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SSjin 2 Gotenks vs. Super Janemba
Topic Started: Oct 13 2012, 11:49 AM (1,751 Views)
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Fusion Formula complicates things.
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Ultimate Perfection
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IMO Goku & Gotenks in the TOEI Buu Saga movies are the same. So I have Goku M10=Goku M11=Goku M12=Goku M13 & Gotenks M12=Gotenks M13. So judging from the fight with Hirudegarn, TOEI has a heirarchy of:

Hirudegarn (Transformed)~SSj3 Goku>>>>SSj3 Gotenks>Hirudegarn (Base)>>>Ultimate Gohan.

This is due to Ultimate Gohan being unable to do anything to base Hirudegarn while SSj3 Gotenks could have finished it off had it not transformed. Transformed Hirudegarn then one shotted SSj3 Gotenks (Gotenks took so much damage he de-fused), while in comparison SSj3 Goku was capable of taking blows from Hirudegarn. In M12 we clearly see Super Janemba>>>>SSj3 Goku. So IMO:

Super Janemba>>>>Hirudegarn (Transformed)~SSj3 Goku (TOEI)>>>>SSj3 Gotenks (TOEI)>Hirudegarn (Base)>>>Ultimate Gohan.

So i don't think Gotenks would have any chance at SSj3, nevermind in a lesser form.

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Slayerslice
Oct 13 2012, 08:32 PM
Kamikaze Pyro
Oct 13 2012, 06:09 PM
I don't abide by the theory that movie villains have to equal the strength of whichever canon villain they resemble from that time period, so I don't believe Super Janemba = Super Boo. Toei screwed themselves in the ***** when they made Goku the speaker of the infamous "strongest Ki ever felt" line. If he had phrased it differently, like, "I haven't felt a Ki like this since Majin Boo," then things would be different since that can be interpreted in a few different ways. Too many differents in there.

Anyway, Gotenks would slaughter Janemba IMO. I don't have the squirts' Fusion far from Gogeta. It'd be a similar gap to Goku and Fat Boo, I think, although a teensy bit smaller probably. Janemba would only be able to win if he somehow waited out the Fusion.
I am trying to figure out how fusion works and it's multiplier, I think there is a gargantuan difference between SSJ2 Vegeta and SSJ Goten, because they are the weaker ones from the fusion.

Maybe SSJ2 + SSJ2 x multiplier = base?
You're never going to figure out the exact multiplier. AT didn't have one in mind. He made Fusion as powerful as he wanted. It's a headache trying to stick to Fusion multipliers.
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Ryuuzaki
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SSJ Gogeta >>> FP Janemba >> Base Gogeta.
Gotenks is weaker than Gogeta but enough to stomp Janmeba like SSJ Gogeta.
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Sjk8
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Victorious Unstoppable
Oct 13 2012, 09:59 PM
Fusion Formula complicates things.
It's suggested that fusion formula is something like (x+x)*y, and I personally think that the "y" term can be nothing but a number between 10 and 50, no less, no more.
Gogeta being said to be a few of times stronger than Goku/Vegeta with the same grade of Ssj, and fusion said to work in a way not far from an addition of power levels make me think this way.
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Fusion was never said to work in an addition type of way.

