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did gohan turn ssj or ssj 2 to defeat broly?
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Topic Started: Sep 15 2012, 05:56 PM (19,685 Views)
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+ Pyrus
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Sep 16 2012, 08:59 PM
Post #46
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- Super Gohan
- Sep 16 2012, 08:47 PM
- Brofist
- Sep 16 2012, 07:53 PM
Nah, Goku was there and there's honestly plenty of evidence to say so.
A.) You can physically hear Goku's steps when he drops down
B.) more importantly, Broly and Goten at leat make the point of recognizing Goku. This is much obvious with Broly, as one could provide an argument that Goku was only their in spirit somehow to provide support for Gohan and Goten. However, the fact that Broly can also see Goku kind of points to the fact that, Goku really was there.
If it were, it wouldn't be left ambiguous. You're simply taking an interpretation towards your own preference . It wouldn't be the first time Toei made Goku's spirit interacting with the living world audible. In Episode 193, Goku's pat on Gohan's shoulder can also be heard. Broly confused Goten for Goku. So we're not left to believe that he actually sees Goku's physical presence, when the one he confuses for him earlier was standing right there. It's a little odd that Broly wouldn't call out Goku's name when Goten jumped in, instead of when Goku was "wished" back to life, then. Plus Movie 11 confirms Goku was there, so there's that.
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EMIYA
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Sep 16 2012, 09:05 PM
Post #47
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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long a** post, spoilers.
Spoiler: click to toggle Who says its a different timeline? Did Toei come up and decide that? This is the exact same thing I was talking about with the SSj2 Goku thing how Toei just decided Goku should be an SSj2. Although in that case, I was notified on how the chapter that Goku's first showed his transformation in Shounen Jump appeared before movie 10.
Canon>movie. There's no reason to accept Toei's point of view over the canon material we are given. Toei has less authority than the Daiz. itself and even that has a few loopholes, contradictions and inconsistencies to it as well. As far as Toei's own creations, Broly, Cooler, Slug, etc goes, while they need to make sense in some regards, there's not much of argument I can bring up on them. There's no direct canon to these characters accept the movies themselves and so if Toei says something about them, I hope it makes sense but I have to take it as it is.
But Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, all these characters have a direct canon to the and the canon for Gohan states that he's weaker.
But...for the sake of this argument also, let's say that we do have SSj2 Movie 10 Gohan being stronger than his Budokai self. There is still too many inconsistencies with Broly at this time.
Movie 8: The LSSJ Broly at full power (And I say full power because due to the way Broly's ki works on a steady rise and has to be released to stop him from harming his body) casually went up and toyed with 1 Super Namek, 2 Ascended Saiyans and 2 Master Super Saiyans like he it was nothing. Goku proceeded to take the energy of his half beaten friends, all in their base form and trump Broly. I and I'm sure everyone else would agree that this is wacked beyond belief.
Movie 10: Broly is said to have become stronger from I believe statements from the Daiz. I can accept this, due to the Saiyan Zenkais. However IRC, the Daiz also points out that as people get closer to Super Saiyan and afterwards, Zenkais become less and less. Movie 8 Broly shouldn't be any stronger than a Full Powered Perfect cell.
When Cell got a Zenkai, he came up to rivaling SSj2 Chibi Gohan. When Broly apparently got one, he went up into going way past SSj2 Chibi Gohan (If we got by the point that Movie 10 SSj2 Gohan is stronger than his Cell games counter part) but also now stronger than SSj2 Goku, though in this case there might not be a difference in movie 10 SSj2 Gohan and SSj2 Goku. This is already putting Broly up on the extreme high SSj2 caliber, all the way to the low end scale of SSj3.
Base Gohan was actually putting up a decent fight against SSj Broly, though with admittance to not only Broly having the advantage, but with the point of Broly also not being as serious. Once Gohan went SSj2, Broly instantly stopped laughing and immediately changed into his LSSJ state (Which as movie 8 pointed out, Broly's ki supposedly rises at a steady base until his physical body can't handle it anymore) We don't see much of Broly releasing anything in his LSSJ state in movie 10 until his final attack
Now it might depend on your interpretations of amplifiers for the SSj, but the most common one we have is the 50x multiplier. Then you add whatever amplifier for SSj2 you want, 2x, 2.5x, etc, and you have SSj2 Gohan being well over 50x, even to 100x or more depending on how you view it from his base self. While I'm not beyond to believe that Broly was holding back, Base Gohan was still able to maneuver around SSJ Broly, dodge and block a few hits and even create a shield to stop his blast.
There is also points during the fight where Broly actually is shown to be taking the fight relatively serious, teeth grinding and all that. This leads to all sorts of inconsistencies unless you take a different approach on a few things.
