt this imply that he was at 100%[ stamina / ki / energy status] ? Think of it in this way .......... Supreme Kai and Kibito came to STOP Babidi from bring Majin buu back ... they know how strong were Goku , Gohan ... Vegeta ... He said that he cant beat goku ...he said he cant Hold Gohan's power ..... and he said to Goku before he left to follow yamu and Spopo that "If you want , you can come ... youll be of Great Help" He Goku , piccolo and Vegeta met Supreme Kai while chasing those 2 ... he said "Im glad you came .... without you , I dont think i can win". So , he needed the Saiyans to Stop Babidi ... He knew How powerful Gohan was ... So ... he also needed him at his best [at 100%] Now ... if they used SSj2 Gohan @ Full Power to attract Spopo and Yamu to steal his energy , leaving him to die .... they also decided to heal gohan .... get him to his FP again ... isnt this odd that u use Gohan as a Bait ... get all of his stolen and then not healing him to his 100% stamina wise ? So .... there is no way of thinking that Gohan WAS NOT at 100% and would notbe able to go Full Power .... and then didnt have those Sparks while he fought dabura .. at least while he was floating .. was removing his glove Now if i consider the Anime : When he was healed .... Gohan said outright : "Uh .. i feel EVEN Stronger than i was before" indicating A possible Zenkai [well , im not through with Zenkai .. i only know the overall thing ] So ... Manga wise : Gohan was healed completely ... he was as strong as he was before his energy drain 100%[ stamina / ki / energy status] Anime wise : Gohan said he was EVEN Stronger than before So , in BOTH Cases : Gohan ,at least ,was Not weaker when he fought Dabura
Gohan used his ANGER to get to SSj2 in the First place .... then ... he slacked off as he didnt train for LONG years... he didnt practice SSj2 .... his Adult SSj2 was weaker than his SSj2 @ Cell Games Goku expected that gohan would be as much angry as he was against Cell ... that didnt happen {Gohan himself said that} Well .. if u agree with me till this ... i will bring forward my NEXT point on why Gohan wasnt a SSj2 against Dabura. Edited by DSB, Jan 13 2013, 04:26 PM.
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| * Yu Narukami | Jan 13 2013, 01:51 PM Post #6 |
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Izanagi!
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Hmm, you make some good points. Regarding the whole 'Full Power' issue, I don't think that Gohan was close to his full power. The nonchalant attitude and his lack of anger beforehand suggest that he just transformed. Similarly to the Cell Games, you could say that once he had transformed, he was masking his true power. So, essentially, you'd get SSJ2 Teen Gohan (Full Power) > SSJ2 Gohan (@Budokai) This is supported by; Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P3.2-4 Goku: “Is he amazing?...” Kaioshin: “Of course…He’s the king of the Dark Demon Realm, after all…One of you people is probably the #1 in this world, but in the other world, the world of demons, Dabra is absolutely on top…” Kuririn: “Th-the king of the Demon Realm, you say?...There’s a world like that?...S-so he’s probably an incredibly dangerous opponent, right…!?” If Kaio-shin had seen Gohan's full power at the tournament, that would mean that he would stand no chance, right? From this, we can assume that Dabra > SSJ2 Gohan (Initial). Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P3.1-2 Vegeta: “Hmph…Seems Babidi is really panicking, if you, his #1 man are already making your appearance…” Dabra: “Hmph…Let’s end the pointless blather there and have all of you come at me, at once.” Dabra's confident in taking all three of them on, even after witnessing Goku's SSJ2 burst against Yakon. You could interpret this as saying Dabra > SSJ2 Goku (Burst), which would imply that Dabra's at least a very low SSJ2-tier fighter. Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P12.3-4 Context: after Dabra says he’ll fight on Stage 3 Babidi: “Da-Dabra…if yo-you get done in, I’ll be finished…Do you have a chance of winning?...” Dabra: “A chance of winning?...Fuffuffuh…I’m Dabra, king of the Demon Realm…There doesn’t exist anyone in the entire world who exceeds my power…” Again, this suggests that Dabra is stronger than any power that has been shown up until this point. The lack of Lightning is a blow to the SSJ2 view, yes, but with all these implications, one would be heavily influenced by the view, unless they believe that SSJ Gohan > SSJ2 Gohan The final chain that I've come up with right now is; SSJ2 Gohan (Babidi's Ship) ~ Dabra > SSJ2 Goku (Burst) > SSJ2 Gohan (@Budokai) |
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Jan 13 2013, 05:43 PM Post #7 |
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The Showstopper
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Note : Well ..i seem to have Misguided you by not using the correct word to express myself By "Full Power" , i meant "100%[ stamina / ki / energy status]" ... not worn out Gohan's Stamina before energy drain and after healing was same ............ i goofed up .. Sorry Plz see my last post again .. i edited it. Now ...
