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How strong was Gohan in the Android saga?
Topic Started: Dec 31 2012, 03:58 PM (5,316 Views)
Cobra
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Avatar Aang
Jan 3 2013, 10:51 PM
1st Form Frieza says himself that his power level in that form is 530,000.
I meant second form
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Alex D. Boss
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Krillin is stated to be relevant in the series , so he should be atleast more than a half power at Frieza 2nd form.

If you say Krillin got impaled by Frieza , thats because he wanted to save Dende. He managed to escape from Frieza after cutting his tail of and Vegeta and Piccolo sensed a huge powerlevel and Krillin belongs there too.
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Cobra
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Tien Shinhan
Jan 3 2013, 10:57 PM
Krillin is stated to be relevant in the series , so he should be atleast more than a half power at Frieza 2nd form.

If you say Krillin got impaled by Frieza , thats because he wanted to save Dende. He managed to escape from Frieza after cutting his tail of and Vegeta and Piccolo sensed a huge powerlevel and Krillin belongs there too.
Are you saying Krillin is at least 500K?

Krilin could have simply moved to the left or right an avoided Frieza's horn, maybe he was in shock.He managed to run away from Dodoria too.Everybody was dead by the time Piccolo was on Namek, Nappa was shocked when he was reading power levels over 1,000.How strong do you guys think Piccolo was before he merged with Nail?
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+ Pyrus
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At least 100k.

I'll just ask you, do you think someone at 50k would be considered necessary to beat someone at around 720k?
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Cobra
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Kamikaze Pyro
Jan 3 2013, 11:20 PM
At least 100k.

I'll just ask you, do you think someone at 50k would be considered necessary to beat someone at around 720k?
Unless they have some form of powerful magic like Bibidi or healing power, no.But power isn't everything Yajirobe, Bulma & Hercule is proof of that.


Zarbon & Cui considered Vegeta to be viable to beat Frieza if they teamed up together xd
Edited by Cobra, Jan 3 2013, 11:40 PM.
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Quote:
 
Unless they have some form of powerful magic like Bibidi or healing power, yes

50k is a mere 9% of 530k, let alone the ~635k that Vegeta was expecting.

How does that make any sense?
Quote:
 
Zarbon & Cui considered Vegeta to be viable to beat Frieza if they teamed up together xd

When?
Edited by Pyrus, Jan 3 2013, 11:44 PM.
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Cobra
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Kamikaze Pyro
Jan 3 2013, 11:44 PM
Quote:
 
Unless they have some form of powerful magic like Bibidi or healing power, yes

50k is a mere 9% of 530k, let alone the ~635k that Vegeta was expecting.

How does that make any sense?
Quote:
 
Zarbon & Cui considered Vegeta to be viable to beat Frieza if they teamed up together xd

When?
Krillin and Gohan did play a major hand in defeating Vegeta, maybe he thought they could do the same for him as support like they did for Goku.

In the manga and anime they offer to team up with Vegeta to take down Frieza. Granted, it was most likely because they were gonna die but they still offered.
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Alex D. Boss
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Chapter: 294 (DBZ 100), P2.2
Piccolo: “I feel an outrageously large ki far away…! Is th-this the monster called Freeza…!? There’s three huge ki close by…! That must be Gohan and the others…!”

I think Krillin is round 30,000 against Ginyu , against Frieza its rising to 300,000 , against Frieza 2nd form his chi is growing and even after healing power I'd say over 500,000 as half of Frieza's initial 2nd form IMO.

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P9.1-5
Vegeta: “We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…”
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+ Kyouks
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2nd form Freeza = "outrageously large ki"

Vegeta/Gohan/Kuririn = "3 other huge ki"

Differentiation between Freeza and the good guys, no differentiation between the good guys, why?
Edited by Kyouks, Jan 3 2013, 11:58 PM.
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Quote:
 
Krillin and Gohan did play a major hand in defeating Vegeta, maybe he thought they could do the same for him as support like they did for Goku.

