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| SuperSaqer's Power Level list | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 31 2012, 11:41 AM (2,156 Views) | |
| Battle Power | Jan 2 2013, 09:26 AM Post #16 |
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About the list, it's completely fine. I got the idea of putting them (PL Lists) on my signature from you anyway. Are you scaling these power levels with early-DBZ readings, or making your own thing? I say this because I don't think Roshi would lose so much in a few years, and there are some other few things I'd suggest on as well, if you're trying to scale it, that is. I don't see anything I highly disagree with, other than your training gains for the 21st, I think they're extremely high. I don't see Yamucha gaining 10X+ by training alone, for example. Other than that, only a few things I think you should really change: 1. Yajirobe (Sword) completely stomped Cymbal. I'd put him (Cymbal) weaker than you have it, Piccolo said Tambourine was clearly his strongest minion too, the gap you have is too close for that kind of statement. 2. The gap between Piccolo Jr. and Kami should be bigger. Piccolo said even if Kami teamed up with the others and went for him, he'd easily take care of them. Piccolo Jr. should be at least on the easy-win range IMO. |
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Every villain is the hero of their own story. [Power Level List] Dragon Ball - Updated [Power Level List] Saiya-jin Saga [Power Level List] Freeza Saga [Comparative Power List] Cell Saga | |
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| + supersaqer | Jan 2 2013, 10:10 AM Post #17 |
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Transcendent
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Yeah, I am scaling with early-DBZ readings. Base Roshi is around 139, and Goku was putting a good fight against him. The gap should be at least 5%, but I put it around 7% which is good enough. Yamcha was beaten by a wave from Roshi, and I think a 1.5x is a good gap unless your doing your own levels. Okay. But that would surpass their official levels by miles. Edited by supersaqer, Jan 2 2013, 10:13 AM.
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| Alex D. Boss | Jan 2 2013, 02:29 PM Post #18 |
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Lol , there aren't even power levels in DB if I go by that logic , its all about techniques,skills and strenght , specially in tournaments. Tien means 'by actual ability' when Goku fires kamehameha surprisingly backwards to Tien , and then loses with hitting the car when he had the advantage to win by his own 'actual ability'. Tien's plan: Uses Tri beam , destroys the floor , is surprised that Goku jumps into the air and expects Goku to lose since Goku can't fly.Goku uses a smart move to let them fall into the ground ( notice PWLS are not relevant here ,its all about the skills now ). Roshi laughs there, but his quotes gives a serious message. Chapter: 134, P11.1-2 Tenshinhan: “But you have the right to take [the prize money]. It was just luck that I won…By actual ability, unfortunately I lost…” Kame-sennin: “Hahhahhah, luck is a part of one’s overall ability too. Anyway, Goku managed to learn a lot by meeting a master like you.” What roshi says is actually right , let me give an example: Krillin vs Chiautzu , Chiautzu has the advantage to win , he controls Krillin and lets him almost jumping out the ring , but then Krillin tricks Chiautzu for letting him count , Chiautzu fails and Krillin beats him.If he never came up with that idea he would've lost. Everyones counts this as Krillin>Chiautzu. Its the same as Tien vs Goku , but no one would accept Tien>Goku because Goku is a hero, the main character he cannot be weaker than a Human. Goku: “Hehehe, that’s right.” Roshi also says that Goku learned so many things from Tien , Those 2 know that there is no way that Goku>Tien is an result in the end. |
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| + Kyouks | Jan 2 2013, 02:46 PM Post #19 |
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Strength is a big deal. Check out Yamcha vs Shen, did Yamcha's Spirit Ball technique help much? Did Tien's Taiyoken do much to Goku? His 4-arms whatever it was? It's about power, even back this early in the series. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8591394&t=8390287 Oh, yeah, I remember now. Tien resorted to a life-risking move why? Wrong. We don't say Krillin > Chaozu because he had a silly plan that won him the fight, that's silly. We put Krillin stronger because he was stronger. Chaozu's psychic powers are un-related to his power level, just like how Tien's Kikoho is un-related to his power level. Goku learned plenty from Roshi at the 21st. Do you think Roshi > Goku at the 21st? Goku learning things from Tien doesn't mean there's no way Tien can be weaker. Tien's the more seasoned fighter. He's the "master" here, Goku's a kid. If we're gonna use arguments like this, then Tien stating Goku's abilities were better means there's no way for Tien > Goku. Goku's got multiple abilities that are better, Tien's got just luck (and the Kikoho). What now? Btw, look at the luck line. It says he won just by luck. If it was 'just' by luck, then surely power isn't a factor? By the way, last time I posted this, you completely ignored it and addressed a single issue that I was mistaken on. Maybe reading it one more time will help? http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8591394&t=8390287 Edited by Kyouks, Jan 2 2013, 02:49 PM.
