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Kaioshin vs Initial 20
Topic Started: Dec 22 2012, 05:30 AM (1,765 Views)
Animelover5487
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The humans showed up to fight the androids so I have them somewhere in the same league as Freeza since it would make no sense for them to think they would be of any use if they were any weaker after feeling how strong SSJ Goku and Trunks were. And the Android arc Base Saiyans are implied to be above the humans and Initial Piccolo. 20 said Initial Piccolo was the 2nd strongest on the battleield and Initial 20 was far stronger than him. Also post energy 19 stomped a Sick SSJ Goku who was far stronger than the humans. So it goes like this.


SSJ Saiyans > Piccolo > Post energy 20 > Post energy 19> Sick SSJ Goku > Initial 19 and 20 > Base Saiyans > Initial Piccolo > Freeza > Gohan > Humans


So Kaioshin's one shotting Freeza feat becomes ***** even at the start of the Android arc.
Edited by Animelover5487, Dec 22 2012, 10:03 PM.
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IllogicalGlory
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Furious

Animelover5487
Dec 22 2012, 08:53 PM

He thought that defeating Pui Pui was such a big deal and was stunned by how easily Vegeta defeated him implying that he cant do the same. Piccolo > Kaioshin makes the most sense power gap wise since Dabura is implied to be above Base Saiyans and was only slightly better than a SSJ Gohan who slacked off for 7 years. Also not to mention that SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta were implied to be rivals with Kid SSJ2 Gohan.


Piccolo was probadly only scared because he thought Kaioshin was the Grand Kai and that the Grand Kai would be dimensions above him.


He isn't a wimp. He can one shot the most powerful being in the universe Freeza atleast he use to be that is. The Saiyans are just so overwhelmingly strong that's all.


He was stunned that Vegeta defeated him easily. He didn't realize how strong the saiyans were, he could have done it too. But, by the information he had, Pui Pui would be well above most non-godly fighters. He was definitely stronger than Frieza.

SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta are stronger than Kid Gohan and the Supreme Kai.

Piccolo is weaker (and by Piccolo's estimation, much weaker and Piccolo is good at estimating) than Kaioshin, it's stated, never contradicted and it says so in one of the guidebooks.

Why would the Grand Kai be above him while the Supreme Kai (Kaioshin) isn't? Supreme Kai is much higher on the celestial hierarchy than the Grand Kai is. Besides, the Grand Kai doesn't even exist. He's a filler character.

It makes sense for him to be afraid of Dabura, he doesn't have a clear idea of his strength, all he knows it that he's the strongest in the Demon Realm and that he's basically Satan. As for Dabura's power, it's doubtful that we see the full extent of it. he was just screwing around with Gohan, in the manga their battle was very short.

Buu Saga

Majin Vegeta~>Enraged SSJ2 Gohan~>SSJ2 Goku>SSJ2 Gohan>Kaioshin~>SSJ Goku/Vegeta~>Dabura>SSJ Gohan>Piccolo>SSJ Trunks/Goten>>Base Saiyans>>Base Goten/Trunks

Out of the people who fought Buu first, they all did terribly - I wouldn't say that there are any conclusions we can draw from this except that their powers are in the same realm

Gohan was one-shotted after kicking Buu (which did nothing)
Dabura was eye poked and then turned into a cookie
Kaioshin used a few attacks that had almost no effect and then was crushed
Edited by IllogicalGlory, Dec 23 2012, 12:37 AM.
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IllogicalGlory
Dec 23 2012, 12:30 AM
Animelover5487
Dec 22 2012, 08:53 PM

He thought that defeating Pui Pui was such a big deal and was stunned by how easily Vegeta defeated him implying that he cant do the same. Piccolo > Kaioshin makes the most sense power gap wise since Dabura is implied to be above Base Saiyans and was only slightly better than a SSJ Gohan who slacked off for 7 years. Also not to mention that SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta were implied to be rivals with Kid SSJ2 Gohan.


Piccolo was probadly only scared because he thought Kaioshin was the Grand Kai and that the Grand Kai would be dimensions above him.


He isn't a wimp. He can one shot the most powerful being in the universe Freeza atleast he use to be that is. The Saiyans are just so overwhelmingly strong that's all.