A.) SSJ Broly is severely, and I do mean severely screwing with base Gohan so badly to the point where its not even funny. Evidence in the movie shows that while Broly was probably not being as serious and had a small advantage over Gohan at the time, we're not given the point that he's screwing with him that bad.
B.) Your amplifier of the SSj and SSj2 isn't nearly as high as the 50x or even 10x for that matter. Not to mention we know that it takes a very low amplifier, less than 2x for an opponent to have a serious advantage against another person.
C.) If B isn't true, then your amplifier for the LSSJ would have to be ridiculously huge
It's a balls worth of inconsistencies that even the most hardcore Broly fan thinkneeds serious work.
Then Movie 11, good old Bio Broly: Nothing was ever said in the dub, though not that I'd ever use that, but was anything ever stated about Broly's power decreasing in either the sub or the Daizenshuu or some other regards? We know Broly gained an unnatural weakness to water and due to the fluids, he gained a few abilties such as regeneration along with his other abilities.
The entire point of Broly's ki increasing and needing to be blown off seemed to have just be ignored unless we put all the constant blasting as the way of expelling his ki. Now if there is no statement regarding that Broly got weaker than we have the nice bit on how Broly went from destroying an extreme high end SSj2, to suddenly having difficulties with two Super Saiyan children. Not to mention I don't think anything was ever mentioned on how the fluids that transformed Broly would have weakened him anyways.
For Bio Broly, it's a bit less certain on how his power relates to his previous forms, only because I don't have as much knowledge on the original source for it as I do the other movies, but its beyond certain that Broly has a heavy inconsistency of his power throughout the movies.
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Sircum
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Sep 16 2012, 09:10 PM
Post #48
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Spoiler: click to toggle Who says its a different timeline? Did Toei come up and decide that? This is the exact same thing I was talking about with the SSj2 Goku thing how Toei just decided Goku should be an SSj2. Although in that case, I was notified on how the chapter that Goku's first showed his transformation in Shounen Jump appeared before movie 10.
Canon>movie. There's no reason to accept Toei's point of view over the canon material we are given. Toei has less authority than the Daiz. itself and even that has a few loopholes, contradictions and inconsistencies to it as well. As far as Toei's own creations, Broly, Cooler, Slug, etc goes, while they need to make sense in some regards, there's not much of argument I can bring up on them. There's no direct canon to these characters accept the movies themselves and so if Toei says something about them, I hope it makes sense but I have to take it as it is.
But Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, all these characters have a direct canon to the and the canon for Gohan states that he's weaker.
But...for the sake of this argument also, let's say that we do have SSj2 Movie 10 Gohan being stronger than his Budokai self. There is still too many inconsistencies with Broly at this time.
Movie 8: The LSSJ Broly at full power (And I say full power because due to the way Broly's ki works on a steady rise and has to be released to stop him from harming his body) casually went up and toyed with 1 Super Namek, 2 Ascended Saiyans and 2 Master Super Saiyans like he it was nothing. Goku proceeded to take the energy of his half beaten friends, all in their base form and trump Broly. I and I'm sure everyone else would agree that this is wacked beyond belief.
Movie 10: Broly is said to have become stronger from I believe statements from the Daiz. I can accept this, due to the Saiyan Zenkais. However IRC, the Daiz also points out that as people get closer to Super Saiyan and afterwards, Zenkais become less and less. Movie 8 Broly shouldn't be any stronger than a Full Powered Perfect cell.
When Cell got a Zenkai, he came up to rivaling SSj2 Chibi Gohan. When Broly apparently got one, he went up into going way past SSj2 Chibi Gohan (If we got by the point that Movie 10 SSj2 Gohan is stronger than his Cell games counter part) but also now stronger than SSj2 Goku, though in this case there might not be a difference in movie 10 SSj2 Gohan and SSj2 Goku. This is already putting Broly up on the extreme high SSj2 caliber, all the way to the low end scale of SSj3.
Base Gohan was actually putting up a decent fight against SSj Broly, though with admittance to not only Broly having the advantage, but with the point of Broly also not being as serious. Once Gohan went SSj2, Broly instantly stopped laughing and immediately changed into his LSSJ state (Which as movie 8 pointed out, Broly's ki supposedly rises at a steady base until his physical body can't handle it anymore) We don't see much of Broly releasing anything in his LSSJ state in movie 10 until his final attack
Now it might depend on your interpretations of amplifiers for the SSj, but the most common one we have is the 50x multiplier. Then you add whatever amplifier for SSj2 you want, 2x, 2.5x, etc, and you have SSj2 Gohan being well over 50x, even to 100x or more depending on how you view it from his base self. While I'm not beyond to believe that Broly was holding back, Base Gohan was still able to maneuver around SSJ Broly, dodge and block a few hits and even create a shield to stop his blast.