Well ... One thing i believe is that Dabura is almost equal to or a little more than Perfect Cell [Full Power] Now ... PC [powered up] is a little stronger than Full power SSj Goku .... and Full power SSj Gohan was much stronger than Full power SSj Goku .Gohan didnt believe that Goku Power (going all out against Cell) was all that he had .... That proves he was stronger than his dad Now ... PC [post Senzu bean] had to use his max speed to counter Gohan's FP SSj Speed ... And .... Gohan was reluctant to fight ... he didnt even want to kill Cell .... Then Everything Changed once he got angry and went SSj2 Even for Full Power PC , Gohan was an OVERKILL [at this point ... he was even masking the power difference between him and PC ] then .. when PC become SPC and Returned .... SSj2 gohan lost half (or more) of his power while saving vegeta. SPC said he had enough power to destroy the Solar System ... To do this .. he must have used his full power [at least at the ending moments of the Kamehameha battle] SSj2 Gohan [50% or less of full power ] gave EVERYTHING HE HAD and overcame SPC [Full power] So .. even Full Power SSj2 Teen Gohan > 50% SSj2 Teen Gohan >~ SPC >>> Full Power PC Still , SPC was at least a competition [even though not much of ] to SSj2 Teen Gohan .... But PC Full Power was nothing in front of him I believe Dabura Full power is >= PC Full Power and quite less powerful than SPC Now ... lets come to Adult Gohan He didnt train for 7 years .... he lost all his Fighting Skills ... Still .... he was pretty close as FP SSj as Compared to his Younger self [adult gohan was Weaker ..... we know] Now see this : Lets say I am Gohan ... i agree with Goku and Vegeta that Dabura is of the same level as Cell ... Now ... i am against dabura .... and i turned an SSj and was even with Dabura before he used Full power As Soon as Dabura went to full power .... he had an advantage over me .... even after i went pretty hard against him as a FP SSj . Note that if Gohan went pretty hard as a SSj2 .... Dabura would be Squashed easily .... I believe that adult Gohan ... however slackened he was .... if he went all out as SSJ2 against SPC .. he could have won .. but after a very tough fight .... so .. Dabura dont stand a chance against SSj2 Adult Gohan Now .... this leads the way to 2 Arguments ..... on why didnt he use SSj2 against Dabura : 1) Gohan wanted to see if he can defeat Dabura as a FP SSj and going all out .... if i was gohan ... i would wait ... if things go out of my hands ....... i would go SSj2 and squash dabura The above statement is just one part of the matter what im going to tell is even more important 2) Gohan's Control over SSj2 I will explain this .... once u agree on these 2 points : a) Gohan regained his stamina after being healed and could go Full power anytime he wanted b) Dabura is >= PC Full power but much less than SPC Edited by DSB, Jan 13 2013, 05:50 PM.
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| * Yu Narukami | Jan 13 2013, 06:48 PM Post #8 |
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Izanagi!