He was stunned that Vegeta defeated him easily. He didn't realize how strong the saiyans were, he could have done it too. But, by the information he had, Pui Pui would be well above most non-godly fighters. He was definitely stronger than Frieza.

SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta are stronger than Kid Gohan and the Supreme Kai.

Piccolo is weaker (and by Piccolo's estimation, much weaker and Piccolo is good at estimating) than Kaioshin, it's stated, never contradicted and it says so in one of the guidebooks.

Why would the Grand Kai be above him while the Supreme Kai (Kaioshin) isn't? Supreme Kai is much higher on the celestial hierarchy than the Grand Kai is. Besides, the Grand Kai doesn't even exist. He's a filler character.

It makes sense for him to be afraid of Dabura, he doesn't have a clear idea of his strength, all he knows it that he's the strongest in the Demon Realm and that he's basically Satan. As for Dabura's power, it's doubtful that we see the full extent of it. he was just screwing around with Gohan, in the manga their battle was very short.

Buu Saga

Majin Vegeta~>Enraged SSJ2 Gohan~>SSJ2 Goku>SSJ2 Gohan>Kaioshin~>SSJ Goku/Vegeta~>Dabura>SSJ Gohan>Piccolo>SSJ Trunks/Goten>>Base Saiyans>>Base Goten/Trunks

Out of the people who fought Buu first, they all did terribly - I wouldn't say that there are any conclusions we can draw from this except that their powers are in the same realm

Gohan was one-shotted after kicking Buu (which did nothing)
Dabura was eye poked and then turned into a cookie
Kaioshin used a few attacks that had almost no effect and then was crushed
Most of this has been debunked already, especially Kaioshin being stronger than Pui-Pui. :/

Oh god, and Piccolo above the boys. D: ***** storm a comin'
Edited by Pyrus, Dec 23 2012, 01:25 AM.
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Alex D. Boss
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Dabura > Kaioshin !
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Professor Gohan
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Is Piccolo above the boys bad or something? That kinda just hit me today and I started seeing it; just where I placed Piccolo(post) anyway.
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It's just not supported is all. If there were statements or feats (Boo doesn't count), it'd be fine. But it's nothing more than disbelief that kids could be stronger than the awesome Piccolo and the Boo incident from what I've seen across man forums.
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Animelover5487
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IllogicalGlory
Dec 23 2012, 12:30 AM
Animelover5487
Dec 22 2012, 08:53 PM

He thought that defeating Pui Pui was such a big deal and was stunned by how easily Vegeta defeated him implying that he cant do the same. Piccolo > Kaioshin makes the most sense power gap wise since Dabura is implied to be above Base Saiyans and was only slightly better than a SSJ Gohan who slacked off for 7 years. Also not to mention that SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta were implied to be rivals with Kid SSJ2 Gohan.


Piccolo was probadly only scared because he thought Kaioshin was the Grand Kai and that the Grand Kai would be dimensions above him.


He isn't a wimp. He can one shot the most powerful being in the universe Freeza atleast he use to be that is. The Saiyans are just so overwhelmingly strong that's all.


He was stunned that Vegeta defeated him easily. He didn't realize how strong the saiyans were, he could have done it too. But, by the information he had, Pui Pui would be well above most non-godly fighters. He was definitely stronger than Frieza.

SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta are stronger than Kid Gohan and the Supreme Kai.

Piccolo is weaker (and by Piccolo's estimation, much weaker and Piccolo is good at estimating) than Kaioshin, it's stated, never contradicted and it says so in one of the guidebooks.

Why would the Grand Kai be above him while the Supreme Kai (Kaioshin) isn't? Supreme Kai is much higher on the celestial hierarchy than the Grand Kai is. Besides, the Grand Kai doesn't even exist. He's a filler character.

It makes sense for him to be afraid of Dabura, he doesn't have a clear idea of his strength, all he knows it that he's the strongest in the Demon Realm and that he's basically Satan. As for Dabura's power, it's doubtful that we see the full extent of it. he was just screwing around with Gohan, in the manga their battle was very short.