There is also points during the fight where Broly actually is shown to be taking the fight relatively serious, teeth grinding and all that. This leads to all sorts of inconsistencies unless you take a different approach on a few things.
A.) SSJ Broly is severely, and I do mean severely screwing with base Gohan so badly to the point where its not even funny. Evidence in the movie shows that while Broly was probably not being as serious and had a small advantage over Gohan at the time, we're not given the point that he's screwing with him that bad.
B.) Your amplifier of the SSj and SSj2 isn't nearly as high as the 50x or even 10x for that matter. Not to mention we know that it takes a very low amplifier, less than 2x for an opponent to have a serious advantage against another person.
C.) If B isn't true, then your amplifier for the LSSJ would have to be ridiculously huge
It's a balls worth of inconsistencies that even the most hardcore Broly fan thinkneeds serious work.
Then Movie 11, good old Bio Broly: Nothing was ever said in the dub, though not that I'd ever use that, but was anything ever stated about Broly's power decreasing in either the sub or the Daizenshuu or some other regards? We know Broly gained an unnatural weakness to water and due to the fluids, he gained a few abilties such as regeneration along with his other abilities.
The entire point of Broly's ki increasing and needing to be blown off seemed to have just be ignored unless we put all the constant blasting as the way of expelling his ki. Now if there is no statement regarding that Broly got weaker than we have the nice bit on how Broly went from destroying an extreme high end SSj2, to suddenly having difficulties with two Super Saiyan children. Not to mention I don't think anything was ever mentioned on how the fluids that transformed Broly would have weakened him anyways.
For Bio Broly, it's a bit less certain on how his power relates to his previous forms, only because I don't have as much knowledge on the original source for it as I do the other movies, but its beyond certain that Broly has a heavy inconsistency of his power throughout the movies.
1. Different timeline since Gohan trained, and in the real DBZ he didn't. 2. Doesn't matter we are talking about movie logic. 3. Doesn't matter. 4. He has to be. 5. M8 Broly = SPC. Can Cell tank a Kamehameha? No. He got his ***** kicked. 6. He went from SPC level, to low SSj3 tier. 7. Broly was suppressed. Daiz says SSj Broly > MSSJ Goku, unless you think Gohan = MSSj Goku, Broly is suppressed. 8. 50x base for SSj 9. Not really, he only did that when Goku came but then laughed. A) He was suppressed. B) KHH amplifier is the one that matters. C) It could be. 10. Jap > Dub 11. He can control his Ki in M10. 12. It's a non-organic Broly, derp.
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+ Pyrus
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Sep 16 2012, 09:13 PM
Post #49
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Bio-Broly was made from Movie 8 Broly's DNA.
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Sircum
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Sep 16 2012, 09:15 PM
Post #50
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Not my post:
"Also, if we are comparing tanks, LSSJ Broi's tank on MSSj Goku's KHH would probably put him around SPC considering SPC had to brace for Vegeta's blast."
Edited by Sircum, Sep 16 2012, 09:16 PM.
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+ Pyrus
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Sep 16 2012, 09:18 PM
Post #51
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- Sircum
- Sep 16 2012, 09:15 PM
Not my post:
"Also, if we are comparing tanks, LSSJ Broi's tank on MSSj Goku's KHH would probably put him around SPC considering SPC had to brace for Vegeta's blast." I don't think that makes any sense. Initial Perfect Cell didn't have to brace against Super Vegeta's kick, and the gap there would be a lot smaller than the gap between SPC and SSjin Vegeta.
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Super Gohan
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Sep 16 2012, 09:22 PM
Post #52
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- Kamikaze Pyro
- Sep 16 2012, 08:59 PM
It's a little odd that Broly wouldn't call out Goku's name when Goten jumped in, instead of when Goku was "wished" back to life, then. Plus Movie 11 confirms Goku was there, so there's that.
If it's their intention to keep things ambiguous, surely that would be the right time to do it.
Are you referring to Trunks' line? The original dialogue and English script's differ:
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Sircum
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Sep 16 2012, 09:22 PM
Post #53
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- Kamikaze Pyro
- Sep 16 2012, 09:18 PM
- Sircum
- Sep 16 2012, 09:15 PM
Not my post:
"Also, if we are comparing tanks, LSSJ Broi's tank on MSSj Goku's KHH would probably put him around SPC considering SPC had to brace for Vegeta's blast."
