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SSjin 3 Gogeta vs. Gotenks-Boo
Topic Started: Oct 4 2012, 01:49 PM (8,058 Views)
+ miguelnuva
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In the filler scene Gohan is beating Goten, Goten goes MSSJ, Gohan blocks for a little bit starts to lose and then he goes MSSJ.

Base Gohan is under MSSJ Goten.

And while Gohan was serious with his training with Goten he wasn't go all out like Piccolo or Goku after Gohan made him.
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Gogeta power placement
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miguelnuva
Oct 12 2012, 08:13 PM
In the filler scene Gohan is beating Goten, Goten goes MSSJ, Gohan blocks for a little bit starts to lose and then he goes MSSJ.

Base Gohan is under MSSJ Goten.

And while Gohan was serious with his training with Goten he wasn't go all out like Piccolo or Goku after Gohan made him.
Yeah, he wasn't going to kill Goten, but he wasn't going to hold back, as in suppress his power, either.
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Slayerslice
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Kamikaze Pyro
Oct 12 2012, 07:21 PM
Slayerslice
Oct 12 2012, 01:55 PM
That says more about Goku, he held his own longer then Gohan did. Goku was actually showing skill, and still fought even with Cell for more then half the fight.

Goku was on the losing side of the fight up until the end, after they both used extremely exhausting special attacks (Goku's chi barrage and Cell's explosive wave). Before that, Goku was giving it his all while Cell still had room for composure, and not just because he was holding back a ton of power; he was advantaged by a noticeable amount, as Vegeta stated.
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Dabura was beating Gohan and Goku and Vegeta, definately weren't happy with Gohan's performance.

Like Copy said, that says more about Gohan's skill than his power. Vegeta already remarked about Gohan's power at the tournament, and although he commented on it again during the Dabura fight, he was more heated about Gohan slacking off and becoming a pile of rust rather than his power.

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”

And Gohan wasn't really losing too much. He was doing just fine. Dabura had to pull out all the stops, even resorting to surprise attacks and magic, and Gohan still didn't go down.
Quote:
 
Well Goku did go easy on Gohan in the RoSaT, why did Gohan have to ask Goku not go easy on him? If Goten ain't bleeding, Gohan ain't trying.

You'd have an argument if that wasn't filler. :p Sorry, but no such thing is uttered from Gohan in the manga. And really, bleeding is a sign of trying? Since when?
Quote:
 
Ok? They are the 3th strongest, after Gohan and Piccolo.
But that doesn't matter because they didn't fought Buu alone.

They're implied to be stronger than Piccolo. He's shocked at their full power, something he doesn't display often unless it's a power that surpasses his own.
Quote:
 
Exactly, now I used a blatant filler to see if you are going to pull the manga card again.

Yeah, I use the original source material, not the contradictory filler-filled adaptation of the source material. In a canon debate, the source material is canon, and nothing else (well, the guidebooks are debatable). If you want to debate using all the filler your big brain can handle, then make another thread about a non-canon fight.
Quote:
 
Gohan didn't die until Kid Buu blew up the Earth, so the kids were 3rd strongest alive warriors.

They'd be the third and fourth, since Goku and Gohan were alive, and I think myself and Copy_Ninja have established why the boys are stronger than Piccolo.
Quote:
 
Dabura/Cell, I don't see the comparison in power to be honest.

Well, you don't have to. Goku did. :D
Quote:
 
Cell was beating Kid Gohan up aswell, moreso then Cell did to Goku, Goku > Gohan, until SSJ2.
That was Goku's plan all along, he saw Gohan transform in the RoSaT to SSJ2, and that was his plan. SSJ Goku > SSJ Gohan, but not SSJ2. Obviously.

I heartily disagree, my good man, and here's why:

1. Gohan transforming in the RoSaT is, again, filler. The only thing we get in the manga is this:

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P6.5, P7.1-6
Context: after Goku asks Gohan to be the next one to fight Cell
Piccolo: “Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”
Goku: “Piccolo, Gohan has more unbelievable power than we think. Think about it. He’s fought the same as everyone since he was a little squirt…When I was about his age, I wasn’t anything special.”
Kuririn: “B-but even if he’s become a Super Saiyan…Th-this is so quick…”
Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released.”