Buu Saga

Majin Vegeta~>Enraged SSJ2 Gohan~>SSJ2 Goku>SSJ2 Gohan>Kaioshin~>SSJ Goku/Vegeta~>Dabura>SSJ Gohan>Piccolo>SSJ Trunks/Goten>>Base Saiyans>>Base Goten/Trunks

Out of the people who fought Buu first, they all did terribly - I wouldn't say that there are any conclusions we can draw from this except that their powers are in the same realm

Gohan was one-shotted after kicking Buu (which did nothing)
Dabura was eye poked and then turned into a cookie
Kaioshin used a few attacks that had almost no effect and then was crushed



Are you listening to yourself if someone is stunned by another fighter stomping the other one than he CANT do the same. He wanted the saiyans to beat Babidi's henchmen so he already knew they were as strong if not stronger than him. If he thought they weren't than it would be pointless for them to come with him. So since they was stronger than he thought that confirmes what im saying is true which Base Saiyans > Kaioshin.



I never said SSJ2 Goku/Majin Vegeta weren't but they weren't that much stronger considering Piccolo thought that Vegeta and Kid Gohan's power levels were comparable.


Your not understanding anything im trying to say which is Piccolo nor none of the Z fighters knew how strong the Kai was since Piccolo has some of Kami in him he knew that the Kai was a Kai but confused him with the Grand Kai Piccolo dosen't know how strong any of the Kais so he made a estimation. But the Grand Kai if there is one probadly isn't just like the Surpreme Kai wasn't.


Your power chain is messed up. The kids were on par with SSJ Gohan they were stronger than Piccolo.
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I don't have access to a computer so forgive me for typos and not multi quoting. *****s hard on an iPod.

First thing is what the heck at Kaioshin being stronger than Dabura? He was mortified by Dabura's presence and stated multiple times that he couldn't beat Dabura. He even told Gohan before they went to Boo's egg that the Saiyan had to handle Dabura while he dealt with Babidi, because it'd have been retarded the other way.

Also, Base Vegeta > Expected Super Saiyans > Kaioshin is laid out clearly enough with his statements, his reactions, and the fact that Vegeta later points out how Kaioshin didn't live up to the hype.

Piccolo being above Kaioshin is understandable, but not a fact IMO. There's no way Piccolo could've been sensing Kaioshin's actual power when nobody else could (stated). It was, as later pointed out by Vegeta, all about Kaioshin's reputation, not his actual power, which was strong but nothing the gang couldn't deal with.

Sorry for the brevity and not providing any quotes or links to some other good posts.
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IllogicalGlory
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Kamikaze Pyro
Dec 23 2012, 01:38 AM
It's just not supported is all. If there were statements or feats (Boo doesn't count), it'd be fine. But it's nothing more than disbelief that kids could be stronger than the awesome Piccolo and the Boo incident from what I've seen across man forums.

Why doesn't the Buu incident count? Because it contradicts what you're saying?
What exactly did the boys do that would put them above Piccolo?
Goten kicked Majin Buu. He got a sneak attack on him and it was a good kick, that's all.
What else did they do? Get slammed into the ground by 18 in base? Fight her for all of 30 seconds? Almost kill her in super saiyan (she was able to dodge their attack, if they were way stronger, she would not even be able to see it, like with Freeza's attacks right)?
All of these things Piccolo could have done and could have done much better. Piccolo held his own against the Cell Juniors just as well as Vegeta and Trunks did.

What feats do the kids have that supports them being to beat (for them to stronger than Piccolo, they'd have to) the Cell juniors?

And just because none of this is concrete, why should we assume that Goten and Trunks are stronger. They have almost no feats to their name either. Sparring with SSJ Gohan?
Who knows what was going on there? They were prepping for a martial arts tournament, not a fight to save the world, why can't he be holding back, besides it was one panel, there's no context. Furthermore, Trunks couldn't even handle 100g in his base, I'm not going to say he's below 90,000, but seriously, how can that be?
There's no reason for Piccolo to be below the boys.

Maybe I don't know much about the Kaioshin, but Daizenshuu 7 says that his powers are vastly superior to Piccolo's.
I'm obviously wrong about him being stronger than the saiyans, but Pui Pui, Yakon (I put Piccolo above them)? Honestly I cannot see him losing to those two at all. Do you think that if Pui Pui used a kiai that Buu would even notice it? You can't pick and choose what you want to look at. Kaioshin easily stood up to Buu's attacks far better than Yakon or Pui Pui would have. His power was far superior to Dabura's and even if he is screwing around, he'd still destroy the other 2 of Babidi's team.