And if you honestly are going to limit yourself to a multiplier between 10 and 50, you're going to have a ***** of a time trying to make your Boo Saga levels work.
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Sjk8
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The only real "problem" is that, with numbers, there is no way for base Gotenks post to be > Ssj Gotenks pre, because the boys would end up stronger than Goku and Vegeta, and that's not true.
But all the rest works just fine: I have Gogeta and Gotenks 50 times stronger than Goku/Vegeta and Goten/Trunks, with the same Ssj transformation.
I might add that, from the introduction of Ssj FP, I don't believe Ssj is X 50 anymore, things just don't work at all with that multiplier in Cell Games and Buu sagas.
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Sjk8
Oct 14 2012, 08:28 PM
The only real "problem" is that, with numbers, there is no way for base Gotenks post to be > Ssj Gotenks pre, because the boys would end up stronger than Goku and Vegeta, and that's not true.
But all the rest works just fine: I have Gogeta and Gotenks 50 times stronger than Goku/Vegeta and Goten/Trunks, with the same Ssj transformation.
I might add that, from the introduction of Ssj FP, I don't believe Ssj is X 50 anymore, things just don't work at all with that multiplier in Cell Games and Buu sagas.
You don't need to have the boys increasing linearly with Gotenks, and nothing explicitly says they couldn't have surpassed their fathers. People just don't like that option, so they toss it out. You make your numbers around the story, not vice versa, so if Base Gotenks (post) > SSjin Gotenks (pre) is stated, you go with that.
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This is why I just don't try to bother with fusion multipliers. They don't work. I always just put Gotenks and Vegetto wherever they need to be, and I scale a hypothetical Gogeta off of Gotenks post-RoSaT.
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Kyouka Suigetsu
Oct 14 2012, 08:33 PM
This is why I just don't try to bother with fusion multipliers. They don't work. I always just put Gotenks and Vegetto wherever they need to be, and I scale a hypothetical Gogeta off of Gotenks post-RoSaT.
That's exactly why I gave up on a Fusion formula as well. It's rather pointless IMHO.
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Sjk8
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Kamikaze Pyro
Oct 14 2012, 08:32 PM
Sjk8
Oct 14 2012, 08:28 PM
The only real "problem" is that, with numbers, there is no way for base Gotenks post to be > Ssj Gotenks pre, because the boys would end up stronger than Goku and Vegeta, and that's not true.
But all the rest works just fine: I have Gogeta and Gotenks 50 times stronger than Goku/Vegeta and Goten/Trunks, with the same Ssj transformation.
I might add that, from the introduction of Ssj FP, I don't believe Ssj is X 50 anymore, things just don't work at all with that multiplier in Cell Games and Buu sagas.
You don't need to have the boys increasing linearly with Gotenks, and nothing explicitly says they couldn't have surpassed their fathers. People just don't like that option, so they toss it out. You make your numbers around the story, not vice versa, so if Base Gotenks (post) > SSjin Gotenks (pre) is stated, you go with that.
If Goten and Trunks surpassed Goku and Vegeta I think someone would have told us.
For the rest, I kinda agree with you, but if you don't think the boys increase linearly with Gotenks, then you are implicitly saying the metamoran boost can change, so Gogeta could be very well >>> Gotenks and very close to Vegetto.
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Sjk8
Oct 14 2012, 08:39 PM
Kamikaze Pyro
Oct 14 2012, 08:32 PM
Sjk8
Oct 14 2012, 08:28 PM
The only real "problem" is that, with numbers, there is no way for base Gotenks post to be > Ssj Gotenks pre, because the boys would end up stronger than Goku and Vegeta, and that's not true.
But all the rest works just fine: I have Gogeta and Gotenks 50 times stronger than Goku/Vegeta and Goten/Trunks, with the same Ssj transformation.
I might add that, from the introduction of Ssj FP, I don't believe Ssj is X 50 anymore, things just don't work at all with that multiplier in Cell Games and Buu sagas.
You don't need to have the boys increasing linearly with Gotenks, and nothing explicitly says they couldn't have surpassed their fathers. People just don't like that option, so they toss it out. You make your numbers around the story, not vice versa, so if Base Gotenks (post) > SSjin Gotenks (pre) is stated, you go with that.
If Goten and Trunks surpassed Goku and Vegeta I think someone would have told us.
For the rest, I kinda agree with you, but if you don't think the boys increase linearly with Gotenks, then you are implicitly saying the metamoran boost can change, so Gogeta could be very well >>> Gotenks and very close to Vegetto.
How am I saying that?
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Sjk8
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Because Gotenks should increase in the same way the boys increase their power: if Gotenks increases his power more than them, it means the boost of the fusion has changed.
Totally casual numerical example:

Goten pre: 10
Gotenks: (10+10)*20=400

Goten post: 15
Gotenks post: (15+15)*20=600

Goten's increasing: 15/10=1.5
Gotenks increasing: 600/400=1.5

In this case, Gotenks increases linearly with Goten; if the increasing isn't linear, it's only because the boost of the fusion changes.
In that case, people can thus say that Goku and Vegeta are >> Goten and Trunks, and, even more, are rivals, so Gogeta would receive an even bigger boost (and maybe an extra rival boost).
I hope I explained myself well.
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I made up an explanation for this some time ago, but it's more likely because the kids haven't mastered fusion before the RoSaT, being a couple of inexperienced brats.

For one thing, Gotenks before the RoSaT is implied to only be able to go SSJ if Goten and Trunks fused as SSJs. You could argue that the two of them just never bothered to show the ability beforehand, but then again they did fight Fat Boo in just base....so, because the fusion in unmastered, the kids also cannot access the full potential of their fusion.

After the RoSaT, the kids had mastered the fusion, and not only can they access all of their forms, they can get the most out of the fusion, as well, hence why the kids' increases weren't worth noting, but Gotenks' were.

On the other hand, Goku and Vegeta, being the more skilled and more intelligent fighters, would be able to get it completely right, right off the bat.

Just a thought; this way, you can still sorta-technically keep fusion increases linear if you really, really want to...
Edited by Kyouks, Oct 14 2012, 09:08 PM.
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Sjk8
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That would be a good point of view, but it would still make the fusion boost directly linked with the peculiarities of who is merging, imho.
But again, mine is only a point of view which try tu suit with metamoran fusion, whose boost nowhere is said can change from person to person. ;)
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