I don't think that makes any sense. Initial Perfect Cell didn't have to brace against Super Vegeta's kick, and the gap there would be a lot smaller than the gap between SPC and SSjin Vegeta. I noticed.
Anyways, isn't the KHH amp 5x? If so, the fact Goku obliterated PC with his KHH and Broly tanked the KHH, Broly should still be above FP PC.
Edited by Sircum, Sep 16 2012, 09:22 PM.
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Sep 16 2012, 09:29 PM
Post #54
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- Super Gohan
- Sep 16 2012, 09:22 PM
- Kamikaze Pyro
- Sep 16 2012, 08:59 PM
It's a little odd that Broly wouldn't call out Goku's name when Goten jumped in, instead of when Goku was "wished" back to life, then. Plus Movie 11 confirms Goku was there, so there's that.
If it's their intention to keep things ambiguous, surely that would be the right time to do it. Are you referring to Trunks' line? The original dialogue and English script's differ: 
Darn, fooled by the dub. Thought I was above that. Well, good parry. Seems they did keep it ambiguous throughout.
- Sircum
- Sep 16 2012, 09:22 PM
- Kamikaze Pyro
- Sep 16 2012, 09:18 PM
- Sircum
- Sep 16 2012, 09:15 PM
Not my post:
"Also, if we are comparing tanks, LSSJ Broi's tank on MSSj Goku's KHH would probably put him around SPC considering SPC had to brace for Vegeta's blast."
I don't think that makes any sense. Initial Perfect Cell didn't have to brace against Super Vegeta's kick, and the gap there would be a lot smaller than the gap between SPC and SSjin Vegeta.
I noticed. Anyways, isn't the KHH amp 5x? If so, the fact Goku obliterated PC with his KHH and Broly tanked the KHH, Broly should still be above FP PC.
It's never said what the amp is after the Raditz fight, but Piccolo thought 2.2x was pathetic during his fight with Imperfect Cell.
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Sep 16 2012, 09:45 PM
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I still believe Goku was there. Shenron wouldn't be a **** and send in a mere apparition of Goku...
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Super Gohan
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Sep 16 2012, 09:53 PM
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- Sep 16 2012, 09:45 PM
I still believe Goku was there. Shenron wouldn't be a **** and send in a mere apparition of Goku...
Well he wasn't asked to bring Goku in the first place, that is also a dub line.
Originally, Goten simply asks Shenron for help.
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EMIYA
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Sep 16 2012, 09:53 PM
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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- Sircum
- Sep 16 2012, 09:10 PM
Spoiler: click to toggle Who says its a different timeline? Did Toei come up and decide that? This is the exact same thing I was talking about with the SSj2 Goku thing how Toei just decided Goku should be an SSj2. Although in that case, I was notified on how the chapter that Goku's first showed his transformation in Shounen Jump appeared before movie 10.
Canon>movie. There's no reason to accept Toei's point of view over the canon material we are given. Toei has less authority than the Daiz. itself and even that has a few loopholes, contradictions and inconsistencies to it as well. As far as Toei's own creations, Broly, Cooler, Slug, etc goes, while they need to make sense in some regards, there's not much of argument I can bring up on them. There's no direct canon to these characters accept the movies themselves and so if Toei says something about them, I hope it makes sense but I have to take it as it is.
But Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, all these characters have a direct canon to the and the canon for Gohan states that he's weaker.
But...for the sake of this argument also, let's say that we do have SSj2 Movie 10 Gohan being stronger than his Budokai self. There is still too many inconsistencies with Broly at this time.
Movie 8: The LSSJ Broly at full power (And I say full power because due to the way Broly's ki works on a steady rise and has to be released to stop him from harming his body) casually went up and toyed with 1 Super Namek, 2 Ascended Saiyans and 2 Master Super Saiyans like he it was nothing. Goku proceeded to take the energy of his half beaten friends, all in their base form and trump Broly. I and I'm sure everyone else would agree that this is wacked beyond belief.
Movie 10: Broly is said to have become stronger from I believe statements from the Daiz. I can accept this, due to the Saiyan Zenkais. However IRC, the Daiz also points out that as people get closer to Super Saiyan and afterwards, Zenkais become less and less. Movie 8 Broly shouldn't be any stronger than a Full Powered Perfect cell.
When Cell got a Zenkai, he came up to rivaling SSj2 Chibi Gohan. When Broly apparently got one, he went up into going way past SSj2 Chibi Gohan (If we got by the point that Movie 10 SSj2 Gohan is stronger than his Cell games counter part) but also now stronger than SSj2 Goku, though in this case there might not be a difference in movie 10 SSj2 Gohan and SSj2 Goku. This is already putting Broly up on the extreme high SSj2 caliber, all the way to the low end scale of SSj3.
