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Base Saiyans vs. Piccolo; Participants: Brofist, and GridZero
Topic Started: Jan 11 2013, 08:45 PM (3,346 Views)
EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

I could probably agree with that. I'll admit to the fact that one of Piccolo's biggest gripes was the fact that Kaioshin was so above him in the Hiearchy. In truth I'm not sure if there would be a major difference between Piccolo and Kaioshin by ki alone.

As for Dabura, let's do this. Let's look at all the times he's apparently sensed something and see where the contradictions might be and if they can be explained at all. We're taking a pretty big jump if we just assume Dabura is affiliated with that race. It might be better instead to just see where is all the ki reading and where it becomes inconsistent, and then form an overall plan.

1.) Knew that everyone, Kaioshin and Kibito included were hiding on the cliff.

2.) Apparently can't sense SSJ/SSJ2 Goku when fighting Yakon. (I made the argument that because its on a different planet away from their locatoin, sensing would be harder) He didn't need a kili meter to sense the others on the cliff to know some of them had high power.

3.) He thinks Fat Buu is a piece of crap. Probably the biggest and most inconsistent issue here. He thinks Buu is crap, Gohan thinks if he uses his full power he can beat Bu.

We assume full power is SSj2. Dabura had trouble with SSJ Gohan.

So how do we deal with this? Because we've to get something down with Dabura's sensing before we can really get into the Piccolo vs Base Saiyans because I think that's going to be one of our main argumenting points.
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GridZero
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See, I don't think Dabura or Babidi's ki sensing can be trusted in the context of...ki sensing.

17. Pui-Pui [#BO2#PUI]
Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P3.1
Context: talking about taking energy from Goku and co.
Babidi: “Hehhehheh…That’s why I summoned them here. I wonder if Pui-Pui’s finished all 3 off by now? ”

So, Pui Pui > Suppressed Base Saiyans...

However...

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”

So, the question begs.

If Pui Pui was stronger than the 3 Base Saiyans who have "marvelous energy," why would he bother with all this?

Why didn't he just mind control Pui Pui and steal his energy like Spopovich and Yamu did to Gohan?

It's very contradictory.

As for Dabura.

He says the Base Saiyans have marvelous energy, but makes no comment on Piccolo or Krillin.

It is Babidi that calls them trash, and as I just mentioned, his ki sensing abilities are just a big poop.

16. Piccolo [#BO2#PIC]
Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.4
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Babidi: “Get rid of the trash besides those 3 [Goku, Gohan, Vegeta], then return to the spaceship right away. That way, I think those 3 will fly into a rage and follow you inside for sure.”
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

It's agreeable that's its very contradicting, that's the main problem.

By Dabura and Babidi's own statemets, Base Saiyans>Piccolo, unless Piccolo was somehow included in that three and Gohan just sucks or something.

But then, as you said, its seemingly contradicted on later points.

What we do?

Do we ignore them, do we take them for granted? Do we perhaps see if there's a point of recton? I know some people like to recton the SSj2 Gohan at the budokai.


Quote:
 
If Pui Pui was stronger than the 3 Base Saiyans who have "marvelous energy," why would he bother with all this?

Why didn't he just mind control Pui Pui and steal his energy like Spopovich and Yamu did to Gohan?


Pui Pui was probably part of Babidi's main force, as far as we know he's the third strongest person in their group besides Yakon and Dabura. Instead of sending Pui Pui out he probably wants him to stay at the "Main Gate" if you will and sends off lower lackeys to get the energy. Plus none of them realized that there were such strong people out there so instead of sending out someone important, just send out the two lackeys.

Also I'm not sure, but are you try to say that Babidi is thinking Pui Pui the combination of 3 base Saiyans? Or that Pui Pui> 3 base Saiyans sepeately? The latter would actually make sense if we consider the Saiyans being supressed. Pui Pui could very well> each Suppressed Base Saiyan but still be weaker than their combined powers. And with the way we know how fights usually work, unless people start combining attacks or something, numbers don't mean much if each level is too weak in comparison to the opponent's own.