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You make a good point on the Kibito healing situation. In response, I'd like to present the view that Gohan could still be at Full Power and be a SSJ2. Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4 Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…” Kaioshin: “…Is-is that true, Son Goku?...” Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…” The first thing I'd like to pick up on is Vegeta's statement. ''we should manage something'' implies that he has some misgivings about being able to take Dabra out. Even more damning is the fact that he said 'we'. Does he mean the group as a whole? This next chain is something that I know everyone is going to dislike, but; SSJ2 Kid Gohan ~ Super Perfect Cell > SSJ2 Teen Gohan ~ Dabra I don't think that the gap between Kid and Teen Gohan is very large at all. Vegeta's probably assuming that Goku is around his level of power, so we'd get SSJ2 Kid Gohan ~ Super Perfect Cell > SSJ2 Vegeta (Pre-Majin) = SSJ2 Goku (Vegeta's estimation) >= SSJ2 Teen Gohan ~ Dabra Its the 'probably' in Goku's statement that leads me to this conclusion. Using that, we can put Dabra somewhat near to SPC, but still under him. Goku was dwarfed by SPC's power and you could argue that as a result, he couldn't get a clear reading of it, just like Piccolo in the battle between Majin Vegeta and Boo. An issue that I would have with putting Dabra near any other Cell would be Gohan and reaction. Lets take a quick glance; Dabra ~ Cell (@Goku) - This wouldn't warrant the reactions at all, even if Gohan was SSJ. Depending on your gaps, Gohan would probably have to lose a hell of an amount of power to make this acceptable. Plus, I don't think Goku and Vegeta would be questioning their own and Gohan's chances against him Dabra ~ Cell (@Goku) - Cell still had an advantage over Gohan, although it was admittedly minor. Unless Gohan lost no power, surely Dabra would be at an advantage? Although you could say that the 'probably' means that he could still be relatively near Gohan. Something important to note is that its suggested that Goku and Vegeta are either > Kid Gohan, or ~ Kid Gohan Dabra ~ Cell (Full Power) - Now with this one, you'd be forced to believe that Gohan was a SSJ2. Unless you have Gohan doubling or tripling his strength, then he has to be SSJ2 to even stand a chance of surviving. The issue is that SSJ2 >>/>>> Full Power Perfect Cell >>> SSJ. He's like the middle ground between the two. And, just to say, when they're talking about standing a chance and winning, Goku and Vegeta would logically be talking about themselves in their SSJ2 forms, as that's their max power (with the exception of SSJ3). Why would they talk about their chances of success while only thinking of their regular SSJ forms? In regards to 50% SSJ2 Kid Gohan, I go with this; SSJ2 Kid Gohan (Full power, Father-Son Kamehameha) > Super Perfect Cell (Solar Kamehameha) > SSJ2 Kid Gohan (Full Power) ~ Super Perfect Cell >> SSJ2 Kid Gohan (50%) >/>> Perfect Cell (Full Power) Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P6.2-5 Context: after Gohan's injured saving Vegeta, and Cell charges up his final Kamehameha Goku: “Go strike with an all-out Kamehameha, like Cell! If you do that, you’ll definitely win! Absolutely!” Gohan: “B-but, the way I am now…I can only use one arm, and even my ki is already less than half…” [ ] Goku: “That’s alright, you can win! Believe in your own power! Show me one last time…The power we created together!” Now, with this, we hit a few snags. With the whole 'ki' comment, there's a few interpretations; 1) He lost half of his ki 2) He lost access to half of his ki I go with the second simply because its more logical. When Gohan gets angry, he taps into the hidden powers that he holds within him. That's why he gets rage boosts. I personally think that with the final push, Gohan unleashed all of that hidden power into one humongous blast that dwarves his regular full power. On the point that you made about Adult Gohan, I'll express my views after you post. On the first matter, I do agree that its very likely that Gohan was fully healed, or next to fully healed, as it works in well with what I've just posted and my views. On the second matter, I disagree. But please, do continue. |
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Jan 14 2013, 07:22 AM Post #9 |
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The Showstopper
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I can negate this with 3 things : 1) If Vegeta thought about 'we should manage something'' and if he really meant the whole group , ............ he would not have let Gohan go alone ... or even not tell goku to call Gohan back that he will finish Dabura alone [ in gohan and dabura's fight ] . He meant each one of the group .... not total .... had to capability to finish him [ barring the fact that he realized Gohan lost his fighting skills and he cant beat him that easliy ] . His wish to fight and Defeat Goku was there at his mind all along ........ So , he wanted to finish the job there quickly 2) See the scan : Scan See what Vegeta Says ? 3) In the Episode "Vegeta Attacks" of the Anime [funi dub] ... Vegeta says the same thing in a different manner . So .... Vegeta was sure that He would defeat Dabura very easliy .... and Goku Agreed