Gohan was going to sit on the sidelines waiting for his tail to regrow while Vegeta hopefully weakened Freeza enough for Oozaru to work, and Krillin was going to use the Kienzan, which Vegeta could also do himself?
Quote:
 
In the manga and anime they offer to team up with Vegeta to take down Frieza. Granted, it was most likely because they were gonna die but they still offered.

Chapter: 268 (DBZ 74), P13.1
Context: Vegeta turned down Zarbon’s proposal to fight Freeza together…by killing him.
Vegeta: “If Freeza could be defeated just by teaming with the likes of you…then I wouldn’t have any trouble…”

Yet he and Gohan believe the three of them can beat at least 1st Form Freeza. This 50k thing is not working out.
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Cobra
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Cobra
Jan 3 2013, 11:53 PM
Kamikaze Pyro
Jan 3 2013, 11:44 PM
Quote:
 
Unless they have some form of powerful magic like Bibidi or healing power, yes

50k is a mere 9% of 530k, let alone the ~635k that Vegeta was expecting.

How does that make any sense?
Quote:
 
Zarbon & Cui considered Vegeta to be viable to beat Frieza if they teamed up together xd

When?
Krillin and Gohan did play a major hand in defeating Vegeta, maybe he thought they could do the same for him as support like they did for Goku.

In the manga and anime they offer to team up with Vegeta to take down Frieza. Granted, it was most likely because they were gonna die but they still offered.
@ tien In Kai, Vegeta was more particular about Gohan power than Krillin's. I think it was a mere bluff on Vegeta's part about Krillin just to shock Frieza into thinking he could lose.Anything Vegeta say's shouldn't be taken too seriously as proven throughout the anime/manga.

@ pryro Vegeta/Krillin/Gohan vs Frieza is almost the same as Goku/Krillin/Gohan vs Vegeta. Krillin and Gohan is merely support, clearly


If some can logically explain Krillin going from 13k to 100K+, I'll be convinced.
Edited by Cobra, Jan 4 2013, 12:11 AM.
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Cobra
Jan 4 2013, 12:08 AM
In Kai, Vegeta was more particular about Gohan power than Krillin's.
Same as the manga, but that's referring to Gohan's innate potential.
Cobra
Jan 4 2013, 12:08 AM
I think it was a mere bluff on Vegeta's part about Krillin just to shock Frieza into thinking he could lose.
Then telling Freeza about a little kid doing it would be sufficient enough. He's confident the whole time but only loses hope when Freeza actually transforms into his 2nd form.
Cobra
Jan 4 2013, 12:08 AM
Anything Vegeta say's shouldn't be taken too seriously as proven throughout the anime/manga.
Except when he isn't contradicted. Give me examples where Vegeta was literally wrong and I'll concede.

Cobra
Jan 4 2013, 12:08 AM
Vegeta/Krillin/Gohan vs Frieza is almost the same as Goku/Krillin/Gohan vs Vegeta. Krillin and Gohan is merely support, clearly.
Support can't do anything if they're weak.

How's Krillin gonna be of any support if he's weaker than one of the Ginyus when Goku using only 60,000 manhandled 2 of them at once? Kienzan? Vegeta can use that too.

Cobra
Jan 4 2013, 12:08 AM
If some can logically explain Krillin going from 13k to 100K+, I'll be convinced.
It doesn't need one because it's right there in the manga. The explanation is that Krillin's power had been steadily growing because of Guru's potential unlock. Who cares if a fan doesn't think it makes sense?
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Saiyan Femme
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Kyouka Suigetsu
Jan 3 2013, 07:39 PM
Yamcha called Krillin the strongest Earthling.

Doesn't change in the Boo Saga.

http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8578262&t=8387412
Yeah, I have that and even AT's quote in mind when I say I assume Tenshinhan to have surpassed Krillin in the Buu saga.