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GridZero
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Honestly, I'd just flat out ignore them since they cause contradictions. Toriyama retconned Gohan's SSJ2 at the tournament, so at that part in the story, it's possible he was having trouble making it all consistent as he wasn't clear on the ideas he wanted to present and the strengths he wanted to portray.

Bro
 
Also I'm not sure, but are you try to say that Babidi is thinking Pui Pui the combination of 3 base Saiyans? Or that Pui Pui> 3 base Saiyans sepeately? The latter would actually make sense if we consider the Saiyans being supressed. Pui Pui could very well> each Suppressed Base Saiyan but still be weaker than their combined powers. And with the way we know how fights usually work, unless people start combining attacks or something, numbers don't mean much if each level is too weak in comparison to the opponent's own.


Yeah, the latter.

But if we consider the latter, it kind of makes no sense in the context that Babidi believes they all have marvelous energy yet Pui Pui who doesn't have marvelous energy apparently, can beat all three of them.

This seems to implies that...

The energy they're speaking about is not equal to regular ki in the context of strength.
Edited by GridZero, Jan 12 2013, 01:23 AM.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

I think what we'll have to do in regards to Dabura is just let people see how they view it and see how the judges view it in the end. I think we're going to have a little bit too much trouble going back and forth on it with all the statements, contradictoins and what not. For me I don't have a problem in believing their statemets or Dabura sensing until Fat Buu comes around where it really becomes strange but that's just me.

Toriyama would have had Base Saiyans>PIccolo by Dabura and Babidi's statements but then we wonder how that holds up in later parts.

I honestly think if we keep up with the Dabura part we're just going to go back and forth on it.

The least I'll say though is that yes, there is contradiction to the statements later on that makes it hard to take perfectly at face value.
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It may not be that Pui Pui doesn't have "marvelous" energy (as far babidi thinks) but its just that Babidi needs these powerful figures to be his side (Pui Pui, Yakon, Dabura) before he can make his move. There's only two ways we know of people gaining energy for Buu, an indirect means (Yamu and Spopovitch) or the directly way (Majin characters damaging opponents)

I'd say at one point while looking for so called "strong" people he found Pui Pui and put him under his wing as with Yakon and Dabura. They remained as his main forces where they would get the energy for him and or the indirect way as mentioned before.
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GridZero
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See, but that's the thing. If he thinks Pui Pui can beat the Base Saiyans that have "marvelous energy," why would Babidi not just get Dabura to steal Pui Pui's energy? Logically, someone that can beat three people with high energy must have higher energy, unless ki is not affiliated with the energy they speak of.

I don't see why'd he go through the trouble of getting people, and getting them to scout, if Pui Pui is right there and is > the people with "marvelous energy."
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

He probably just wants Pui Pui to be at his side because he feels he's more useful alive than dead. Babidi needs some sort of back up since he's so physiclaly weak and I'm sure he'd like at least a few strong people around.

Otherwise I could just ask "Why doesn't Babidi just get Dabura to beat the heck out of everything?" Since those damages would go to Majin Buu. But obviously Babidi had bigger plans in store. I'm pretty sure at any point once Pui Pui became useless to him he could get Dabura to kill him and take his energy but until then Pui Pui's doing his job might as well milk it for all its worth.

EDIT: Almost forgot to mention. Plus its a lot more beneficial getting more people to search for energy than it is to get one person to do it.
Edited by EMIYA, Jan 12 2013, 02:25 AM.
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GridZero
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Hmm, now that you say it, it would make sense for him to want a big entourage of people if he can't control Boo.

Going back now though to one of your previous arguments. (Dabura might not have sensed SSJ Goku/Burst SSJ2 Goku)

I have enough evidence now to disprove this, and hopefully disprove that Dabura can't really sense ki at all.

Your argument is that the fighters are transported to a different planet, thus too far away for Dabura to sense, correct?

My Claim: The entire spaceship is transported to whatever planet Babidi teleports the fighters to, thus rendering Dabura's inability to sense them because they're too far away to be wrong.

Proof: They're clearly still on Planet Zun in this panel, yet they follow the entrance to the next tier on the spaceship and end up there.

Scan


Edit: Second Scan. Sorry.