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| Alex D. Boss | Jan 2 2013, 03:23 PM Post #20 |
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Like I said before , Goku's attacks didn't damage Tien either. Tien would win anyway if he didn't keep Goku alive , he wanted to save Goku and let him lose in the sky. Goku tricked him somehow using Kamehameha otherside and hitted him so he can land after Tien on the ground. There is no point that Goku was stronger than Tien in 22nd budokai. I never ignored that post... http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8591470&t=8390287 Since Herms used that quote too in his translations ,I can see that as a answer to Tien's quote about the actual ability. Oh yeah wait , How come Chiautzu's psychic techniques are un-related to his power? BS. |
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| + Kyouks | Jan 2 2013, 03:27 PM Post #21 |
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This is the point you corrected me on before, why is it that you're not addressing the rest of the post? I know that. That's not relevant. Kikoho > Goku, let's move on. Didn't read the rest of the post, den? You didn't address everything, and you're doing the same thing now.. Psychic powers don't make someone's power level go up. Does Kaioshin's magic make him > SSJ2 Gohan? |
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| Alex D. Boss | Jan 2 2013, 03:51 PM Post #22 |
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Chapter: 129, P6.4, P7.1 Context: after Tenshinhan thoroughly attacks Goku Goku: “You really are strong. I’m flabbergasted.” Tenshinhan: “That’s my line. You’re an amazingly tough bastard…” Goku: “Knowing you, you won’t die even if I put out my full power, so it looks like I can go all out!” Chapter: 131, P11.1 Chaozu: “This is the first time I’ve seen Ten-san fighting all-out…I want to see how the match will end too…” Both of them goes all out , each attack of those 2 damages them or not. Goku never overpowered Tien. Chapter: 1, P5.6 Context: said after Goku hits Tenshinhan on the head. Goku: “That didn’t knock you out? Wow, you’re tough!” In the end , its stays the same.
1. Shin forced Chaozu to paralyze that Tien could KILL Goku easily since he does not wanted a long match , he wanted to let Tien kill him unfairly. 2. Tien uses that Tri beam to win what his goal was , it was a plan to destroy the platform and let Goku lose since he can't fly , it has nothing to do with "Oh no Goku is stronger so I use a strong attack to destroy the ring' 3. Tien was not stronger than Goku , neither Goku than Tien. It took too long so Tien decided to use a plan to win , just like how Roshi did with the feet thing. 4. Goku is NOT STRONGER than Tien ; I don't see any damn way around this neither!? Edit: Chauzo? Power up? Its not relevant to use power levels in this saga. Skills were more focused here. Specially in tournaments. Edited by Alex D. Boss, Jan 2 2013, 03:55 PM.
