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SSJ2 Vegeta pre majin vs SSJ2 Kid Gohan
Topic Started: Jan 12 2013, 02:21 PM (2,555 Views)
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miguelnuva
Jan 13 2013, 07:55 AM
MSSJ Goku was over USSJ Trunks.
Okay, no problem there.

miguelnuva
Jan 13 2013, 07:55 AM
As far as MSSJ being over SSJ Trunks(2nd trip) Trunks doesn't have to be cocky in order to suggest that he is around Goku or his Father at that point.
That's what I said. Isn't that what you use to argue that 50% Goku is over Trunks after the 2nd trip too?

miguelnuva
Jan 13 2013, 07:55 AM
Vegeta at most is 70% of Goku at the Cell games while Gohan is about 20 to 25% ahead of Goku.
Gohan could be a bit more, perhaps around 30-35% IMO.
miguelnuva
Jan 13 2013, 07:55 AM
Gohan is above the Speed that Cell was using against Goku so either Gohan is also over that Cell's power or Gohan being unwilling to fight is the reason Cell was able to beat him after increasing his Speed but let's do the numbers like I have above.
I tend to go with the latter, more or less.

I'd have it like Cell (Increased speed) ~ or >= Gohan > Cell (before speed increase) > or ~ Cell @ Goku > Goku.

miguelnuva
Jan 13 2013, 07:55 AM
Buu saga pre Budokai Vegeta states that Gohan might make a good challenge but he doesn't know due to the times of peace. Vegeta is expecting Gohan at either the same strength or at most 10% of his power gone.
He doesn't say anything about a challenge, just that Gohan had been resting and that he is now unsure of what the gap between them is.

miguelnuva
Jan 13 2013, 07:55 AM
I will assume Goku isn't that far ahead of Kid Gohan but the only things we have to go bye are Vegeta saying "At least your stronger than you son was we he fought Cell" and then Piccolo comparing Gohan and Vegeta.
'Twas a dub line. In the manga, the line is more like "Just as I thought! You're stronger than Gohan was at Cell..." or something like that. It tells us that there's a definite gap, but we don't know how big, but Piccolo's line lets us know that it can't be too big.

miguelnuva
Jan 13 2013, 07:55 AM
Full power Cell and up is so Big it all seems the same to the Z warriors so when Piccolo makes the comment we really have to think is it truth or is it just SSJ2 power is too big to Piccolo, I'll assume the former for right now and Goku is only a little ahead of Kid Gohan.
They don't really react to FP PC the same way as they do to Kid Gohan. Also, I believe the anime over-exaggerates it, the manga simply has them mentioning that the earth is shaking, it's a big chi, etc, with slightly worried looks on their faces.

miguelnuva
Jan 13 2013, 07:55 AM
Now the finally how big of gaps do you think that one would need to be a little or a huge amount of power. Going off their SSJ2 power I have something like this.

Vegeta: 85

Kid Gohan: 84

Teen Gohan: 70

SPC: 83

Goku: 100

Vegeta(CG SSJ2): 66

Goku(CG SSJ2): 75
Goku over Kid Gohan seems fine in my opinion. It's just Vegeta that's bugging me.

Power chains goes more or less like:

Goku > Kid Gohan; Goku >> PM Vegeta; PM Vegeta ? Gohan after 7 years (expected by Vegeta) >>> Teen Gohan.

By the way, somewhere I saw you say that Goku's only a little ahead of Kid Gohan. If that's what you think, then PM Vegeta can't be higher or on the same level. Even if you don't take his line to mean the gap is exactly the same, Goku should be stomping Vegeta all the same, just like he would at Cell Games.

Still fooling around with my personal Boo arc levels, I'd probably do something more or less like:

Goku - 100
Kid Gohan - 85
SPC - 83
PM Vegeta - 75
Teen Gohan - 55-60
CG Goku - 60
CG Vegeta - 42

I got Kid Gohan's advantage over PM Vegeta to be smaller than Goku's over Kid Gohan, that should be fair enough considering Vegeta's confidence and all.
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Nothing says the gap between Vegeta and Trunks changed after their second RoSaT trip. Stop fooling yourself.
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MAJIN_VEGITO
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vegeta would win without a doubt.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

MAJIN_VEGITO
Jan 14 2013, 12:32 AM
vegeta would win without a doubt.
even though it's already outright proven he's weaker?
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MAJIN_VEGITO
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Brofist
Jan 14 2013, 12:33 AM
MAJIN_VEGITO
Jan 14 2013, 12:32 AM
vegeta would win without a doubt.
even though it's already outright proven he's weaker?
not really. its just more lopsided logic coming from people who always think that they are right.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

:cool: May it now be decreed that using statements from the manga and basing your points upon those direct statements is now considered lopsided logic.

This is why people don't take you serious, why then is Pre-Majin Vegeta stronger than SSj2 Kid Gohan.
Edited by EMIYA, Jan 14 2013, 12:56 AM.
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Brofist
Jan 14 2013, 12:55 AM
:cool: May it now be decreed that using statements from the manga and basing your points upon those direct statements is now considered lopsided logic.

