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Some chains
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Topic Started: Jan 6 2013, 04:36 AM (449 Views)
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Accelerator
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Jan 6 2013, 04:36 AM
Post #1
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最強の能力者
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Im forming a list of chains to help in my responses for versus topics. Where do you put Base and SSjin Gotenks pre and post rosat?
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唄歌い
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+ Kyouks
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Jan 6 2013, 04:44 AM
Post #2
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SSJ Gotenks post >> Base Gotenks post >> SSJ Gotenks pre ~> SSJ3 Goku >> Base Gotenks pre > SSJ2 Goku.
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* Crashbreaka
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Jan 6 2013, 04:44 AM
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Captain Oblivious
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I goes:
SSJ2 Goku << Base Gotenks (Pre) << SSJ3 Goku </<< SSJ Gotenks (Pre) </<< Base Gotenks (Post) << SSJ Gotenks (Post) << SSJ2 Gotenks (Post) << SSJ3 Gotenks (Post).
I put it in colours so you can see it betterer.
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Accelerator
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Jan 6 2013, 04:49 AM
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Can you guys add Buu and Vegeta into those chains?
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唄歌い
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* Crashbreaka
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Jan 6 2013, 04:56 AM
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Captain Oblivious
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SSJ2 Vegeta </<< SSJ2 Goku / SSJ2 Majin Vegeta </<< Base Gotenks (Pre) << Majin Buu < Kid Buu =/< SSJ3 Goku </<< SSJ Gotenks (Pre) </<< Base Gotenks (Post) << SSJ Gotenks (Post) << SSJ2 Gotenks (Post) << Super Buu =/< SSJ3 Gotenks (Post). << Other Buu's.
In my opinion.
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+ Pyrus
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Jan 6 2013, 04:58 AM
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Uh oh, ***** storm coming. I might as well post my college thesis on this! II. Fusion
Spoiler: click to toggle 3. Goku introduces Fusion and states twice that if the boys perfect it, they'll definitely be able to beat Boo. The boys could only go SSjin, and Goku measured their full power for a reason, so that's what Goku assumed they'd beat Boo with, otherwise he would have stated they could beat him even without the use of the form, as Trunks later specifies beating Evil Boo in their regular state and not a transformed state. Also, Goku tells Piccolo that he told Boo a stronger fighter than him would come in 2 days; he never actually told this to Boo, but Piccolo doesn't know that. Now we have:
SSjin Gotenks (predicted) > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku
Supporting Quotes Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4 Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes Goku: “With these two, if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat him within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8 Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”
4. Goku leaves and the boys finally get Fusion right. Gotenks forms in Base first, and right away Piccolo tells him he's not strong enough to even think about beating Boo. Gotenks cockily disobeys Piccolo and leaves to fight Boo, but returns after a prompt butt-kicking, cementing Piccolo's statement. Although he gets his butt kicked, he was confident in fighting Boo, and Krillin and Yamcha also seemed to think he stood a chance. In order for Gotenks to feel confident, he would have to be comfortably ahead of SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta and Goku at the very least. We have:
SSjin Gotenks (predicted) > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku
Supporting Quotes Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5 Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.” Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P12.5 Context: After Gotenks takes off, saying he'll beat Boo Kuririn: “He-he’s pretty haughty, but just maybe he re-really will be able to take care of [Boo]…” Yamcha: “Ye-yeah…He sure seemed pretty confident…”
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3 Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…” Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”
5. The boys then fuse as Super Saiyans, and Piccolo immediately comments on SSjin Gotenks's power in a positive way, but questions if his speed is up to par; notice he doesn't question Gotenks's power, and he merely asked for a "little" demonstration of his movement. When Gotenks flies off and Piccolo finally catches up to him, Gotenks flaunts his speed and flies off again, but Piccolo shows no contempt except that Gotenks only has 1 minute left to fight Boo. Since nothing thus far contradicts it, we have:
SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku
Supporting Quotes Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5 Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.” Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3 Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…” Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”
Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3 Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little” Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”
Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P9.3-8 Context: Piccolo finally catches up to Gotenks Gotenks: “You’re slow. So you finally got here? Besides circling around the Earth several times, I even took a little afternoon nap. [ ] Fuffuffuh…So you can’t tell just from my speed just now? My super-duper incredible power…! …Which is to say that the test is over, and I’m going to go take care of that annoying Majin Boo right away…” *Gotenks takes off* Piccolo: “H-hey, you idiot! Kuh…! Wh-what a *****head…H-he already has only 1 minute left that he can stay merged. That dimwhit…!”