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| + Kyouks | Jan 2 2013, 04:21 PM Post #23 |
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You mean to say you missed this? http://i40.tinypic.com/eqb6uh.jpg Note the fact that Goku, using 2 arms, is overpowering a Tien who is using 4 arms. The two are equals how...? What does he care if the match is long or not? All he wants is to kill Goku. He also doesn't care about doing it unfairly, the fact that Tien is even meant to kill Goku is "unfair." But all in all, it's still a fair point, so I'll give you that. Look at the measures Tien is going to so he can win. First off, he's willing to use a life-risking attack. Secondly, he is exploiting Goku's inability to fly as a means of him earning the victory. Why would he have to come up with a plan to exploit this disability if Tien could've won without it? That's odd, because a few posts ago, I saw you post Tien > Goku. Tien doesn't care about the length of the match, he's excited to fight someone like Goku. But he also wants to win. Being the fighter that he is, if he can win by fighting for an extended time, the more enjoyable route, he'll take that route. He goes with a cheap, risky plan to beat a kid, why? Then why are you debating the power level of a character? Edit: I'm also going to add in the fact that, after Tien uses the Taiyoken to blind Goku, Goku runs off, gets Roshi's sunglasses, and is able to land a clean one of Tien. First off, Goku would have to have the sunglasses on his eyes before the light of the Taiyoken was activated, otherwise he'd be blinded. Secondly, because Tien didn't realize what Goku was doing, Goku would've had to run off and gotten the sunglasses right when Tien was about to activate the technique. After that, Tien charges Goku, only to get punched in the face and/or gut (forget which, exactly). I would say this is a clear indication that Goku's a bit faster, wouldn't you? Looking at the fact that Goku overpowered Tien's 4 arms using 2 arms, meaning that Goku's 2 arms alone were faster and more maneuverable than Tien's 4 arms (they did the work of 8 arms, mind you), the notion that Goku is a bit faster than Tien seems pretty set into stone. And because there is never a differentiation made between Goku's speed and Goku's power later on, we can only assume that Goku's speed and power correlate here; saying otherwise would be conjecture and ignoring part of the evidence we've got. Oh, and the hits that Goku landed prior to the Taiyoken pissed Tien off quite a bit, whereas Tien's "Volleyball" thingy or whatever hardly fazed Goku in the slightest. Edited by Kyouks, Jan 2 2013, 04:28 PM.
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| Alex D. Boss | Jan 2 2013, 05:21 PM Post #24 |
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So?Goku is overpowering him that moment means he is stronger in general of the fight? Its not that Tien couldn't keep up with him anymore.Altough he said that he was humiliated by that attack , but he isn't still weaker than him during the match. Chapter: 1, P5.6 Context: said after Goku hits Tenshinhan on the head. Goku: “That didn’t knock you out? Wow, you’re tough!” Goku expects to K.O Tien , but he is wrong , he knows he can't be above Tien.
How would we know who would've won without Tien using Tri beam? It would be too long to continue , so this attack was needed anyway.
Yeah I said that because of the results , I know it isn't reason to put Tien above Goku of course.
The fight was already too long to continue , so he came up with a plan to defeat him , its not that he uses a unfair attack to trick Goku since he deserves in the end what he gets. A Victory , what he self did it.
Its debatable , but if you think about it , pwls were never stated in DB. Thats not a fact to show who is faster since Tien expected Goku being blinded , so he attacks without being worried for a counterattack. When Tien uses 4 arms , that gives a advantage for more power not speed , so of course Goku's attack shows faster. |
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| + Kyouks | Jan 2 2013, 05:40 PM Post #25 |
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If Tien wants, he can speed up his arms too. He's seen Chapa-o's speedy arms thing, and Tien has shown that he's very proficient in replicating techniques, as he got the Kamehameha down pretty quickly. He's got 4 arms, so it should be easier for him to do what Goku did to him. Goku did the work of 8 arms using 2, and Tien couldn't keep up. All Tien had to do was move his arms faster so that he could at least match Goku, but he didn't. That means that that was as fast as he could get using 4 arms, and Goku with 2 arms was a bit faster. It's very important to note when comparing the two fighters. Goku not knocking out Tien simply means the power difference is small. I'm not suggesting a big gap. It'd probably be even smaller than Goku/Freeza or Goku/Kid Boo. Tien is right up there with Goku, there is no denying that. Neither damage each other too much, at first it looks like a Yamcha/Hungry Goku type thing. There are only few instances that suggest Goku had an edge, which is why I'm only suggesting