This is why people don't take you serious, why then is Pre-Majin Vegeta stronger than SSj2 Kid Gohan.
It makes better since to think pm Vegeta> Kid Gohan because of Vegeta's reactions to Gohan pre and post Budokai.

Vegeta complaining that SSJ2 Gohan lost power means before he transformed he doesn't think Gohan lost power.
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He was unsure of the gap between them even after he notes that Teen Gohan hasn't been training.

At the very maximum, that dictates that Kid Gohan ~ PM Vegeta, and that's ignoring the line about the gap between Goku and Vegeta staying the same after the Cell Games.

Try this:

Goku - 100
Kid Gohan - 85
Vegeta - 75

That's a ~1.13x ish advantage for Kid Gohan over Vegeta, with a ~1.17x ish advantage for Goku over Kid Gohan. Don't see what's wrong with that, honestly.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

miguelnuva
Jan 14 2013, 01:58 AM
Brofist
Jan 14 2013, 12:55 AM
:cool: May it now be decreed that using statements from the manga and basing your points upon those direct statements is now considered lopsided logic.

This is why people don't take you serious, why then is Pre-Majin Vegeta stronger than SSj2 Kid Gohan.
It makes better since to think pm Vegeta> Kid Gohan because of Vegeta's reactions to Gohan pre and post Budokai.

Vegeta complaining that SSJ2 Gohan lost power means before he transformed he doesn't think Gohan lost power.
That makes little sense.

Let's say Vegeta expects Gohan to be as strong as he was as a kid, he then realizes that he's wrong and that Gohan is now incredibly weaker than he anticipated. But this has no outcome on where Pre-Majin Vegeta is. Vegeta is almost furious without weak Gohan is but is constantly declaring how strong Gohan as a kid was, far far stronger as he puts it. It took a small burst of SSj2 from Goku for Vegeta to realize how much weaker he was. A burst that logically doesn't even come close to SSj2 Kid Gohan's power. Even as Majin Vegeta his power is still compared to Gohan's by Piccolo and the indication that he gap is very small is attributed.

But the gap between Gohan and SSj2 Gou/Majin Vegeta is far far less than that gap attributed to whta was being Goku and Vegeta in the Cell Games, a gap that has remained the same.
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Alex D. Boss
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Chapter: 426 (DBZ 232), P4.2-3
Context: Vegeta talks to Gohan
Vegeta: “At that time there was a large gap between our powers…But what about now? While you’ve been enjoying peace, I’ve continued to train.”
Bulma: “That’s right! He doesn’t work one bit! Just like your father! I guess Saiyans just don’t work.”
Note: "that time" was the Cell Games, presumably.

Can someone explains this ?
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Tien Shinhan
Jan 14 2013, 02:11 AM
Chapter: 426 (DBZ 232), P4.2-3
Context: Vegeta talks to Gohan
Vegeta: “At that time there was a large gap between our powers…But what about now? While you’ve been enjoying peace, I’ve continued to train.”
Bulma: “That’s right! He doesn’t work one bit! Just like your father! I guess Saiyans just don’t work.”
Note: "that time" was the Cell Games, presumably.

Can someone explains this ?
Vegeta is just noting that due to the lack of training from GOhan Vegeta is sure that gap which was truly gigantic between them has now begun to close, but by no means does it mean he's stronger.
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Tien Shinhan
Jan 14 2013, 02:11 AM
Chapter: 426 (DBZ 232), P4.2-3
Context: Vegeta talks to Gohan
Vegeta: “At that time there was a large gap between our powers…But what about now? While you’ve been enjoying peace, I’ve continued to train.”
Bulma: “That’s right! He doesn’t work one bit! Just like your father! I guess Saiyans just don’t work.”
Note: "that time" was the Cell Games, presumably.
He notices that Gohan has been slacking, while he himself has been training. If Vegeta was stronger than Kid Gohan, then he would not have to ask "But what about now?" That line indicates that he's unsure of the gap between himself and Teen Gohan at this point, and because he knows that Teen Gohan has been slacking, he shouldn't be expecting anything like what he saw at the Cell Games. That puts Vegeta lower than Gohan at the Cell Games as well.
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Alex D. Boss
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Ahh I get it. The point of "What about now" shows that Vegeta becomes closer to Kid Gohan at Cell Games.

But how are we sure that he is still lower than Teen Gohan?
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Tien Shinhan
Jan 14 2013, 02:16 AM
Ahh I get it. The point of "What about now" shows that Vegeta becomes closer to Kid Gohan at Cell Games.

But how are we sure that he is still lower than Teen Gohan?
Not lower than Teen Gohan, lower than Kid Gohan.

His line while he fights Goku about the gap having not changed since the Cell Games enforces that. That's a huge gap. Goku's advantage over Kid Gohan, on the other hand, is never implied to be so large,
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Vegeta has gotten stronger Gohan has gotten weaker. Vegeta know for a fact that the gap between them has now dropped but what he doesn't know is by how much. It's once Gohan actually fights in the tournament that he realizes just how much weaker Gohan has gotten.
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