6. Evil Boo forms and Piccolo immediately rushes the boys into the Room of Spirit and Time, telling Krillin that they can't win as they are now. He also states Evil Boo is superior to Fat Boo in all aspects, including strength. We have:
Evil Boo > SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku
Supporting Quotes Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5 Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”
Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6 Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?” Goten: “He-he really has changed…” Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…”
7. The boys train for about 15 days (about 1 hour in the outside world). While still training, Trunks states that even with "regular Fusion," they should be able to beat Boo. When Base Gotenks actually forms, Piccolo thinks they might have a chance. This puts Base Gotenks above his previous Super Saiyan power by a decent margin at least.
Evil Boo ~ Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku
Supporting Quotes Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P3.5 Context: Trunks doesn’t like the idea of fighting Boo as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start Trunks: “I think…that we’ve already progressed so much that even in a regular state Fusion, we’ll be about equal with Majin Boo...”
Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5 Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!” IV. Arguments & Counterarguments
Spoiler: click to toggle 12. Goku was telling a white lie about Gotenks to give everybody false hope. Gotenks isn't stronger than Goku or Boo. Counter-argumenta. This is a common excuse to keep Goku ahead of Gotenks, either due to disbelief that two little kids could combine to make someone stronger than the main character, or blatant bias against the kids/Gotenks or for Goku, but it falls apart quickly. Why would Goku leave the fate of the entire universe in someone weaker than Boo? He might not make the smartest decisions sometimes, but he would never purposefully doom the entire universe. You might bring up his decision not to kill Fat Boo in response to that, but remember he had Gotenks as a backup plan. b. Piccolo, who knew SSjin 3 Goku's power and Fat Boo's power, had no problem allowing SSjin Gotenks to fight Boo. As brought up above, he only ever feared for Gotenks's safety when Gotenks had 1 minute left to of Fusion time. c. Piccolo never denied that SSjin Gotenks was exactly what Goku said he would be. When SSj Gotenks formed, the first thing Piccolo did was comment on his power. 13. Goku wanted the boys to use the Room of Spirit and Time in order to be powerful enough to beat Fat Boo. Counter-argumenta. Another common excuse for Gotenks detractors or Goku *****ers. This is easily countered by the fact that Goku specifically told Piccolo not to use the RoSaT. He said the boys would be powerful enough without it, and that the RoSaT should be saved for an emergency later in life. 14. Piccolo told the boys to train for the 1 day they had left. He wanted them to use the RoSaT. He obviously didn't think they could beat Boo. Counter-argumenta. What was he supposed to do? Let them lounge around doing nothing? Training even for a little bit would still benefit the Fusion. He even says that any "little" gains the boys make will benefit the Fusion, so he clearly didn't think the boys would progress that much in 1 day, if at all. And again, he was told not to use the RoSaT, so he wasn't going to do that. 15. Goku said using the boys was a gamble, so that means he really wasn't sure Gotenks would be strong enough. Counter-argumenta. His "gamble" comment wasn't about Gotenks's power. It was in direct reference to the boys being able to get the Fusion Dance down correctly in the 2 days they had allotted to them. Piccolo is the one who originally brings up this gamble, and he's speaking about time, not power, when he does so . 16. Goku was holding back against Fat Boo, so he wasn't at full power. Counter-argumenta. This is probably the most common argument made by those who don't believe SSjin Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) was stronger than SSjin 3 Goku. While it's true that it is never stated in the manga that someone can't suppress their power in a form they haven't mastered, it is heavily implied by the fact that nobody every does display this ability prior to mastering their form, and by Vegeta when he expresses respect and astonishment that Goku and Gohan figured out how to control Super Saiyan to the point where they were barely giving off any Ki and felt "natural" in the form. Instead of holding back power, it's more likely that Goku was holding back effort, as in pulling his punches. This is evidenced right at the beginning of Z when Raditz, who couldn't control his power, states that he'll begin using more effort in his attacks against Goku and Gohan . b. Goku stated he was barely used to the form after apologizing for taking so long to transform in front of Boo. Combined with the previous point, it's very unlikely that Goku was able to hold back any power. 17. Goku could only achieve full power in Other World, so he was never at full power against Kid Boo. Counter-argumenta. This is not true. It is never said nor implied that Goku can't achieve full power outside of Other World. Goku states at the beginning of his fight with Kid Boo that he was going to go all-out, then later when it's said that he could obliterate Boo with Super Saiyan 3, he admits he could've but missed his chance because he underestimated Boo's resilience and didn't account for the immense stamina drain of the form. During the process of charging up his power, Goku says that he'd gathered his power close to full, but that it was beginning to slip away from him. After Goku falls out of the form after being unsuccessful at gathering his power, he comments that the form eats up an excessive amount of Ki in a living body. Putting all of these comments together would indicate that Goku did in fact start the fight at full power, but due to his underestimation of Boo and overestimation of his abilities, he lost his window of opportunity, and his Ki was draining faster than he could gather it. Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6 Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…” Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6 Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!” Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.” Vegeta: “Eh?” Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.” Vegeta: “One minute?!” Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!” Chapter: 512 (DBZ 318), P1.6 Context: Vegeta asks Goku if he’s gathered enough ki to defeat Boo yet Goku: “I…I know..! I know, but…It’s strange… I gathered my ki close to full power, but…The ki which I al…already gathered has begun falling off…!” Chapter: 512 (DBZ 318), P10.3-5 Context: still with the ki-charging business Vegeta: “Ka…Kakarot…!! …Cut it out…! How long will it take? Do…do it now…N…not yet? Have you still not gathered the ki...!?” Goku: “Da…Damn it…Damn it…!! …It shouldn’t be…It shouldn’t be like this…!! My…my power…my power is…Fa…falling off…” *he reverts from Super Saiyan 3 back into his regular state* Chapter: 513 (DBZ 319), P1.2 Context: after Goku drops out of Super Saiyan 3 Goku: “Da-dammit…When I was dead, it was no problem at all…It seems that in the end, becoming a Super Saiyan 3 with a living body eats up an excessive amount of ki…” 18. SSjin 3 Goku's power was felt across dimensions. SSjin Gotenks's pre-RoSaT power wasn't. Counter-argumenta. Actually, yes, Gotenks's power was felt across dimensions like Goku's. Goku comments on not being able to sense the "kids' fused chi" during the time when SSjin Gotenks is fighting Evil Boo in the Room of Spirit and Time . This means he had to have felt it beforehand to notice that it wasn't there anymore. 19. The Daizenshuu says Gotenks wasn't even stronger than Vegeta until he trained in the Room of Spirit and Time, so Goku was lying to everyone. Counter-argumenta. That argument is debunked in this post and this post here. To put it bluntly, the Daizenshuu entry is both vague and incorrect in this case. And this post is basically a collection of links to other posts that help: http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8583393&t=8348696
And a thread by Nimbus that has a bunch of stuff for Gotenks's strength (no debate, just the evidence): http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8375536/1/
 [1] http://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.php?p=24987691&postcount=11 [2] http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8581748&t=8348696 [3] http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8581722&t=8348696
Edited by Pyrus, Jan 6 2013, 04:59 AM.
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Spoiler: click to toggle
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+ Kyouks
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Jan 6 2013, 05:07 AM
Post #7
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Super Boo in RST >>> SSJ Gotenks post >>> Initial Super Boo ~ Base Gotenks post >>> SSJ Gotenks pre ~> SSJ3 Goku >/>> Fat Boo >>> Base Gotenks pre >/>> SSJ2 Goku/Majin Vegeta.
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Accelerator
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Jan 6 2013, 05:23 AM
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Thanks for posting that short story KP :P
How does this look? SSjin Vegito >>> Buuhan >= Base Vegito >>> Buutenks >> Ultimate Gohan >>> SSjin 3 Gotenks > Super Buu > SSjin Gotenks (Post) > Base Gotenks (Post) > SSjin Gotenks (Pre) > SSjin 3 Goku >= Kid Buu > Fat Buu >= SSjin 2 Gohan (Post Z-Sword > Evil Buu ~ Base Gotenks (Pre) > Good Buu >= SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku > SSjin 2 Gohan > Dabura > SSjin Gohan
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唄歌い
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Jan 6 2013, 05:29 AM
Post #9
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Fat Boo >= Post Zeta Gohan, but other than that, yah.
Evil Buu as in Grey Boo? Nononono, the whole > parts of the whole.
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Accelerator
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Jan 6 2013, 05:32 AM
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Okay I'll switch that. And yeah doesn't Piccolo say that Anorexic Buu is even stronger than Obese Buu?
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唄歌い
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Jan 6 2013, 05:34 AM
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Last I checked, English dub only.
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Accelerator
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Jan 6 2013, 05:37 AM
Post #12
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Ah that's where I get it from. I fixed it, is the chain good now?
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唄歌い
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Jan 6 2013, 05:41 AM
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*kakashi thumbs up*
Now I won't take back your Xmas presents. :P
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Jan 6 2013, 05:45 AM
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- Kyouka Suigetsu
- Jan 6 2013, 05:41 AM
*kakashi thumbs up*
Now I won't take back your Xmas presents. :P
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唄歌い
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