a slight edge. If Goku expected to knock out Tien with a blow that quickly, he'd be expecting Tien to moderately weaker than him. Tien was fine, so this illustrates that he's either equal, slightly weaker, or slightly stronger. The evidence I have above points to him being slightly weaker. If Goku is, say, 100, then the lowest I'd put Tien would be 97. Tien coulda continued all he wanted. Remember, he wants to enjoy this match. He hasn't been pushed this far in god knows how long. You should also consider the gamble he's taking not to himself, but in terms of Goku. He had just told Tsuru Sennin that he wouldn't kill Goku in their fight, and yet he's using a technique that could potentially kill Goku. What if Goku isn't fast enough to dodge? He's dead. And once again, he's exploiting the fact that Goku can't fly to his advantage. Flying's a critical skill right here that isn't power-related, and it certainly gives Tien an edge in this situation. It honestly seems like it's Tien's only option to bring in victory; if he was Goku's equal, he could win without doing this while partaking in an enjoyable match between 2 warriors or whatever, because not only would he not be weaker, he'd be the more seasoned fighter, the "master" in Roshi's words. Remember, Goku learned from Tien, not the other way around. I don't know if that means Tien is necessarily more skilled, but Tien is certainly more cunning and smarter, while Goku is naive, so for him to resort to such a maneuver means he can't win without it. The Taiyoken thing is more of a debatable thing. I feel that it shows Goku is slightly faster, not because he punched Tien, but because he seemed to move a greater distance in a shorter amount of time. Anyways I think I've flushed out everything I have. So, do you agree to having Tien at, say, a 1~3% disadvantage against Goku or no? |
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| Alex D. Boss | Jan 2 2013, 06:03 PM Post #26 |
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Goku did better against Tien with 4 hands , but after he returned with 2 hands , the fight continued equal.It shows that Goku's technique was better than Tien's thats all.
There is no point to me that shows Goku>Tien. Tien likes how he got a strong opponent he never expected that from Goku to be this strong , Goku says that the same too. Those 2 rivals eachother at this point , I see them equal.
Tri beam is an attack that Tien learned and created it , why shouldn't Tien use this if its has a advantage to decides who wins. It can go about 20 episodes further sure , but of course AT is going to bring something to end it somehow. Tien also says that he won't kill Goku and expects to see Goku in the sky.
The Taiyoken was a slow attack in the beginning if you noticed , it could be.
I'm not saying this as a fanboy or whatever , even if it was another person , I'd say equal. |
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| + Kyouks | Jan 2 2013, 06:22 PM Post #27 |
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Didn't say Taiyoken was slow, I was comparing Tien and Goku. Goku's 'technique' was just moving his arms really fast. Tien couldn't do the same, despite having copied the Kamehameha already, meaning he could go no faster. Goku with 2 arms > Tien with 4 arms. That shows a clear advantage. If I recall, after Tien's 4 arms thingy fail, he decides to use Kikoho. Kikoho won't kill Goku if Goku dodges it. If he can't dodge it, bye-bye Goku, which goes against what Tien told Shen. Desperate measures. Obviously AT is going to end it, but that doesn't mean you can ignore the context of it all. Goku's trumped the Taiyoken (arguably not related to the power, but he did) and the 4 arms thang. Tien's got nothing left aside from his power and battle wits, yet he resorts to the Kikoho. Sure, AT wanted to end it, but that doesn't mean we can disregard in-universe explanations. Anyways, good deal. Let's not derail this thread anymore, it's saqer's list. Later. |
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| Alex D. Boss | Jan 2 2013, 06:57 PM Post #28 |
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No after Tien's 4 arms , Goku grabs Tien's legs and has him on lock then Tien managed to survive it. Goku says "You're strong" then Tien talks like he has the advantage to win , its not like he can't defeat Goku anymore or whatever. Tien also points out that Goku won't dodge this attack , so Goku knows about it ( He also talks to Chauzo that he won't kill Goku no matter what ) Thats all: Still this Goku ~ Tien |
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| + Kyouks | Jan 2 2013, 07:08 PM Post #29 |
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That's filler, IIRC, and it contradicts nothing I've said regardless. |
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| Alex D. Boss | Jan 2 2013, 07:19 PM Post #30 |
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You sure thats filler? Its a great moment of Tien when Chiautzu wanted to do the trick again while Tien refuses and wants to do it in his own ( this is during when his 2 arms dissapearing ). |
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