Second Scan


Edited by GridZero, Jan 12 2013, 02:36 AM.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

The ship scene does make sense of course it might mean that Babidi just wants an exact number and When Dabura is read that power to him 3,000 Kiri, while he is impressed that a so called "Human" could have it, he himself is more than confident in believing he can still win and easily at that. There may be a case where the idea of "Two people being too high that others can't measure it" may work the same way but in the opposite effect.

Dabura might be so above this "Specific" SSJ Goku and Yakon that to him, seeing Goku's transformation may not seem like a big deal.

Plus unlike any other time in which sensing was involved, Dabura is actually given a direct number and if Yakon gets his own power read, why not believe that Dabura also got his read by Babidi?

We have Goku:3,000 and Yakon 800. That's a 3.75 difference or IMO a >> kind of gap. Big enough to warrant tanking on a FP Cell vs SSj2 Gohan kind of level, maybe a bit higher a gap if you will.

Everyone thought Cell was pretty close to Gohan despite the contrary. Why not look at that in the opposite direction. Dabura is so high up (and the numbers and statements) apparently back that up that instead of seeing what might be a truly powerful transformation he just sort of scoffs at it until he's read the actual number.
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GridZero
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Brofist
Jan 12 2013, 03:33 AM
The ship scene does make sense of course it might mean that Babidi just wants an exact number and When Dabura is read that power to him 3,000 Kiri, while he is impressed that a so called "Human" could have it, he himself is more than confident in believing he can still win and easily at that. There may be a case where the idea of "Two people being too high that others can't measure it" may work the same way but in the opposite effect.

Dabura might be so above this "Specific" SSJ Goku and Yakon that to him, seeing Goku's transformation may not seem like a big deal.

Plus unlike any other time in which sensing was involved, Dabura is actually given a direct number and if Yakon gets his own power read, why not believe that Dabura also got his read by Babidi?

We have Goku:3,000 and Yakon 800. That's a 3.75 difference or IMO a >> kind of gap. Big enough to warrant tanking on a FP Cell vs SSj2 Gohan kind of level, maybe a bit higher a gap if you will.

Everyone thought Cell was pretty close to Gohan despite the contrary. Why not look at that in the opposite direction. Dabura is so high up (and the numbers and statements) apparently back that up that instead of seeing what might be a truly powerful transformation he just sort of scoffs at it until he's read the actual number.
I understand all of this, but wouldn't all of this prove that Dabura can't sense ki properly?

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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Can't sense ki "properly" certainly, it's the same thing I'd give to Kaioshin. We're shown that he has some measure of ki sensing but it's wack in many locations. I'm defintely not going to be calling Dabura an expert in Ki sensing but enough to have the very basics dow and its the same thing with Babidi I would suppose. They're way of reading ki is at best adequate.
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GridZero
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So with that clear, how can we take his estimation of the Saiyans, Piccolo, Krillin, Kaioshin and Kibito at the cliff seriously?

Since he cannot sense ki properly, and everyone was very suppressed, I'd say there is a massive room for error in his statement.

Since we more or less agree now (right?) that Kaioshin doesn't have readable ki and that Piccolo wasn't basing his opinion on him off of power, I think the only pillar left in this argument is Dabura's assessment.

Which I now find to be a weak argument, seeing as how he doesn't say anything about Piccolo or Krillin.

Babidi is the one that calls them trash, and his ki sensing skills are worse than Dabura's himself.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

We can take it seriously as a basis. Dabura goes up and senses 7 people, showing that not only can he sense, but he apparently also has a very good way of sensing being able to not only pinpoint the numbers out, but can also tell that Kaioshin and Kibito are with him. This shows that Dabura has some, quite acute ki sensing. The biggest difference is how he refers to everyone but the Saiyans as "trash" even if I have Base Saiyans>Piccolo I would probably be willing to at least put them closer to each other if need be.

But this is also a pretty heavy indication onf Dabura's arrogance that's he's shown a lot.

Everyone is apparently trash to Dabura.


Piccolo and Krillin...trash.

SSJ Goku...Trash.

SSJ Gohan...Trash.