Besides Kaioshin can restrain SSJ2 Gohan's movements and it is known that enough power can overcome magic.
Edited by IllogicalGlory, Dec 23 2012, 02:27 AM.
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Alex D. Boss
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Chapter: 468 (DBZ 274), P12.7
Piccolo: “These two are our only hope…! Th-though it’s a faint hope…”
Context: this is before Fusion is even mentioned

piccolo rates the kids higher than himself...

Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P2.1-6
Context: after Goten and Trunks turn into Super Saiyans
Goku: “Alright! Now then, gather your ki up to your utmost limits. All the way full!”
Trunks: “Hehe…Alrii—iight. Let’s freak ‘em out, Goten.”
Goten: “Yeah…hihihi…”
*they power up*
Piccolo: “Gu…!”
Goku: “Alright, so that’s full?”
Goten: “Huh!?”
Trunks: “Ye-yeah…”

... before he knows their full power.

SSJ Goten Pre > Piccolo > Base Goten post

And

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P13.3
Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Kaioshin: “Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…” He never expected BS>PP , since BS>Kaio*****

Pui Pui > Kaioshin.

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P7.2-5
Context: after Yakon slashes Goku
Gohan: “Oh! He’s huge, but quick!”
Kaioshin: “Let’s fight together!”
Gohan: “Nah, I think father will be perfectly fine on his own.”
Kaioshin: “…”

Yakon > Kaioshin

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5
Context: Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being so tough
Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”

Dabura > Kaioshin.

He also states that he needs the help of the Base Saiyans to beat Babidi and the rest and states that he probably can't beat Goku. He is then worried that Vegeta can't beat Pui Pui on his own.
Edited by Alex D. Boss, Dec 23 2012, 02:48 AM.
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IllogicalGlory
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Furious

Alright fair enough, I'm wrong.

I'm not going to say it makes sense, (Goten and Trunks were kids who hadn't trained and just suddenly became super saiyans and stronger than Piccolo?) but I guess that's how it is.

Anyway how can Kaioshin be much stronger than Piccolo (Daiz 7) and yet be weaker than Pui Pui?

Also can you get a few quotes from him about how strong the saiyans are?
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Professor Gohan
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I was talking about: Piccolo>Base kids by the way. Is piccolo stronger than the kids' base pre and post?
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Animelover5487
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IllogicalGlory
Dec 23 2012, 02:33 AM
Alright fair enough, I'm wrong.

I'm not going to say it makes sense, (Goten and Trunks were kids who hadn't trained and just suddenly became super saiyans and stronger than Piccolo?) but I guess that's how it is.

Anyway how can Kaioshin be much stronger than Piccolo (Daiz 7) and yet be weaker than Pui Pui?

Also can you get a few quotes from him about how strong the saiyans are?



Here's one.



Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”


As you can see here Babidi was the most interested Base Saiyans ki than anyone else's.



Professor Gohan
Dec 23 2012, 02:35 AM
I was talking about: Piccolo>Base kids by the way. Is piccolo stronger than the kids' base pre and post?



Of course they was equal to 18 I know they had there Mighty Mask suit on but I dont think it would restrict them by that much.
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Professor Gohan
Dec 23 2012, 02:35 AM
I was talking about: Piccolo>Base kids by the way. Is piccolo stronger than the kids' base pre and post?
Unless you think C18 got a huge power boost or the suit nerfed the boys, Piccolo would be stronger than the boys in their normal forms IMO.
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Professor Gohan
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Kamikaze Pyro
Dec 23 2012, 03:10 AM
Professor Gohan
Dec 23 2012, 02:35 AM
I was talking about: Piccolo>Base kids by the way. Is piccolo stronger than the kids' base pre and post?
Unless you think C18 got a huge power boost or the suit nerfed the boys, Piccolo would be stronger than the boys in their normal forms IMO.
Which case do you side with more, 18 getting a boost and possibly the reason why Krillin is stronger than Tien or the suit nerfing the boys? I ask because: I didn't think she had the ability to get stronger. I can honestly see the suit nerfing the boys, but if 18 has the ability to get stronger, then hell yeah I'd go with that because that can also explain Krillin being stronger than Tien at the very end.

18 and Krillin getting it on upstairs and on the sand.
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