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Super Saiyan
Topic Started: Jan 6 2013, 04:27 PM (3,338 Views)
lunar2
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that doesn't work. ask any personal trainer. once you get too tired to do a challenging workout, a lesser workout won't give you any benefit. vegeta has spent years improving his training technique, he wouldn't make a rookie mistake like that.

@not telling: you mean like cell is stated to know the spirit bomb, but never uses it, or even attempts to use it? an earth based spirit bomb could destroy kid buu, imagine what it would have done to gohan.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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+ Clearin
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lunar2
Jan 9 2013, 02:16 AM
that doesn't work. ask any personal trainer. once you get too tired to do a challenging workout, a lesser workout won't give you any benefit. vegeta has spent years improving his training technique, he wouldn't make a rookie mistake like that.

@not telling: you mean like cell is stated to know the spirit bomb, but never uses it, or even attempts to use it? an earth based spirit bomb could destroy kid buu, imagine what it would have done to gohan.
Cell didn't have time to use the spirit bomb, much less one from every single Earthling on the planet.

As far as I'm concerned Cell can use the spirit bomb, nothing says he can't.
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+ Havoc_Wreaker
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wasnt the spirit bomb supposed to be used on only those not pure good
or something

and if he has the spirit bomb then he would know the drawbacks hence the not using it

and for the workout techinques like i said it could be not that it is
Edited by Havoc_Wreaker, Jan 9 2013, 02:19 AM.
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lunar2
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Clearin
Jan 9 2013, 02:18 AM
lunar2
Jan 9 2013, 02:16 AM
that doesn't work. ask any personal trainer. once you get too tired to do a challenging workout, a lesser workout won't give you any benefit. vegeta has spent years improving his training technique, he wouldn't make a rookie mistake like that.

@not telling: you mean like cell is stated to know the spirit bomb, but never uses it, or even attempts to use it? an earth based spirit bomb could destroy kid buu, imagine what it would have done to gohan.
Cell didn't have time to use the spirit bomb, much less one from every single Earthling on the planet.

As far as I'm concerned Cell can use the spirit bomb, nothing says he can't.
i wasn't saying he couldn't, i was just pointing out that there are loose threads all around the edges of the story, and that those loose threads don't actually imply anything within the story.

now, i will say that cell can't use the kaioken, or else he would have.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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+ Havoc_Wreaker
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why didnt goku use kaio ken in ssj then ?
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lunar2
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because he can't. he never learned to use kaioken to multiply that much power, so he didn't have the control necessary to pull it off.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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+ Havoc_Wreaker
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or AT just decided to drop the techinque cause ssj was introduced and if cell had used the techinque

it would be haxed and he had yet to master it
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+ miguelnuva
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Vegeta trained at 300gs there is nothing that contradicts it. Vegeta says he wants to do it in the Manga, in the Manga and in Kai we see 150g and Dr. Brief says he has to fix the machine so the gravity would go up.

So either Vegeta needs to start at 150 and go up or he is waiting for Dr. Brief to get the machine up to 300g. In Kai which is filler less almost we see 300g in Vegeta's training so now I ask this does Vegeta mention 300g during his ssj transformation in the manga like he does in the anime?
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lunar2
Jan 9 2013, 02:16 AM
that doesn't work. ask any personal trainer. once you get too tired to do a challenging workout, a lesser workout won't give you any benefit. vegeta has spent years improving his training technique, he wouldn't make a rookie mistake like that.
He could be using a technique called "drop sets".

If Vegeta had maxed out his gains in 300g, and Dr Briefs could not construct something stronger, then one possible way to push beyond would be to perform the equivalent of a "drop set".
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+ Ryebrid
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Nothing suggests that Vegeta didn't achieve 300g mastery. 150g is never or stated as his limit.

Also, Cell not using Kaioken can be for the same reason he didn't use the Spirit Bomb. He might know the techniques but he's not familiar with them. This is evident with the Kamehameha wave he fires at Piccolo in their first encounter.

Nobody wants to see recycled techniques anyway.
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lunar2
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however, 150g is already higher than the weight goku was using. even at 150g, vegeta should be pushing himself to the limit, unless you think vegeta is actually physically stronger than goku.

@anime, kai, etc. it doesn't matter what kai says. kai is not the manga, and is therefore not canon and not evidence towards the canon power or abilities of any character. why is this so hard to understand? DB manga + small portions of other AT mangas = canon. all other media of any type = not canon.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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+ miguelnuva
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lunar2
Jan 10 2013, 12:01 AM
however, 150g is already higher than the weight goku was using. even at 150g, vegeta should be pushing himself to the limit, unless you think vegeta is actually physically stronger than goku.

@anime, kai, etc. it doesn't matter what kai says. kai is not the manga, and is therefore not canon and not evidence towards the canon power or abilities of any character. why is this so hard to understand? DB manga + small portions of other AT mangas = canon. all other media of any type = not canon.
Why are you saying Goku's max is 100g's. Goku didn't go higher than 100g's because AT at the time made that the max the gravity room could reach, we have no idea how much gravity Goku could use in the Buu saga.

While Kai amy not canon to the manga you can use it as evidence. Kai is 90 to 95% filler free so if something happened it Kai that is backed by the Manga such as Vegeta training in 300g then it is okay to use this as evidence. Kai is more or less a direct translation of the manga therefore if there is no difference between the two then it is the same thin regardless of who created it.

Kai is what we would call in direct canon not non canon.

What we can ignore is Vegeta training in 450g in filler from DBZ.
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lunar2
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no. kai is a product of Toei Animation, not Akira Toriyama. nothing made by toei is canon. nothing. it doesn't matter how close it sticks to the manga, it isn't a manga. the fact that you are referencing kai just goes to show that the manga doesn't say it, or you wouldn't be trying to defend kai so much. so it's a filler statement.

and i never said anything about goku's max being 100g. he could definitely train in 150g, too, because he's as strong or stronger than vegeta. however, goku trained with 8 tons (plus 0.6 tons for his own body weight in 10g) on the grand kai's planet. vegeta at 150g is already 9.24 tons. he's already pushing himself harder than goku. at 300g, vegeta would weigh about 18.5 tons. he would be able to move in that gravity (kind of like trunks was in 150g), but he wouldn't be able to train in that gravity, because he would be too heavy to move freely.

if you are wondering where the character weights are from, they are from the SEG character volume (herms' guide to the SEG).
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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+ Havoc_Wreaker
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but das in base ja , what aboot supa saiyan ?

and i dont have to trust seg ,cause its not AT right

nor daiz right , cause both have there own issues

Edited by Havoc_Wreaker, Jan 10 2013, 01:03 AM.
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lunar2
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no, you don't have to trust the SEG. however, the numbers given for height and weight are about right for japanese characters, give or take a little. as long as no one besides piccolo gets over (or even really close to) 200, you should be alright.

ssj does increase physical strength, but 300g would be too easy in ssj, even worse than 40 tons was to ssj goku. 300g would be either way too hard or way too easy for vegeta, while 150g is just about right. that's why i say he never actually trained in 300g.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
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