But at the same time, just because Dabura seems to have inconsistencies on his sensing doesn't necessarily neab the intended message had changed. Toriyama's line was clearly meant in saying "Base Saiyans>Piccolo". What has happened is we're looking at the difference between how well Dabura can sense. it goes from being pretty darn good to to suddenly going on and off here and there which may even add into a combination of that arrogance.

in short if you ignore Dabura's statements, not only do you have to recton the ability of him to sense but then you you'd have to recton the statements on the Base Saiyans and Piccolo. You would basically have to recton and ignore everything that Dabura says because you just couldn't take it at face value anymore. It seems most of the things that come out of Dabura's mouth end up being contradictive.

All within about a volume+ and from Dabura's attack to the battle with Yakon, about 5 chapters. Lots of inconistencies so soon for Toriyama I'd say.

All in all, if we ignore Dabura's statements, the we ignore Toriayama's original message. Who knows he may not have been thinking when he wrote that, doesn't seem like he was thinking a lot when doig the Buu Arc.

If you want to, you could say much like people do with SSJ2 Gohan, Toriayama eventually tried to recton his previous statements, which only shows how bad the writing was for the Buu Arc.
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GridZero
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Bro
 
in short if you ignore Dabura's statements, not only do you have to recton the ability of him to sense but then you you'd have to recton the statements on the Base Saiyans and Piccolo.


I don't really have a problem with this, but isn't this how we treat the Gohan retcon? We just ignore that it happened in general because it causes a plothole.

Basis = Gohan Goes SSJ2 at Tournament, Kibito sees him and everything.

Problem = Kaioshin tells Kibito he hasn't seen poop from Gohan, yet we know this isn't true.

B + P = Retcon ; due to one statement here.

Now...

Lets apply this to the Dabura situation.

Basis = Dabura senses seven fighters, and says three have marvelous energy.

Problem 1: Dabura cannot sense that SSJ Goku is above him.

Problem 2: Dabura cannot sense that Fat Boo is ridiculously above him.

B + P (does not equal) Retcon ; here. I would just say that Dabura is wrong in his initial statement. There's no need for a retcon here if it's fixable by discrediting his statement about the fighters on the cliff. The Kaioshin situation isn't fixable because it's clearly a contradiction.

As I implied earlier, the "marvelous energy" Dabura tells Babidi about simply does not equate to ki strength.

It's another form of energy that they sense, IMO, that isn't restrained to just sensing Base form, but overall energy inside.
Edited by GridZero, Jan 12 2013, 04:59 AM.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

I'm not too sure, every time energy is introduced its based upon ki. It might be said in a different format but it's still energy and thus relating to Ki. Dabura and Babidi seem to use a Kiri measurement so Kiri is their ki. However this doesn't make Kiri fundamentally different from ki otherwise Goku (who uses ki) would be substantially different than those who use kiri.

As for SSJ Goku, there's a very good chance that Goku is holding back quite a bit and the numbers if we apply them to other multipliers help make that work.

Yakon: 800, SSJ Goku: 3,000

We can infer that Base Goku and Yakon so I'll put Base Goku at 800 Kiri also, though in truth I would put it a bit higher.

If we use the 50x SSJ multiplier (And the multiplier regardless of what is being used should remain the same whether its ki or kiri, it's jsut that the base numbers are different)

Goku should be at a whopping 40,000 kiri if he was at full power, even more.

Even if we used a 10x SSJ multiplier it would still be 8,000. Which would make SSJ Goku against Yakon 2.6x weaker than Yakon. Really they use a 3.75x increase. By that increase, Base Goku went from going around semi-Cell's level to around Initial Perfect Cell. It would be no wonder that Dabura felt he was so weak if he only increased himself to that much. Plus the point of the transformatoin wasn't even to drawn strength it was to draw light. It would be no wonder Dabura thought it was pathetic.

And now let's say we do ignore Dabura' statemets and anything involving that marvelous energy. Even then it doesn't mean clearly that Piccolo>Base Saiyans.

What we'd have to do now is see the aspect of how Piccolo stands up to Semi-Pefect Cell which I believe people put the Base Saiyans in. Which means we're going to have to look into Piccolo's accomplishments in the ROSAT and statements more carefully now again.
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