2. Goku said Gohan was the only one who could win against Cell. When Gohan powered up, Cell said Goku wasn't bluffing but that Gohan wouldn't be able to beat him. The key part there is that Cell only negated the part where Goku said Gohan could beat him, leaving out the part where Goku implied Gohan was stronger.

Chapter: 403 (DBZ 209), P1.1-3
Context: Goku talking to Cell about Cell's next opponent (ie Gohan)
Goku: “The Cell Games will probably end with this next match. Since if he loses, there won’t be anyone else who could win against you…[ ] But from fighting you just now, I think this guy really can beat you after all."

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!”
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”

3. Gohan thought Goku's and Cell's fight looked like they were holding back, implying he was a lot stronger than them.

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P6.5, P7.1-6
Context: after Goku asks Gohan to be the next one to fight Cell
Piccolo: “Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”
Goku: “Piccolo, Gohan has more unbelievable power than we think. Think about it. He’s fought the same as everyone since he was a little squirt…When I was about his age, I wasn’t anything special.”
Kuririn: “B-but even if he’s become a Super Saiyan…Th-this is so quick…”
Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released. Why don’t we try asking him? How about it, Gohan? Did you think that dad and Cell’s fight just now was too incredible and you couldn’t keep up?”
Gohan: “N-no, I didn’t think so…But neither of you were fighting all-out, right…!?”
Goku: “I don’t know about Cell, but I was going all-out. So in other words, to you it felt like I was holding back?”

4. Goku was at a noticeable disadvantage against Cell. You can argue this all you want, but it was seen and stated by Vegeta.

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P10.1
Vegeta: “It drives me crazy, but I’ll admit it…Despite doing all that special training, I didn’t surpass Kakarot…Th-that bastard’s a genius…But Cell is 1 or 2 steps above even him…”

On the other hand, Gohan was at an advantage against Cell. He easily dodged Cell's attacks, prompting Cell to use his full speed.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

Even after Cell ups his speed, he can't inflict any damage on Gohan apart from a superficial bleeding forehead, which you'll see why is not a sign of actual damage in a moment. When Cell blasts Gohan into the mountain, everyone thinks he's dead except Goku, who states that Gohan's chi hadn't lowered even one bit.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P12.6-7
Context: after Cell beats up on Gohan
Goku: “Don’t panic, Piccolo. Gohan’s ki hasn’t fallen one bit, has it?”
Kuririn: “Ah…It-it’s true…!”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P14.2
Context: after Gohan isn’t fazed much by Cell’s attack
Cell: “..Well, this is a surprise…You’re exceptionally tough, aren’t you?…”

5. Later on, Piccolo starts freaking out, making Goku feel guilty about sending his only son into a battle like this without even telling him the plan, BUT he says that Gohan is #1 out of all of them.

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P12.1
Piccolo: “Don’t forget…! Even if his power is #1, he’s still a kid…!”

Do you understand now why Gohan, even as a Super Saiyan, was a good lot ahead of Goku? Dabura was compared to this Cell, and Gohan wasn't doing too bad against him.

MSSjin Kid Gohan > Perfect Cell (@Gohan, max speed) > Perfect Cell (@Goku, "1 or 2 steps ahead") = Dabura >/> MSSjin Teen Gohan > MSSjin Goku

Going by feats and statements, you should be able to see why the above chain makes sense.^
Quote:
 
About RoSaT, I already said that. Gohan had to beg Goku not to go easy on him, Goten wasn't bleeding, Gohan was then going easy on his little brother, all there is to it.

Compare Piccolo and Gohan, where Gohan was busted up, had a lump on his head for days.

That was training for a life-or-death battle. Piccolo didn't care for Gohan at that point either. Sparring is a different form of training, where you can use your full ability and not try to kill your opponent.

"Sparring is a form of training common to many combat sports. Although the precise form varies, it is essentially relatively 'free-form' fighting, with enough rules, customs, or agreements to make injuries unlikely."

There is also Gohan's statement about the kids surpassing him if he continues to not train. If the Super Saiyan kids were really weaker than him in Base, then he would have no reason to worry about such a thing occurring, yet he's very concerned about it. It's mentioned in the context of the tournament training, too, by the way.
Quote:
 
Well then tell Kamikaze not to use manga the be-end of all of the DBZ series, there's more then that.

