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SSjin 3 Gogeta vs. Gotenks-Boo
Topic Started: Oct 4 2012, 01:49 PM (8,059 Views)
GridZero
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KP and I disagree on a lot of things, despite being friends.

The logic simply does not work.
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Slayerslice
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I am right, and you are not.
Deal with it.

I should report you people for making baseless numbers, and baseless assumptions that Goten is on the level of Cell Games Goku even though there is absolutely nothing that supports that.
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GridZero
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Slayerslice
Oct 12 2012, 01:01 PM
I am right, and you are not.
Deal with it.

I should report you people for making baseless numbers, and baseless assumptions that Goten is on the level of Cell Games Goku even though there is absolutely nothing that supports that.
Stop saying and start doing then.
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Slayerslice
Oct 12 2012, 01:01 PM
I am right, and you are not.
Deal with it.

I should report you people for making baseless numbers, and baseless assumptions that Goten is on the level of Cell Games Goku even though there is absolutely nothing that supports that.
Then actually support why you think the kids are that weak. In case you have forgotten, this is a hypothetical canon Gogeta, so we use canon evidence. You bringing in filler really does make you seem desperate, not to mention incompetent in your own argument if you can't stick to canon happenings. You started providing some examples of why you think the kids are weak, but you didn't elaborate on them or make any connections with them.
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Slayerslice
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Why do you think he is stronger then SSJ Cell Games Goku, you don't become champion by beating turds.
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Meowth
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=._.=

Moderators are here to make sure the rules are followed, not to be used to prove one person is right over the other and should not be used as a threat. We are not here to say X is right or Y is right, nor are we here to come down on someone because you don't agree with something they have said.

If it's against the rules, fine, but we won't warn members just because you don't think their argument is strong enough.

Either settle down or this topic is getting locked.
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Slayerslice
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He says Gohan was already SSJ against Goten, but then I provided proof then he is all like ''Oh it's filler'' haha, yeah when it's convienent it's filler but if it's going in your way, it's all legit.

It's not filler by the way. it's a legit scene of Goten training with Gohan and is clear he was weaker then Gohan, whether you like it or not, all there is to it.
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Slayerslice
Oct 12 2012, 01:27 PM
Why do you think he is stronger then SSJ Cell Games Goku, you don't become champion by beating turds.
What does that mean? :o_O:

I think he's at least around Cell Games Goku's level based on his sparring with Gohan and the way his power shocked Piccolo.
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Slayerslice
Oct 12 2012, 01:30 PM
He says Gohan was already SSJ against Goten, but then I provided proof then he is all like ''Oh it's filler'' haha, yeah when it's convienent it's filler but if it's going in your way, it's all legit.

It's not filler by the way. it's a legit scene of Goten training with Gohan and is clear he was weaker then Gohan, whether you like it or not, all there is to it.
No. If it's not in the manga, it's filler. Whether you like it or not, that's the definition and that's what it is.
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Slayerslice
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That Gohan is weaker then SSJ Games Goku, Gohan went easy on Goten aswell.
I say because Goku actually proved that he is a level that he is now, whereas Goten nor Trunks never showed anything to prove that they are.

Piccolo hurt Gotenks with a punch when he was joking around, ok?
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Quote:
 
That Gohan is weaker then SSJ Games Goku,

He went toe-to-toe with a Dabura who was stated to be comparable to the Cell Goku fought. If you didn't know, that Cell was stated to be "one or two steps" ahead of Goku.
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Gohan went easy on Goten aswell.

Doubtful. Gohan was never trained to go easy on people, and none of his mentors ever went easy on him, not even Goku.
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I say because Goku actually proved that he is a level that he is now, whereas Goten nor Trunks never showed anything to prove that they are.

Absence of feats doesn't negate the implications. And what do you mean? The sparring and Piccolo's reactions are enough, not to mention Piccolo says the boys are the planet's last hope after the adults are gone, before Fusion is even mentioned, instead of himself.
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Piccolo hurt Gotenks with a punch when he was joking around, ok?

Filler. I just re-read all of Gotenks's appearances, and Piccolo never once puts a hand on him.
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Slayerslice
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Quote:
 
That Gohan is weaker then SSJ Games Goku,

He went toe-to-toe with a Dabura who was stated to be comparable to the Cell Goku fought. If you didn't know, that Cell was stated to be "one or two steps" ahead of Goku.

That says more about Goku, he held his own longer then Gohan did. Goku was actually showing skill, and still fought even with Cell for more then half the fight.
Dabura was beating Gohan and Goku and Vegeta, definately weren't happy with Gohan's performance.
Quote:
 
Gohan went easy on Goten aswell.