Yamcha last saw Tien at the end of the Cell saga, and at that time Krillin indeed was the most powerful human, but Yamcha has no way of knowing how strong Tien is during the Buu saga beyond maybe feeling his ki in the distance. 7 years of training vs 7 years of no or little training can change things, ask Gohan and Vegeta :p

And well, of course, AT's word is law and anyone can take that as a definitive argument and if that is that for them then that will always be that for them.
But from having read that whole interview and others he's done, I personally doubt Trolliyama put much thought in that answer, or even thinks about ***** like 'who's the strongest human?!' or 'is X as strong as Y in base level during Z saga?!?!?!?' anywhere near as much as we do, I doubt he's given much thought at all on the powers of the lowly humans during the Buu saga, especially considering their involvement in it.

Of course, since all we saw of Tien during the Buu saga is one page in the manga and 3 seconds in the anime, I have no way of knowing anymore than Yamcha how much Tien's power had increased by that point. But I'll still hold on to my assumptions because it seems like the most natural progress imo, which is that Krillin was the strongest human for the last 5 years of all the years of his life which he dedicated to training, and when training stopped being his priority and dedication in life then someone else surpassed him. It is quite the merit to hold for Krillin.

/end tl;dr
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+ Pyrus
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Quote:
 
In Kai, Vegeta was more particular about Gohan power than Krillin's. I think it was a mere bluff on Vegeta's part about Krillin just to shock Frieza into thinking he could lose.

We're using the manga, but anyway, Gohan thinks they can win too, so...
Quote:
 
Anything Vegeta say's shouldn't be taken too seriously as proven throughout the anime/manga.

Terrible, terrible way to go about things. Until he is proven wrong, he is right.
Quote:
 
Vegeta/Krillin/Gohan vs Frieza is almost the same as Goku/Krillin/Gohan vs Vegeta. Krillin and Gohan is merely support, clearly

The situations aren't similar at all. Goku didn't want their help. Vegeta did.
Quote:
 
If some can logically explain Krillin going from 13k to 100K+, I'll be convinced.

I already have, but I guess I'll repeat myself.

Vegeta turned Zarbon down for fighting Freeza, while both of them were at or near 30k. Adding one more person near that level would not have made a difference. People that weak will not make a difference against someone as strong as Freeza. Bring up the fight with Vegeta on Earth all you want, but by the time Gohan and Krillin intervened, Vegeta was already weakened quite a lot and was not anywhere near the 18k he started at. Not to mention neither of those two did anything except use Goku's pre-made Genki-Dama, turn Oozaru, and fail with a Kienzan.

What would they do against Freeza? Gohan couldn't transform. The Kienzan wouldn't work. Simple power is all they have left. Vegeta was near even with a 530k fighter, and certainly couldn't take on someone much stronger than that, which is why he required the help of Gohan and Krillin.

Chapter: 291 (DBZ 97), P2.1
Kuririn: “This Freeza must be really strong if Vegeta needs even our power…”

There's also Piccolo not differentiating between Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillin, while he does differentiate between the group and Freeza. There'd be no point to lumping Vegeta with Gohan and Krillin if they were so far apart; he wouldn't even need to consider the weaker powers.

And last but certainly not least, it seems you ignore the tense of what Vegeta says here:

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P9.1-5
Vegeta: “We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…The squirt in particular hides so much inner strength that he doesn’t even know it himself…”

I'm pretty sure that's the present tense, not past tense, meaning their power is still rising at that point. It's only after he talks about the both of their powers that he brings up Gohan's gimmick.

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P13.6
Context: after grappling with Vegeta for awhile, after Vegeta said they could win
Gohan: “It-it’s true…! If we 3 fight together, we might really be able to manage something…H-he really is absolutely incredible, but we’ve gotten better too…!”

You can't manage something when two-thirds of your team is complete fodder.

The fact is their powers rising was a blatant plot device. It doesn't matter if you don't think it makes sense because it's stated right there in the manga to be the reason why they're so strong.
Edited by Pyrus, Jan 4 2013, 12:28 AM.
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Saiyan Femme
Jan 4 2013, 12:21 AM
Kyouka Suigetsu
Jan 3 2013, 07:39 PM
Yamcha called Krillin the strongest Earthling.

Doesn't change in the Boo Saga.

http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8578262&t=8387412
tl;dr
Why not take the only word we have? It's not as though it's contradictory to anything.
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