About this line : SSJ2 Kid Gohan ~ Super Perfect Cell > SSJ2 Teen Gohan ~ Dabra ....... i disagree Terribly. It was told in the manga ... said by gohan himself that trying to save vegeta ... he lost over half of his full power ... SPC Said he had Enough energy to destroy the Solar System .... And at the middle and final stages of the kamehameha Struggle .. SPC used his full power on gohan .... Then ... SSj2 Kid Gohan [with less than 50% of his full strength] .. gave everything he had and over powered SPC .......... He became so tired after he won that he passed out Sp .. the Chain Should be : Full power SSJ2 Kid Gohan > Half power SSJ2 Kid Gohan > less than Half power SSJ2 Kid Gohan <~ Super Perfect Cell [Full power] Now .. Even Perfect Cell had to use his full Speed to catch up to FP SSj Kid Gohan .... And ... Gohan was reluctant to fight ........ What we MISSED is a Fight between FP SSj Kid Gohan [NOT RELUCTANT] vs PC [Full power] I believe PC Full power is a little more Powerful than FP SSj Kid Gohan [NOT RELUCTANT] AND ..... i believe : Super Perfect Cell [Full power] >> Dabura Full power >~ PC Full Power Dabura Full power should not be much powerful than PC Full power Now one thing i u to think about is : Goku and Vegeta trained hard for 7 years ... Not only they Became equal as a SSj to that of Kid Gohan SSj ..... they must had surpassed FP SSj Kid Gohan as a SSj [ though , not by much ] And on top of that .... They got to SSj2 and SSj2 Goku Surpassed SSJ2 Kid Gohan and SSj2 Vegeta [pre majin boost] was a little less or equal (at the most) to that of SSJ2 Kid Gohan. Now , Gohan trained hard with Goku .. became a SSj in Rosat and even surpassed his Dad in power , even before becoming SSj2 .... using his anger to go to SSj2 and push his limits He WAS NOT Supposed to be a SSj2 at that point .... he didnt train that much .. his Rage and potential made him a SSj2 at 1st place.. While Goku and Vegeta got SSj2 by Training VERY HARD Now .. vegeta , seeing Gohan as SSj2 at the budokai ,said Gohan was much stronger when he was younger ..... He forgot one thing .......... Kid Gohan was Bursting in Anger and Teen Gohan didnt have that anger at all .... [he said that himself later] That makes one thing Clear ......... Gohan , by not training for 7 years, lost less than 1/3rd to more that 1/5th of his power that he had @ Cell Games So .. Teen Gohan = 66% - 80% Kid Gohan I believe that even if he was as angry as he was against Cell .... Teen Gohan would have maximum 80% of the Total power [even as a SSj2] that he had as a Kid [as a SSj2] So , : Teen Gohan [Max Power at full rage] is 80% of that of Kid Gohan [Max Power at full rage]. He Slacked off ....
I went with the 1st one and will still go with that ........... In the process of saving vegeta , he lost half of his ki [he even broke his left arm] Think of this : You are beaten to a Pulp / or u take a HUGE HIT of a energy blast ... u die and your ki become ZERO .... does that mean that u dont have access to ur ki anymore ? No ... u die becoz u lost ALL of ur Ki in the battle/ becoz of the Hit and u have nothing LEFT Kid Gohan lost over half of his ki and his Max Power came down to that point [less than half of his Full power] as i said earlier ... Gohan used his SSj and went hard against Dabura .... to see if that works ... and saved the SSj2 for later Edited by DSB, Jan 14 2013, 10:06 AM.
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| + Kyouks | Jan 14 2013, 09:44 AM Post #10 |
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Sorry for the intervention, but seeing as how the fact checkers bring up certain things that one side is completely missing...
So I noticed that DSB posted this^, but Naked didn't really say anything much about. Then it got posted again....
Not sure if Naked will pick up on it this time, but in any case: Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P10.2 Context: after Gohan fires his Kamehameha Piccolo: “It no use…! Gohan’s ki is weaker after all…” ^There's that. Think on it for a bit before moving on with your argument. Thanks. ~ Kyouks |
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Jan 14 2013, 10:15 AM Post #11 |
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The Showstopper
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Well ... thanks Kiosko I think i missed this part :
I corrected it in my previous post as Kyouks said........... but in my manga ... the above quote is not there .... instead .... its written : "its no use .... gohan cant win" ... maybe thats why i could not find it [i said the same thing to Kyouks in PM ] Edited by DSB, Jan 14 2013, 10:36 AM.