I use manga in canon debates and filler in non-canon debates where permeable. If you can't debate canon without bringing non-canon into it, then you don't have to debate this. You can, like I said, make another topic geared toward filler, or take your leave. Nobody is forcing you to debate this. :unsure:

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I already said my points, I do not have to repeat myself over and over again.
You deliberately keep out my parts because it's not in manga and then disregard it.


If SSJ Goten was so almighty he would of hit Gohan in his base, period.
Seriously kids are overrated so much. Goku in his base would beat Goten, let alone SSJ Gogeta fusion vs. Gotenks fusion lol. And Buu Saga Goku is miles ahead of Teen Gohan
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Sjk8
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Yeah, Ssj Gogeta would obliterate with utter ease Ssj Gotenks pre Rosat, but then Gotenks trained and it is implied he became much stronger, so the gap between him and Gogeta lowered, as became smaller the gap between base adults and base kids.
I don't really think that Ssj Gogeta is more than 8 X Ssj Gotenks post Rosat, and that's the gap he would need in order to defeat Ssj3 Gotenks.
The only alternative way is that metamoran boost can change, thus Gogeta would receive an higher boost... But, again, where is the actual proof?
A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has even a chance to get its pants on
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15 days can't possibly improve them by that much considering the boost Gohan got at the same age and he trained for 3 YEARS!

How strong is Super Janemba really, because if we can find his actual number then we can compare Gogeta to Gotenks, or do you want to compare SSJ4 Gogeta first, because that's the only occassions where he appeared in.
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Slayerslice
Oct 12 2012, 09:03 PM
Kamikaze Pyro
Oct 12 2012, 07:21 PM
Slayerslice
Oct 12 2012, 01:55 PM
That says more about Goku, he held his own longer then Gohan did. Goku was actually showing skill, and still fought even with Cell for more then half the fight.

Goku was on the losing side of the fight up until the end, after they both used extremely exhausting special attacks (Goku's chi barrage and Cell's explosive wave). Before that, Goku was giving it his all while Cell still had room for composure, and not just because he was holding back a ton of power; he was advantaged by a noticeable amount, as Vegeta stated.
Quote:
 
Dabura was beating Gohan and Goku and Vegeta, definately weren't happy with Gohan's performance.

Like Copy said, that says more about Gohan's skill than his power. Vegeta already remarked about Gohan's power at the tournament, and although he commented on it again during the Dabura fight, he was more heated about Gohan slacking off and becoming a pile of rust rather than his power.

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”

And Gohan wasn't really losing too much. He was doing just fine. Dabura had to pull out all the stops, even resorting to surprise attacks and magic, and Gohan still didn't go down.
Quote:
 
Well Goku did go easy on Gohan in the RoSaT, why did Gohan have to ask Goku not go easy on him? If Goten ain't bleeding, Gohan ain't trying.

You'd have an argument if that wasn't filler. :p Sorry, but no such thing is uttered from Gohan in the manga. And really, bleeding is a sign of trying? Since when?
Quote:
 
Ok? They are the 3th strongest, after Gohan and Piccolo.
But that doesn't matter because they didn't fought Buu alone.

They're implied to be stronger than Piccolo. He's shocked at their full power, something he doesn't display often unless it's a power that surpasses his own.
Quote:
 
Exactly, now I used a blatant filler to see if you are going to pull the manga card again.

Yeah, I use the original source material, not the contradictory filler-filled adaptation of the source material. In a canon debate, the source material is canon, and nothing else (well, the guidebooks are debatable). If you want to debate using all the filler your big brain can handle, then make another thread about a non-canon fight.
Quote:
 
Gohan didn't die until Kid Buu blew up the Earth, so the kids were 3rd strongest alive warriors.

They'd be the third and fourth, since Goku and Gohan were alive, and I think myself and Copy_Ninja have established why the boys are stronger than Piccolo.
Quote:
 
Dabura/Cell, I don't see the comparison in power to be honest.

Well, you don't have to. Goku did. :D
Quote:
 
Cell was beating Kid Gohan up aswell, moreso then Cell did to Goku, Goku > Gohan, until SSJ2.
That was Goku's plan all along, he saw Gohan transform in the RoSaT to SSJ2, and that was his plan. SSJ Goku > SSJ Gohan, but not SSJ2. Obviously.