Doubtful. Gohan was never trained to go easy on people, and none of his mentors ever went easy on him, not even Goku.
Well Goku did go easy on Gohan in the RoSaT, why did Gohan have to ask Goku not go easy on him? If Goten ain't bleeding, Gohan ain't trying.
Trunks never showed anything to prove that they are.[/quote]
Absence of feats doesn't negate the implications. And what do you mean? The sparring and Piccolo's reactions are enough, not to mention Piccolo says the boys are the planet's last hope after the adults are gone, before Fusion is even mentioned, instead of himself.
Ok? They are the 3th strongest, after Gohan and Piccolo.
But that doesn't matter because they didn't fought Buu alone.
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Piccolo hurt Gotenks with a punch when he was joking around, ok?

Filler. I just re-read all of Gotenks's appearances, and Piccolo never once puts a hand on him.
Exactly, now I used a blatant filler to see if you are going to pull the manga card again.

Messed up quoting some parts, but it is still readable.
Edited by Slayerslice, Oct 12 2012, 01:56 PM.
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Copy_Ninja
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Slayerslice
Oct 12 2012, 01:55 PM
That says more about Goku, he held his own longer then Gohan did. Goku was actually showing skill, and still fought even with Cell for more then half the fight.
Dabura was beating Gohan and Goku and Vegeta, definately weren't happy with Gohan's performance.
They weren't happy with his performance because he was sloppy and not as strong as he once was despite having had years to improve. Besides, it's not like he was getting completely trashed, he was just a little behind like Goku was with Cell. If anything, it supports the proposition of Gohan being at least equal to Goku in power (he's probably stronger because Goku had fighting skill to make him look more impressive).

Quote:
 
Well Goku did go easy on Gohan in the RoSaT


Right up until Gohan told him to go serious, that doesn't really support your argument. Ever since Piccolo's training, Gohan has always been a firm believer that his mentors shouldn't go easy on him, I don't see why Gohan wouldn't continue that with his own "student" (I use that term loosely).

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They are the 3th (sic) strongest after Gohan and Piccolo


Chapter: 468 (DBZ 274), P12.7
Piccolo: “These two are our only hope…! Th-though it’s a faint hope…”

"Only hope" Piccolo is still alive so he must be including himself in this. He doesn't even know about fusion right now. Granted, if you take this in isolation he could be pinning hopes on the rosat and them getting stronger, but when you consider it with this....

Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P2.1-6
Context: after Goten and Trunks turn into Super Saiyans
Goku: “Alright! Now then, gather your ki up to your utmost limits. All the way full!”
Trunks: “Hehe…Alrii—iight. Let’s freak ‘em out, Goten.”
Goten: “Yeah…hihihi…”
*they power up*
Piccolo: “Gu…!”
Goku: “Alright, so that’s full?”
Goten: “Huh!?”
Trunks: “Ye-yeah…”

It shows there's a gap in power already. Piccolo isn't the type to freak out about a power less than his own, even if he was surprised, he's a lot calmer than that. I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way really.

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Exactly, now I used a blatant filler to see if you are going to pull the manga card again.


I don't really get what your aversion to sticking to the manga is for. It's the canon source, the manga is simply an adaption of the work. Filler doesn't count because it is not a part of the same source material.
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Slayerslice
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Copy_Ninja
Oct 12 2012, 02:14 PM
Slayerslice
Oct 12 2012, 01:55 PM
That says more about Goku, he held his own longer then Gohan did. Goku was actually showing skill, and still fought even with Cell for more then half the fight.
Dabura was beating Gohan and Goku and Vegeta, definately weren't happy with Gohan's performance.
They weren't happy with his performance because he was sloppy and not as strong as he once was despite having had years to improve. Besides, it's not like he was getting completely trashed, he was just a little behind like Goku was with Cell. If anything, it supports the proposition of Gohan being at least equal to Goku in power (he's probably stronger because Goku had fighting skill to make him look more impressive).

Quote:
 
Well Goku did go easy on Gohan in the RoSaT


Right up until Gohan told him to go serious, that doesn't really support your argument. Ever since Piccolo's training, Gohan has always been a firm believer that his mentors shouldn't go easy on him, I don't see why Gohan wouldn't continue that with his own "student" (I use that term loosely).

Quote:
 
They are the 3th (sic) strongest after Gohan and Piccolo


Chapter: 468 (DBZ 274), P12.7
Piccolo: “These two are our only hope…! Th-though it’s a faint hope…”

"Only hope" Piccolo is still alive so he must be including himself in this. He doesn't even know about fusion right now. Granted, if you take this in isolation he could be pinning hopes on the rosat and them getting stronger, but when you consider it with this....

Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P2.1-6
Context: after Goten and Trunks turn into Super Saiyans
Goku: “Alright! Now then, gather your ki up to your utmost limits. All the way full!”
Trunks: “Hehe…Alrii—iight. Let’s freak ‘em out, Goten.”
Goten: “Yeah…hihihi…”
*they power up*
Piccolo: “Gu…!”
Goku: “Alright, so that’s full?”
Goten: “Huh!?”
Trunks: “Ye-yeah…”

It shows there's a gap in power already. Piccolo isn't the type to freak out about a power less than his own, even if he was surprised, he's a lot calmer than that. I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way really.

Quote:
 
Exactly, now I used a blatant filler to see if you are going to pull the manga card again.


I don't really get what your aversion to sticking to the manga is for. It's the canon source, the manga is simply an adaption of the work. Filler doesn't count because it is not a part of the same source material.
Gohan didn't die until Kid Buu blew up the Earth, so the kids were 3rd strongest alive warriors.
Dabura/Cell, I don't see the comparison in power to be honest.
Cell was beating Kid Gohan up aswell, moreso then Cell did to Goku, Goku > Gohan, until SSJ2.
That was Goku's plan all along, he saw Gohan transform in the RoSaT to SSJ2, and that was his plan. SSJ Goku > SSJ Gohan, but not SSJ2. Obviously.

About RoSaT, I already said that. Gohan had to beg Goku not to go easy on him, Goten wasn't bleeding, Gohan was then going easy on his little brother, all there is to it.

Compare Piccolo and Gohan, where Gohan was busted up, had a lump on his head for days.

Well then tell Kamikaze not to use manga the be-end of all of the DBZ series, there's more then that.
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Slayerslice
Oct 12 2012, 01:55 PM
That says more about Goku, he held his own longer then Gohan did. Goku was actually showing skill, and still fought even with Cell for more then half the fight.

Goku was on the losing side of the fight up until the end, after they both used extremely exhausting special attacks (Goku's chi barrage and Cell's explosive wave). Before that, Goku was giving it his all while Cell still had room for composure, and not just because he was holding back a ton of power; he was advantaged by a noticeable amount, as Vegeta stated.
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Dabura was beating Gohan and Goku and Vegeta, definately weren't happy with Gohan's performance.

Like Copy said, that says more about Gohan's skill than his power. Vegeta already remarked about Gohan's power at the tournament, and although he commented on it again during the Dabura fight, he was more heated about Gohan slacking off and becoming a pile of rust rather than his power.

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”

And Gohan wasn't really losing too much. He was doing just fine. Dabura had to pull out all the stops, even resorting to surprise attacks and magic, and Gohan still didn't go down.
Quote:
 
Well Goku did go easy on Gohan in the RoSaT, why did Gohan have to ask Goku not go easy on him? If Goten ain't bleeding, Gohan ain't trying.

You'd have an argument if that wasn't filler. :p Sorry, but no such thing is uttered from Gohan in the manga. And really, bleeding is a sign of trying? Since when?
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Ok? They are the 3th strongest, after Gohan and Piccolo.
But that doesn't matter because they didn't fought Buu alone.

They're implied to be stronger than Piccolo. He's shocked at their full power, something he doesn't display often unless it's a power that surpasses his own.
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Exactly, now I used a blatant filler to see if you are going to pull the manga card again.

Yeah, I use the original source material, not the contradictory filler-filled adaptation of the source material. In a canon debate, the source material is canon, and nothing else (well, the guidebooks are debatable). If you want to debate using all the filler your big brain can handle, then make another thread about a non-canon fight.
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Gohan didn't die until Kid Buu blew up the Earth, so the kids were 3rd strongest alive warriors.

They'd be the third and fourth, since Goku and Gohan were alive, and I think myself and Copy_Ninja have established why the boys are stronger than Piccolo.
Quote:
 
Dabura/Cell, I don't see the comparison in power to be honest.

Well, you don't have to. Goku did. :D
Quote:
 
Cell was beating Kid Gohan up aswell, moreso then Cell did to Goku, Goku > Gohan, until SSJ2.
That was Goku's plan all along, he saw Gohan transform in the RoSaT to SSJ2, and that was his plan. SSJ Goku > SSJ Gohan, but not SSJ2. Obviously.

I heartily disagree, my good man, and here's why:

1. Gohan transforming in the RoSaT is, again, filler. The only thing we get in the manga is this:

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P6.5, P7.1-6
Context: after Goku asks Gohan to be the next one to fight Cell
Piccolo: “Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”
Goku: “Piccolo, Gohan has more unbelievable power than we think. Think about it. He’s fought the same as everyone since he was a little squirt…When I was about his age, I wasn’t anything special.”
Kuririn: “B-but even if he’s become a Super Saiyan…Th-this is so quick…”
Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released.”