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| * Yu Narukami | Jan 14 2013, 05:59 PM Post #12 |
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Izanagi!
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I'm impressed, very respectable post. First off, I'd like to cover the Cell Games chain. I believe that Full Power Perfect Cell is way, way above Full Power MSSJ Gohan Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P3.5 Context: after Gohan says he can beat Cell Cell: “Well then, I’ll show you…! My fearsome true power…!” Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P8.2-4 Context: after Cell powers up Goku: “S-so we finally get to see Cell fight at full power” Kuririn: “This ki is so astounding, it’s like the entire Earth is shaking.” Gohan: “What’s the big deal?” Once Gohan powers up, Cell decides to show his full power. Despite just seeing Gohan transform, everyone is taken back by Cell's full power. If Cell's true power were anywhere near MSSJ Gohan's, would it warrant that much of a reaction in the light of Gohan's new power? Cell's in a totally different league when he powers up; the only one who isn't completely surprised is Gohan, who's cocky and knows that he's holding back a lot of power. To me, the events signal that; SSJ2 Gohan (Initial) > Full Power Perfect Cell >>> Perfect Cell (@Gohan) ~ MSSJ Gohan > Perfect Cell (@Goku) Now, unless you're suggesting that Gohan in his MSSJ form was holding back an immense amount of power, we can assume that Full Power Perfect Cell >>/>>> MSSJ Gohan (Full Power), based on the reaction to his power-up. Moving on from this, we can look at Super Perfect Cell. ---Post-self destruction--- [#CE3#CEL#POS] Chapter: 413 (DBZ 219), P10.1, P11.3-4, P12.1 Context: after regenerating from his self-destruction Cell: “There’s a small clump inside my head…This makes up my nucleus…As long as that clump isn’t destroyed, my body can continue regenerating…When I self-destructed, my nucleus fortunately remained uninjured…Quite frankly, I hadn’t calculated on being able to regenerate…I was lucky…And even more happily, my body regenerated as my perfect form, even without No.18…And it wasn’t merely my perfect form: I had vastly powered up like Son Gohan…This was probably done by the Saiyan cells, which greatly increase in power when they are saved from the brink of death…And I even managed to learn Son Goku’s Teleportation…So in short, I was able to return here, having become even more perfect. It seems that rather than defeat me, Son Goku has given me several presents.” ''I had vastly powered up like Son Gohan...'' This is the part I want to home in on. In Cell's mind, SSJ2 Gohan (Initial) = SSJ2 Gohan (Full Power). Gohan didn't need to power up and, as such, everyone thought that the power he was displaying was his maximum output. I'll use numbers as a display for my thoughts; MSSJ Gohan : 100 Perfect Cell (@Gohan) : 110 Perfect Cell (Full Power) : 330 SSJ2 Gohan (Initial) : 400 Super Perfect Cell : 630 SSJ2 Gohan (Hypothetical Maximum) : 800 Of course, I'm taking it in a literal sense, meaning that they'd both have the exact same increase. Now, if this is correct, Cell was confident in coming back because, in his mind, he was vastly superior to Gohan's full power (even though this wasn't, in fact, the case). SSJ2 Gohan (50%) would be the same as his initial level, so you can see that Cell would have quite an advantage. Now, making this relevant to the argument; We could still take your 80% argument, and put SSJ2 Teen Gohan at 640, which is right around where Super Perfect Cell would be. Placing Dabra around there would make the idea that Goku was talking about SPC more possible. Of course, these numbers are my own, and obviously aren't fact, they're just how I perceive the gaps and strengths. In regards to the Vegeta comment; You have to remember that he has a ridiculous sense of pride. He didn't want to gang up on Cell, even when he was weakened after fighting Goku, and only saw it as a last-ditch effort right before the planet was destroyed. If Gohan had the possibility of a victory, I think Vegeta would let him carry on, especially due to how Gohan insisted that it was his fight, and that Vegeta and Goku had their turn. So, in Vegeta's mind, I think it goes SSJ2 Goku > SSJ2 Vegeta ~ Dabra >~ SSJ2 Teen Gohan (If Gohan was a SSJ2) With your earlier point, you talked of anger. Shall we look at the