I heartily disagree, my good man, and here's why:

1. Gohan transforming in the RoSaT is, again, filler. The only thing we get in the manga is this:

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P6.5, P7.1-6
Context: after Goku asks Gohan to be the next one to fight Cell
Piccolo: “Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”
Goku: “Piccolo, Gohan has more unbelievable power than we think. Think about it. He’s fought the same as everyone since he was a little squirt…When I was about his age, I wasn’t anything special.”
Kuririn: “B-but even if he’s become a Super Saiyan…Th-this is so quick…”
Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released.”

2. Goku said Gohan was the only one who could win against Cell. When Gohan powered up, Cell said Goku wasn't bluffing but that Gohan wouldn't be able to beat him. The key part there is that Cell only negated the part where Goku said Gohan could beat him, leaving out the part where Goku implied Gohan was stronger.

Chapter: 403 (DBZ 209), P1.1-3
Context: Goku talking to Cell about Cell's next opponent (ie Gohan)
Goku: “The Cell Games will probably end with this next match. Since if he loses, there won’t be anyone else who could win against you…[ ] But from fighting you just now, I think this guy really can beat you after all."

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!”
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”

3. Gohan thought Goku's and Cell's fight looked like they were holding back, implying he was a lot stronger than them.

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P6.5, P7.1-6
Context: after Goku asks Gohan to be the next one to fight Cell
Piccolo: “Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”
Goku: “Piccolo, Gohan has more unbelievable power than we think. Think about it. He’s fought the same as everyone since he was a little squirt…When I was about his age, I wasn’t anything special.”
Kuririn: “B-but even if he’s become a Super Saiyan…Th-this is so quick…”
Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released. Why don’t we try asking him? How about it, Gohan? Did you think that dad and Cell’s fight just now was too incredible and you couldn’t keep up?”
Gohan: “N-no, I didn’t think so…But neither of you were fighting all-out, right…!?”
Goku: “I don’t know about Cell, but I was going all-out. So in other words, to you it felt like I was holding back?”

4. Goku was at a noticeable disadvantage against Cell. You can argue this all you want, but it was seen and stated by Vegeta.

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P10.1
Vegeta: “It drives me crazy, but I’ll admit it…Despite doing all that special training, I didn’t surpass Kakarot…Th-that bastard’s a genius…But Cell is 1 or 2 steps above even him…”

On the other hand, Gohan was at an advantage against Cell. He easily dodged Cell's attacks, prompting Cell to use his full speed.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

Even after Cell ups his speed, he can't inflict any damage on Gohan apart from a superficial bleeding forehead, which you'll see why is not a sign of actual damage in a moment. When Cell blasts Gohan into the mountain, everyone thinks he's dead except Goku, who states that Gohan's chi hadn't lowered even one bit.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P12.6-7
Context: after Cell beats up on Gohan
Goku: “Don’t panic, Piccolo. Gohan’s ki hasn’t fallen one bit, has it?”
Kuririn: “Ah…It-it’s true…!”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P14.2
Context: after Gohan isn’t fazed much by Cell’s attack
Cell: “..Well, this is a surprise…You’re exceptionally tough, aren’t you?…”

5. Later on, Piccolo starts freaking out, making Goku feel guilty about sending his only son into a battle like this without even telling him the plan, BUT he says that Gohan is #1 out of all of them.

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P12.1
Piccolo: “Don’t forget…! Even if his power is #1, he’s still a kid…!”

Do you understand now why Gohan, even as a Super Saiyan, was a good lot ahead of Goku? Dabura was compared to this Cell, and Gohan wasn't doing too bad against him.

MSSjin Kid Gohan > Perfect Cell (@Gohan, max speed) > Perfect Cell (@Goku, "1 or 2 steps ahead") = Dabura >/> MSSjin Teen Gohan > MSSjin Goku

Going by feats and statements, you should be able to see why the above chain makes sense.^
Quote:
 
About RoSaT, I already said that. Gohan had to beg Goku not to go easy on him, Goten wasn't bleeding, Gohan was then going easy on his little brother, all there is to it.

Compare Piccolo and Gohan, where Gohan was busted up, had a lump on his head for days.

That was training for a life-or-death battle. Piccolo didn't care for Gohan at that point either. Sparring is a different form of training, where you can use your full ability and not try to kill your opponent.