2. Goku said Gohan was the only one who could win against Cell. When Gohan powered up, Cell said Goku wasn't bluffing but that Gohan wouldn't be able to beat him. The key part there is that Cell only negated the part where Goku said Gohan could beat him, leaving out the part where Goku implied Gohan was stronger.

Chapter: 403 (DBZ 209), P1.1-3
Context: Goku talking to Cell about Cell's next opponent (ie Gohan)
Goku: “The Cell Games will probably end with this next match. Since if he loses, there won’t be anyone else who could win against you…[ ] But from fighting you just now, I think this guy really can beat you after all."

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!”
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”

3. Gohan thought Goku's and Cell's fight looked like they were holding back, implying he was a lot stronger than them.

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P6.5, P7.1-6
Context: after Goku asks Gohan to be the next one to fight Cell
Piccolo: “Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”
Goku: “Piccolo, Gohan has more unbelievable power than we think. Think about it. He’s fought the same as everyone since he was a little squirt…When I was about his age, I wasn’t anything special.”
Kuririn: “B-but even if he’s become a Super Saiyan…Th-this is so quick…”
Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released. Why don’t we try asking him? How about it, Gohan? Did you think that dad and Cell’s fight just now was too incredible and you couldn’t keep up?”
Gohan: “N-no, I didn’t think so…But neither of you were fighting all-out, right…!?”
Goku: “I don’t know about Cell, but I was going all-out. So in other words, to you it felt like I was holding back?”

4. Goku was at a noticeable disadvantage against Cell. You can argue this all you want, but it was seen and stated by Vegeta.

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P10.1
Vegeta: “It drives me crazy, but I’ll admit it…Despite doing all that special training, I didn’t surpass Kakarot…Th-that bastard’s a genius…But Cell is 1 or 2 steps above even him…”

On the other hand, Gohan was at an advantage against Cell. He easily dodged Cell's attacks, prompting Cell to use his full speed.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

Even after Cell ups his speed, he can't inflict any damage on Gohan apart from a superficial bleeding forehead, which you'll see why is not a sign of actual damage in a moment. When Cell blasts Gohan into the mountain, everyone thinks he's dead except Goku, who states that Gohan's chi hadn't lowered even one bit.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P12.6-7
Context: after Cell beats up on Gohan
Goku: “Don’t panic, Piccolo. Gohan’s ki hasn’t fallen one bit, has it?”
Kuririn: “Ah…It-it’s true…!”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P14.2
Context: after Gohan isn’t fazed much by Cell’s attack
Cell: “..Well, this is a surprise…You’re exceptionally tough, aren’t you?…”

5. Later on, Piccolo starts freaking out, making Goku feel guilty about sending his only son into a battle like this without even telling him the plan, BUT he says that Gohan is #1 out of all of them.

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P12.1
Piccolo: “Don’t forget…! Even if his power is #1, he’s still a kid…!”

Do you understand now why Gohan, even as a Super Saiyan, was a good lot ahead of Goku? Dabura was compared to this Cell, and Gohan wasn't doing too bad against him.

MSSjin Kid Gohan > Perfect Cell (@Gohan, max speed) > Perfect Cell (@Goku, "1 or 2 steps ahead") = Dabura >/> MSSjin Teen Gohan > MSSjin Goku

Going by feats and statements, you should be able to see why the above chain makes sense.^
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About RoSaT, I already said that. Gohan had to beg Goku not to go easy on him, Goten wasn't bleeding, Gohan was then going easy on his little brother, all there is to it.

Compare Piccolo and Gohan, where Gohan was busted up, had a lump on his head for days.

That was training for a life-or-death battle. Piccolo didn't care for Gohan at that point either. Sparring is a different form of training, where you can use your full ability and not try to kill your opponent.

"Sparring is a form of training common to many combat sports. Although the precise form varies, it is essentially relatively 'free-form' fighting, with enough rules, customs, or agreements to make injuries unlikely."

There is also Gohan's statement about the kids surpassing him if he continues to not train. If the Super Saiyan kids were really weaker than him in Base, then he would have no reason to worry about such a thing occurring, yet he's very concerned about it. It's mentioned in the context of the tournament training, too, by the way.
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Well then tell Kamikaze not to use manga the be-end of all of the DBZ series, there's more then that.

I use manga in canon debates and filler in non-canon debates where permeable. If you can't debate canon without bringing non-canon into it, then you don't have to debate this. You can, like I said, make another topic geared toward filler, or take your leave. Nobody is forcing you to debate this. :unsure:

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Edited by Pyrus, Oct 12 2012, 07:21 PM.
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