Base Gohan was actually putting up a decent fight against SSj Broly, though with admittance to not only Broly having the advantage, but with the point of Broly also not being as serious. Once Gohan went SSj2, Broly instantly stopped laughing and immediately changed into his LSSJ state (Which as movie 8 pointed out, Broly's ki supposedly rises at a steady base until his physical body can't handle it anymore) We don't see much of Broly releasing anything in his LSSJ state in movie 10 until his final attack
Now it might depend on your interpretations of amplifiers for the SSj, but the most common one we have is the 50x multiplier. Then you add whatever amplifier for SSj2 you want, 2x, 2.5x, etc, and you have SSj2 Gohan being well over 50x, even to 100x or more depending on how you view it from his base self. While I'm not beyond to believe that Broly was holding back, Base Gohan was still able to maneuver around SSJ Broly, dodge and block a few hits and even create a shield to stop his blast.
There is also points during the fight where Broly actually is shown to be taking the fight relatively serious, teeth grinding and all that. This leads to all sorts of inconsistencies unless you take a different approach on a few things.
A.) SSJ Broly is severely, and I do mean severely screwing with base Gohan so badly to the point where its not even funny. Evidence in the movie shows that while Broly was probably not being as serious and had a small advantage over Gohan at the time, we're not given the point that he's screwing with him that bad.
B.) Your amplifier of the SSj and SSj2 isn't nearly as high as the 50x or even 10x for that matter. Not to mention we know that it takes a very low amplifier, less than 2x for an opponent to have a serious advantage against another person.
C.) If B isn't true, then your amplifier for the LSSJ would have to be ridiculously huge
It's a balls worth of inconsistencies that even the most hardcore Broly fan thinkneeds serious work.
Then Movie 11, good old Bio Broly: Nothing was ever said in the dub, though not that I'd ever use that, but was anything ever stated about Broly's power decreasing in either the sub or the Daizenshuu or some other regards? We know Broly gained an unnatural weakness to water and due to the fluids, he gained a few abilties such as regeneration along with his other abilities.
The entire point of Broly's ki increasing and needing to be blown off seemed to have just be ignored unless we put all the constant blasting as the way of expelling his ki. Now if there is no statement regarding that Broly got weaker than we have the nice bit on how Broly went from destroying an extreme high end SSj2, to suddenly having difficulties with two Super Saiyan children. Not to mention I don't think anything was ever mentioned on how the fluids that transformed Broly would have weakened him anyways.
For Bio Broly, it's a bit less certain on how his power relates to his previous forms, only because I don't have as much knowledge on the original source for it as I do the other movies, but its beyond certain that Broly has a heavy inconsistency of his power throughout the movies.
1. Different timeline since Gohan trained, and in the real DBZ he didn't. 2. Doesn't matter we are talking about movie logic. 3. Doesn't matter. 4. He has to be. 5. M8 Broly = SPC. Can Cell tank a Kamehameha? No. He got his ***** kicked. 6. He went from SPC level, to low SSj3 tier. 7. Broly was suppressed. Daiz says SSj Broly > MSSJ Goku, unless you think Gohan = MSSj Goku, Broly is suppressed. 8. 50x base for SSj 9. Not really, he only did that when Goku came but then laughed. A) He was suppressed. B) KHH amplifier is the one that matters. C) It could be. 10. Jap > Dub 11. He can control his Ki in M10. 12. It's a non-organic Broly, derp. A.) Movie 8 Broly isn't anywhere near SPC so you can get off that right now. MSSJ Cell Games Gohan was already stronger than his father who likewise was leagues above everyone else. A Supressed Perfect Cell using his true speed was casually curbstomping this Gohan and its obvious that a full powered Perfect Cell would've done the exact same thing, if not worse to the fighters that Broly did in movie 8.
B.) Yes, Cell can tank a Kamehameha wave, especially when he's not being suppressed.
B.) Broly never went from SPC level to SSJ3, he was never at SPC's level to begin with in movie 8. To say Broly was at an SSj3 level, even low end, means Gohan shouldn't have been able to break free of his grip and knock him away from the knee. Nor should the combined Kamehameha waves (Much less Trunks' little blast that managed to stop one of Broly's blast) be able to penetrate through what as you say, is a low level SSj3 attack. 2 SSj2+SSj does not= SSj3.