"Sparring is a form of training common to many combat sports. Although the precise form varies, it is essentially relatively 'free-form' fighting, with enough rules, customs, or agreements to make injuries unlikely."

There is also Gohan's statement about the kids surpassing him if he continues to not train. If the Super Saiyan kids were really weaker than him in Base, then he would have no reason to worry about such a thing occurring, yet he's very concerned about it. It's mentioned in the context of the tournament training, too, by the way.
Quote:
 
Well then tell Kamikaze not to use manga the be-end of all of the DBZ series, there's more then that.

I use manga in canon debates and filler in non-canon debates where permeable. If you can't debate canon without bringing non-canon into it, then you don't have to debate this. You can, like I said, make another topic geared toward filler, or take your leave. Nobody is forcing you to debate this. :unsure:

Spoiler: click to toggle
I already said my points, I do not have to repeat myself over and over again.
You deliberately keep out my parts because it's not in manga and then disregard it.


If SSJ Goten was so almighty he would of hit Gohan in his base, period.
Seriously kids are overrated so much. Goku in his base would beat Goten, let alone SSJ Gogeta fusion vs. Gotenks fusion lol. And Buu Saga Goku is miles ahead of Teen Gohan
Are you admitting defeat by admitting you can't make an argument in a CANON debate using solely CANON evidence? Otherwise don't talk as if you're holier than thou.
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Slayerslice
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What? The scenes are canon. Because they are filler according to you? Who are you lol.
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Slayerslice
Oct 12 2012, 09:26 PM
What? The scenes are canon. Because they are filler according to you? Who are you lol.
Seriously, dude, look up what canon and filler mean. If you think something not in the manga is canon, then I don't even know.
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Slayerslice
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Dude seriously, because it's not in the manga doesn't mean they aren't canon.
Kai obviously didn't cut out ''filler'' to consider it a filler lol.

How is Gohan training Goten for the tournament a filler? Really, in the manga they didn't even show Goten transform into a SSJ.
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GridZero
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If it's not in the manga, it's not canon.

Get it through your head already.
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Slayerslice
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chQ3MWIzJ_4

Manga isn't complete then.
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Slayerslice
Oct 12 2012, 09:32 PM
Dude seriously, because it's not in the manga doesn't mean they aren't canon.
Kai obviously didn't cut out ''filler'' to consider it a filler lol.

How is Gohan training Goten for the tournament a filler? Really, in the manga they didn't even show Goten transform into a SSJ.
If you don't know the definition of filler, then you shouldn't be using it in debates in the first place. I will keep reporting you if you're just going to blatantly ignore clear definitions because that's just ignorance. That's not a threat either, that's a guarantee. And go ahead and fire reports back at me, I've followed the rules of this debate and the forum (other than double posting which is hard not to do on probation as you know).

Just because Kai didn't cut it doesn't mean it's not filler. Kai cut most of the filler, not all. It's still the anime, which is non-canon itself. I thought you knew that, at least.

And so what if the manga didn't show Goten's first transformation? It didn't show his first crap either because it's totally irrelevant. We didn't need to see his first transformation, just like we didn't need to see Vegeta's or Gohan's or Trunks's. The anime does add some things that CAN fit into the manga, like the Ginyu Force on Kaio's planet filler, but that doesn't make it canon no matter how much you want it to.
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GridZero
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Slayerslice
Oct 12 2012, 09:40 PM
I can't even begin to describe how dumb this is.

You realize that's a DUB LINE?

Meaning it's not even in the original anime to begin with.

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I can honestly say...something really demeaning right here.

Anyways, filler is something added into the anime to make the anime longer, since anime episodes have more material than manga chapters. Filler was not in the original manga, meaning it was not written by the original author. If I was writing a paper for some book I read for school, would I use evidence that the author didn't write in my paper?

Canon evidence, on the other hand, is evidence that the author wrote. And the author wrote the manga. I honestly don't see what you mean by "pulling the manga card" - you are supposed to pull the "manga card" - that's the only kind of evidence that is valid in this debate.

The filler scenes you posted were scenes added in by TOEI to make the anime last longer. They were not written by Akira Toriyama, the author of the original Dragon Ball work. Why should they hold any water in this debate?
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Slayerslice
Oct 12 2012, 09:40 PM
That's your opinion and is not based in fact. Toriyama thought it was complete with 42 volumes.
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