context of the situation? Piccolo and Krillin were stone statues out on the cliff and Gohan knew that the only way to return them to normal was to beat Dabra. Furthermore, he knew that any damage he took would be put towards reviving Majin Boo, a result that none of them wanted. Even if he angry enough to get a full boost, why wouldn't he fight in his SSJ2 form? He clearly had access to it. Unless SSJ Gohan > SSJ2 Gohan (Not angry), then it would make no sense. Rage has been the thing for Gohan for the entirety of DBZ. In every situation he's gotten angry, he's shown to have gotten some sort of boost. I don't see how this wouldn't apply to the Cell Games situation. Even if he did lose access to half of his obtainable ki, surely his dormant/hidden power would remain. Goku and Gohan showed that SSJ2 Gohan (Father-son Kamehameha) > Super Perfect Cell (Solar Kamehameha), but the implications also show that Super Perfect Cell > SSJ2 Gohan (50%) So, if we use; SSJ2 Gohan (FS Kamehameha) > Super Perfect Cell (Solar Kamehameha) > Super Perfect Cell > SSJ2 Gohan (50%), then Gohan's got to get power from somewhere to make the chain work. I'm proposing that he got it in a rage boost, accessing his hidden power. Now, back to the Boo Saga Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2 Context: as Dabra fights Gohan Goku: “Magic, huh? He’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?” Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…” Goku: “He really did slack off!” ''He's way stronger than I thought, ain't he?'' Note : This is after the statement that he's around Cell's level. So, even if he was talking about Perfect Cell (@Goku), this means that Dabra is >/>> that Cell. Then, we get; Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3 Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?” Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.” As you can see in the fight, Dabra is about equal with Gohan. Yet, he still calls him trash and says that he can deal with him with no doubt. I think a chain would look like this; SSJ2 Goku (Full Power) ~ Majin Vegeta > Dabra (Full Power) ~ SSJ2 Vegeta (Pre-Majin) > Super Perfect Cell ~ SSJ2 Teen Gohan ~ Dabra (@Gohan) > SSJ2 Goku (Burst) > Dabra (Expected) > SSJ2 Teen Gohan (@Budokai) Kaio-shin seems fearful of Dabra, even after witnessing Gohan's display of strength at the Budokai. That means that Dabra > SSJ2 Teen Gohan (@Budokai), in my eyes. If Dabra is even approaching regular SSJ2 levels of strength, then that means he's at least >/>> regular SSJ strength |
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| + Kyouks | Jan 15 2013, 03:38 AM Post #13 |
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Curry's going to be a bit busy, and I was going to have this debate end tomorrow morning, but due to certain circumstances, I'll extend it to somewhere around 5:00 PM Central Time (United States). You two have up until then to get your final points out however you see fit. Good luck. ~ Kyouks |
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Jan 15 2013, 01:42 PM Post #14 |
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The Showstopper
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Well ... since the allotted time for our Debate will end after a few hours ... this is going to be my LAST POST ........... I am going to say whatever i have in mind about this topic
Well .... I truly believe that FPSSj Gohan was really holding A LOT more power .... he just powered up ... got ready to fight PC ..... now .... Cell even used his full speed to catch up to him .... and powerwise , even a reluctant gohan gave him trouble ... Now .... one thing i want to say ... this had hit me while i was reading ur post .... Gohan always had a great potential ....... but even after that .... he had something which i have not seen in any other Z Fighter ..... i would call this thing : "Rage Boost" This ... i agree with u ... but .... i would use it differently .... more logically As evidence ... i would like to take up the Frieza Saga .. I believe Grand Elder released the entire potential that Gohan had ... which increased his power drastically .... Now .... Remember how Gohan went against 2nd Form Frieza thinking he killed Krillen ? his potential was unlocked ... then how did he get that ? This was that "Rage Boost" .... I believe that Grand Elder DID NOT find this as this power works differently .... this was a part of his Potential that was never meant to come out unless Gohan had "lost it" ... [This is was the case with SSj2 Kid Gohan .... ] until of course Gohan went Ultimate Gohan [Elder Kai must have found this and unlocked even this ... as a result ... what piccolo said , "Gohan has lost all his politeness" .... now the difference between this and SSj2 Kid Gohan's "Rage Boost" is that Ultimate Gohan had full control over that power and Kid Gohan Didnt ] Coming back to the what i was saying ...... Gohan .. when he transformed into SSj2 ..... he had this "Rage Boost" , along with his full power ... but right from the beginning , he masked a lot of it ... but not entirely ... That why no one felt just how much stronger he had became ..... When PC went Full Power , the Z Warriors Felt it ... but not Gohan's power increase when he went SSj2 If gohan hadnt even gone to SSj2 and just went to Full power in MSSj with that same amount of Rage boost , that would have made him Very close to PC [Full Power] SSj2 Gohan [Suppressed] wasnt surprised ..,. becoz he knew how much power he had gained .... The others didnt know that This Makes the Power chain : SSJ2 Gohan (with Rage Boost , Suppressed ) >>> Full Power Perfect Cell >~ MSSj Gohan (with Rage Boost , Full power ) > Perfect Cell (@Gohan) ~ MSSJ Gohan > Perfect Cell (@Goku)
I agree to this : " In Cell's mind, SSJ2 Gohan (Initial) = SSJ2 Gohan (Full Power). " No one .. other than Gohan himself knew how strong he was ... He wiped the floor with PC (Full Power) , without even trying much. So , my figures would be :- MSSJ Gohan [Reluctant] : 100 Perfect Cell (@Gohan) : 110 MSSJ Gohan [Rage Boost] : ~180 Perfect Cell (Full Power) : 220 SSJ2 Gohan (with Rage Boost , Suppressed) : ~250 [if u ask how did Gohan get those hits on ... i would say he just increased his power for the hits , and then brought it down again] Super Perfect Cell : 600 [Full power] SSJ2 Gohan (with Rage Boost , Hypothetical Maximum) : 1000 [around 800 ... as i use 4x Multiplier for SSj2 + 200 (Rage boost)] Now ... SPC thought he's >= SSj2 Gohan [ which was a big mistake on his part ] SSj2 Gohan Still had that Rage Boost and was still Suppressing .... to SPC 's level .... But once he lost more than 50 % of his power while saving Vegeta .... He lost that Rage Boost ... Why ? Becoz he Gave up ... see that scans Scan 1 Scan 2 Scan 3 Now ... he didnt suppress anymore at this point becoz he lost hope . I think , if he would not have given up , he would have retained the Boost .... Just Before Vegeta hit SPC with the Big Bang Attack , SPC used his Full power to (almost) defeat Gohan.. Once hit ... SPC was distracted ... his Kamehameha's Power went down ... All Goku did was talking to Gohan .. making him regain his rage boost in that Final Push of FS Kamehameha , obliterating SPC... {proving that less than 50% SSj2 Kid Gohan [With rate boost]} ~ SPC {Full Power}
I would put SSJ2 Teen Gohan at 640 ... [note that i put SPC at 620 ... almost equal] ... and this number dont include the Rage boost .... [Compare to SSj2 Kid Gohan (without Rage Boost) at 800 .. thats 80%] And .. Gohan was Not Angry in that way in the Buu Saga ... [Until he went to Supreme kai's World]
I Disagree .... Supreme Kai didnt see anything of Gohan's Full Power Now consider this : U are a Chess Player ... u are very good and u play at the top level tournaments.. and u became the best player in ur area , beating ur enemy ... he was the best until u beat him..... u can make excellent moves that really threatens ur opponent .... Now .. u stop playing Chess for 7 years [No training at all] ...... and then decide to play in the same tournament again and take 30 days to train urself , getting ready.... When u play against players lower than ur level ... u will find that u win easliy . ... and see that u can do less tricky moves without much problem But when u again play against ur enemy [consider that he trained and kept his level intact .. didnt gain anything , nor lose ] .... u will find that u can keep up against him only till he uses moves that are easier to handle .... when he starts to make harder , more threatening moves , u feel u cant keep up to that level and lose quickly This ^ EXACT THING had happened to Gohan .... He told Dabura to use his true strength ... but dabura didnt .... coz he considered him a trash .. so .. Gohan .... stayed in his MSSj form .. opting to wait .... and had a disadvantage against dabura .... he could fight as SSj2 ... but remember ... SSj2 is Not a Joke .... a large amount of energy is needed to hold it .... when the fight would have been dragged ... Gohan .. who didnt use SSj2 for 7 years becoz he didnt need to .... will have difficulty to hold the transformation ... just like Freiza had problems to hold his 100% Power ... Gohan would have lost energy quickly ... as he didnt master the form like Goku and Vegeta did .... Thus .. my Final Power chain would be : SSj2 Goku = SSj2 Majin Vegita >SSj2 Kid Gohan [Rage Boost] > SSj2 Teen Gohan ~ SPC {Full Power} > Dabura Full power > Dabura {@ gohan}~PC (Full power) > MSSj Kid Gohan (without RAGE BOOST)~MSSj Teen Gohan Now ... one more thing ... my final Logic : Dabura {@ gohan} being Stronger than MSSj Teen Gohan ... he had an advantage .... But if Gohan was SSj2 .. he would be more confident ... and would say things like : "Come on Dabura ....what happened ? .... failing to keep up with me ? " .. and SSj2 Gohan would have an advantage......
I dont really give a Damn to Supreme Kai's Thoughts .... he feared Pui Pui ... he was shocked to See yakon at Stage 2 ... and HE WAS TERRIFIED of Dabura .... He wanted to gang up on Yakon .... He underestimated the Saiyans greatly ......... and later realized he made a mistake ..... the only thing he was right was about buu And Dabura ............ what can i say about him ... he said Buu was an Idiot while both Gohan and Goku .... and Vegeta (to an Extent)..... felt that he had a great evil power deep inside him This proves that Dabura CAN NOT read "Ki" like the Z Warriors .... so .. i dont buy anything he says ..... With this .. i end .... With all that i had to say .. i believe that Gohan used SSj to fight against Dabura .... not SSj2 Edited by DSB, Jan 15 2013, 05:34 PM.
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| * Yu Narukami | Jan 15 2013, 09:57 PM Post #15 |
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Izanagi!
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Well, I'd like to cover a few things in my final post. 1) I do disagree with you regarding MSSJ Gohan and his true power. I think that he was showing next to all of it; the power-up suggested, to me at least, that Gohan was emitting all of his ki. So, essentially, MSSJ Kid Gohan (Full Power) = MSSJ Kid Gohan (@Cell). Regarding the rage boost, its a really weird subject. We're never told exactly how it works. But I believe that in between Guru's power-up and that display of a rage boost, Gohan's potential rose along with his resting and fighting power. His power was stated by Vegeta to be continuously increasing during the confrontation with 1st, 2nd and 3rd form Freeza. Guru's power-up must've been very strange; if it was just an unlock, it would've been a one-time power-up, but it was a constant one. With SSJ2 Gohan, I firmly believe that their was a similar situation; either Gohan hadn't accessed all of his hidden potential with the transformation, or his potential ceiling increased along with the transformation. So, whilst he couldn't access half of his ki, he could still access his potential, which I think is enough to bring him over 2x his 50% self. Yeah, using different multiplier will lead to different conclusions. If you've got a smaller SSJ2 multiplier, then you'd have to have Cell closer to Gohan than I have. Nothing I can really say, just difference of opinion here. Jumping to the Boo Saga, even if Gohan had trouble controlling the SSJ2 form, wouldn't he use it for a quick finish? He could be testing Dabura, but it would make no sense. The fate of his friends and the Universe would depend on his performance, he wouldn't mess around; he'd try and finish it as quickly as he could. Plus, everyone knew that he could transform into a SSJ2 at the Budokai. Personally, I think it would've been brought up if he wasn't in that form. Instead, only his power and anger are questioned Dabura may not be the best at sensing ki, but he could tell when the 7 people following Spopo and Yamu were up in the mountains concealing their energies. He must have at least some basic ki sensing and, as such, must've been able to judge Goku's SSJ2 Burst. Still being confident then means that he's > SSJ2 Goku (Burst) Nothing else to say, really. Its been a pleasure debating with you, DSB. |
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