C. The only amplifier for the Kamehameha wave that we have is about 2.3x during the fight with Raditz when Goku's ki went from I believe 416 to 950 or so. A fairly large increase needless to say. Which (especially if you go by the Daiz. levels for SSj Goku and 100% Freeza, leads a lot to be desired. Because if we still had that 2.3x increase it would mean that:
Goku (Freeza Arc) without the use of Kaio-Ken 20 was at a level 3 million (As if you use a 50x SSj increase, you'd get to the Diaz 150 million for SSj Goku. Once Goku used Kaio-Ken X20, it would have shot his level up to 60 million. Already we're having difficulting here and frankly I'm sort of getting away from Broly but while I'm on it. Goku at this point is literally half as strong as Freeza at 100% (120 Million as the Daiz so states) Considering Freeza didn't even start to begin getting into a deeper recessive of his powers until Goku became and SSJ, there's no way in hell that Freeza should've manhandled Kaio-ken 20x Goku like he did.
And now if you put the so called 2.3x amplifier for the Kamehameha (And heck I'll just make it 2x) Goku would have gone from 60 million to a whopping 120 million, right up there with 100% Freeza. Screw blocking it with one hand, Freeza should've been blown into space. Therefore in the amplifier for the Kamehameha is, sort of disportinate. That or the Daiz knows jack crap in regards to PLs regard Goku and Freeza.
D.) Did the Jap dub say anything about Broly's power decreasing? If it did than by all means I won't argue.
E.) What does being non-organic have to do with anything? By all means if Broly is just a clone of the original, and unlike the original never had the time to spread his power out over time. Then that would mean the Broly we see in movie 11 should only have a PL of 10,000 (as he did as a child) plus the 50x SSj + whatever multiplier for LSSJ which shouldn't be extremely high in the first place but you know what, I'll put it as 20x even though I'd never put it that high. Bio Broly should only be at about 10 million, less than 100% Freeza.
- Quote:
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Bio-Broly was made from Movie 8 Broly's DNA.
Same thing as mentioned above, if Bio-Broly was created from Broly's DNA, and unlike the real Broly, never had the time for his powers to grow, nor even go through his basic cycles of life from childhood to adult, or if so, it was heavily rushed, then by all means shouldn't Bio Broly be even weaker than Freeza?
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+ Pyrus
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Sep 16 2012, 09:55 PM
Post #58
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- Brofist
- Sep 16 2012, 09:53 PM
Same thing as mentioned above, if Bio-Broly was created from Broly's DNA, and unlike the real Broly, never had the time for his powers to grow, nor even go through his basic cycles of life from childhood to adult, or if so, it was heavily rushed, then by all means shouldn't Bio Broly be even weaker than Freeza?
Not when he wrecked the Super Saiyan kids, who would casually defecate in Freeza's mouth in just their regular states.
Edited by Pyrus, Sep 16 2012, 09:55 PM.
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Sircum
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Sep 16 2012, 10:01 PM
Post #59
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- Brofist
- Sep 16 2012, 09:53 PM
- Sircum
- Sep 16 2012, 09:10 PM
Spoiler: click to toggle Who says its a different timeline? Did Toei come up and decide that? This is the exact same thing I was talking about with the SSj2 Goku thing how Toei just decided Goku should be an SSj2. Although in that case, I was notified on how the chapter that Goku's first showed his transformation in Shounen Jump appeared before movie 10.
Canon>movie. There's no reason to accept Toei's point of view over the canon material we are given. Toei has less authority than the Daiz. itself and even that has a few loopholes, contradictions and inconsistencies to it as well. As far as Toei's own creations, Broly, Cooler, Slug, etc goes, while they need to make sense in some regards, there's not much of argument I can bring up on them. There's no direct canon to these characters accept the movies themselves and so if Toei says something about them, I hope it makes sense but I have to take it as it is.
But Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, all these characters have a direct canon to the and the canon for Gohan states that he's weaker.
But...for the sake of this argument also, let's say that we do have SSj2 Movie 10 Gohan being stronger than his Budokai self. There is still too many inconsistencies with Broly at this time.
Movie 8: The LSSJ Broly at full power (And I say full power because due to the way Broly's ki works on a steady rise and has to be released to stop him from harming his body) casually went up and toyed with 1 Super Namek, 2 Ascended Saiyans and 2 Master Super Saiyans like he it was nothing. Goku proceeded to take the energy of his half beaten friends, all in their base form and trump Broly. I and I'm sure everyone else would agree that this is wacked beyond belief.
Movie 10: Broly is said to have become stronger from I believe statements from the Daiz. I can accept this, due to the Saiyan Zenkais. However IRC, the Daiz also points out that as people get closer to Super Saiyan and afterwards, Zenkais become less and less. Movie 8 Broly shouldn't be any stronger than a Full Powered Perfect cell.
When Cell got a Zenkai, he came up to rivaling SSj2 Chibi Gohan. When Broly apparently got one, he went up into going way past SSj2 Chibi Gohan (If we got by the point that Movie 10 SSj2 Gohan is stronger than his Cell games counter part) but also now stronger than SSj2 Goku, though in this case there might not be a difference in movie 10 SSj2 Gohan and SSj2 Goku. This is already putting Broly up on the extreme high SSj2 caliber, all the way to the low end scale of SSj3.
Base Gohan was actually putting up a decent fight against SSj Broly, though with admittance to not only Broly having the advantage, but with the point of Broly also not being as serious. Once Gohan went SSj2, Broly instantly stopped laughing and immediately changed into his LSSJ state (Which as movie 8 pointed out, Broly's ki supposedly rises at a steady base until his physical body can't handle it anymore) We don't see much of Broly releasing anything in his LSSJ state in movie 10 until his final attack
Now it might depend on your interpretations of amplifiers for the SSj, but the most common one we have is the 50x multiplier. Then you add whatever amplifier for SSj2 you want, 2x, 2.5x, etc, and you have SSj2 Gohan being well over 50x, even to 100x or more depending on how you view it from his base self. While I'm not beyond to believe that Broly was holding back, Base Gohan was still able to maneuver around SSJ Broly, dodge and block a few hits and even create a shield to stop his blast.
There is also points during the fight where Broly actually is shown to be taking the fight relatively serious, teeth grinding and all that. This leads to all sorts of inconsistencies unless you take a different approach on a few things.
A.) SSJ Broly is severely, and I do mean severely screwing with base Gohan so badly to the point where its not even funny. Evidence in the movie shows that while Broly was probably not being as serious and had a small advantage over Gohan at the time, we're not given the point that he's screwing with him that bad.
B.) Your amplifier of the SSj and SSj2 isn't nearly as high as the 50x or even 10x for that matter. Not to mention we know that it takes a very low amplifier, less than 2x for an opponent to have a serious advantage against another person.
C.) If B isn't true, then your amplifier for the LSSJ would have to be ridiculously huge
It's a balls worth of inconsistencies that even the most hardcore Broly fan thinkneeds serious work.
Then Movie 11, good old Bio Broly: Nothing was ever said in the dub, though not that I'd ever use that, but was anything ever stated about Broly's power decreasing in either the sub or the Daizenshuu or some other regards? We know Broly gained an unnatural weakness to water and due to the fluids, he gained a few abilties such as regeneration along with his other abilities.
The entire point of Broly's ki increasing and needing to be blown off seemed to have just be ignored unless we put all the constant blasting as the way of expelling his ki. Now if there is no statement regarding that Broly got weaker than we have the nice bit on how Broly went from destroying an extreme high end SSj2, to suddenly having difficulties with two Super Saiyan children. Not to mention I don't think anything was ever mentioned on how the fluids that transformed Broly would have weakened him anyways.
For Bio Broly, it's a bit less certain on how his power relates to his previous forms, only because I don't have as much knowledge on the original source for it as I do the other movies, but its beyond certain that Broly has a heavy inconsistency of his power throughout the movies.
1. Different timeline since Gohan trained, and in the real DBZ he didn't. 2. Doesn't matter we are talking about movie logic. 3. Doesn't matter. 4. He has to be. 5. M8 Broly = SPC. Can Cell tank a Kamehameha? No. He got his ***** kicked. 6. He went from SPC level, to low SSj3 tier. 7. Broly was suppressed. Daiz says SSj Broly > MSSJ Goku, unless you think Gohan = MSSj Goku, Broly is suppressed. 8. 50x base for SSj 9. Not really, he only did that when Goku came but then laughed. A) He was suppressed. B) KHH amplifier is the one that matters. C) It could be. 10. Jap > Dub 11. He can control his Ki in M10. 12. It's a non-organic Broly, derp.
A.) Movie 8 Broly isn't anywhere near SPC so you can get off that right now. MSSJ Cell Games Gohan was already stronger than his father who likewise was leagues above everyone else. A Supressed Perfect Cell using his true speed was casually curbstomping this Gohan and its obvious that a full powered Perfect Cell would've done the exact same thing, if not worse to the fighters that Broly did in movie 8. B.) Yes, Cell can tank a Kamehameha wave, especially when he's not being suppressed. B.) Broly never went from SPC level to SSJ3, he was never at SPC's level to begin with in movie 8. To say Broly was at an SSj3 level, even low end, means Gohan shouldn't have been able to break free of his grip and knock him away from the knee. Nor should the combined Kamehameha waves (Much less Trunks' little blast that managed to stop one of Broly's blast) be able to penetrate through what as you say, is a low level SSj3 attack. 2 SSj2+SSj does not= SSj3. C. The only amplifier for the Kamehameha wave that we have is about 2.3x during the fight with Raditz when Goku's ki went from I believe 416 to 950 or so. A fairly large increase needless to say. Which (especially if you go by the Daiz. levels for SSj Goku and 100% Freeza, leads a lot to be desired. Because if we still had that 2.3x increase it would mean that: Goku (Freeza Arc) without the use of Kaio-Ken 20 was at a level 3 million (As if you use a 50x SSj increase, you'd get to the Diaz 150 million for SSj Goku. Once Goku used Kaio-Ken X20, it would have shot his level up to 60 million. Already we're having difficulting here and frankly I'm sort of getting away from Broly but while I'm on it. Goku at this point is literally half as strong as Freeza at 100% (120 Million as the Daiz so states) Considering Freeza didn't even start to begin getting into a deeper recessive of his powers until Goku became and SSJ, there's no way in hell that Freeza should've manhandled Kaio-ken 20x Goku like he did. And now if you put the so called 2.3x amplifier for the Kamehameha (And heck I'll just make it 2x) Goku would have gone from 60 million to a whopping 120 million, right up there with 100% Freeza. Screw blocking it with one hand, Freeza should've been blown into space. Therefore in the amplifier for the Kamehameha is, sort of disportinate. That or the Daiz knows jack crap in regards to PLs regard Goku and Freeza. D.) Did the Jap dub say anything about Broly's power decreasing? If it did than by all means I won't argue. E.) What does being non-organic have to do with anything? By all means if Broly is just a clone of the original, and unlike the original never had the time to spread his power out over time. Then that would mean the Broly we see in movie 11 should only have a PL of 10,000 (as he did as a child) plus the 50x SSj + whatever multiplier for LSSJ which shouldn't be extremely high in the first place but you know what, I'll put it as 20x even though I'd never put it that high. Bio Broly should only be at about 10 million, less than 100% Freeza. - Quote:
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Bio-Broly was made from Movie 8 Broly's DNA.
Same thing as mentioned above, if Bio-Broly was created from Broly's DNA, and unlike the real Broly, never had the time for his powers to grow, nor even go through his basic cycles of life from childhood to adult, or if so, it was heavily rushed, then by all means shouldn't Bio Broly be even weaker than Freeza? A) Opinion. Tell me this: When Goku says RSSJ Broly > MSSj Goku, meaning RSSJ Broly ~ Cell that fought Goku... What does that make LSSj Broly? Sure as hell stronger than FP PC.
B) No he can't. Which is why he got obliterated by Goku, and again by Gohan.
C) LSSJ Broly (M8) is SPC level, he is much much higher than FP PC. Broly was distracted from Gohan, surely you don't have Trunks = Fat Buu when Trunks kicked an off guard Fat Buu away?
2 Amplified SSj2 Kamehameha's + 1 SSj Kamehameha = SSj3 level, low tier.
C.2) It has to be higher for the Cell arc.
D) It never said Broly's power decreasing...
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EMIYA
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Sep 16 2012, 10:05 PM
Post #60
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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- Kamikaze Pyro
- Sep 16 2012, 09:55 PM
- Brofist
- Sep 16 2012, 09:53 PM
Same thing as mentioned above, if Bio-Broly was created from Broly's DNA, and unlike the real Broly, never had the time for his powers to grow, nor even go through his basic cycles of life from childhood to adult, or if so, it was heavily rushed, then by all means shouldn't Bio Broly be even weaker than Freeza?
Not when he wrecked the Super Saiyan kids, who would casually defecate in Freeza's mouth in just their regular states. That still doesn't make much sense though.
Broly movie 8 who with his 10,000 original PL as a baby, SSj and the LSSJ along with the years of whatever he did with his father which may or may not have included fights or even a zenkai or two,
Bio Broly who had a severe time restraint on himself, didn't have any sort of possiblities for something like training or even zenkais and by your very remarks, since he's only a clone he shouldn't be as strong anyways, then, I see no way that Bio Broly should even be on 100% Freeza's level, much less SSj Goten and SSj Trunks.
DNA doesn't change, unless through mutations. Which is kind of why I'm wanting a note on if the fluid was ever said to have weakend Broly. If you had movie 8 broly's DNA, than you should have the basics of movie 8 Broly's power level before SSj or LSSj. As I said, this would be 10,000. Adding in SSj and a utterly high LSSj form would only put Broly at Freeza's level and unlike movie 8 Broly, doesn't have said necessities of training, zenkais, etc.
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