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did gohan turn ssj or ssj 2 to defeat broly?
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Topic Started: Sep 15 2012, 05:56 PM (19,686 Views)
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EMIYA
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Sep 16 2012, 07:39 PM
Post #31
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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- Sircum
- Sep 16 2012, 07:26 PM
- Brofist
- Sep 16 2012, 07:24 PM
You're still not doing anything to provide a logical point to your argument. The hair style can easily be done by the point of how the animation studio does things. The same thing how despite the fact that SSj2 is consistently shown to have lightning in the manga, is often neglected in the anime. Not only do I have the point of wind and animation on my side as a factor of the hair styles. But I also have the canonical factor that movie 10 took place before Goku's fight with Yakon and (and there we don't even see see the specific hair style that SSj2 Goku is supposed to have, as all of his strands are sticking up straight)
It's only during his fight with Buu that we see the hairstyle at the time in the manga, one that was months after the release of the volume of Goku's fight against Yakon and thus months, almost year in fact after movie 10.
If you can provide me evidence in which Toriyama stated Goku was an SSj2 in the movie (Which would only lead to contradiction because if Toriyama claimed he was an SSj2, he should've made the point in saying that Gohan was weaker than before) Or perhaps give me specific evidence of drawings Toriyama might have done in regards to Goku during or before movie 10's release or production such as those we have Gohan and we see the specific differences in him between SSj and SSj2, I might be more willing to believe you.
The concept shows Goku with one bang, so does the animation. Even if they don't know how SSj2 Goku looks like (unlikely) they wanted to make a statement. They took Goku's design off SSj2 Gohan's then. Why in the *****ing hell would Goten still have MSSj hair if Goku and Gohan's hair was affected by wind, and they didn't transform? Obviously, Toei wanted them both to be SSj2. SSj2 Goku is proven, and SSj2 Gohan is proven. You have yet to answer those questions above. There's no evidence at all in saying that the hair stood up before the wind. I can easily claim that the wind, animation style, etc, kicked up before the hair grew up.
Secondly, you're saying that Toei, who has no idea what SSj2 Goku looks like and frankly, wouldn't have known until nearly a year afterwards, decided to randomly make Goku an SSj2 even though he was never stated to have one before? Unless Toriyama spoke to them about this or gave them specific drawings of the styles he expected that Goku should have, it is senseless to think Goku was an SSj2.
We don't eve know how much of an influence Toriyama has on the movies in fact, only that he provides at least a little details with things like character designs. As far as we know, Toriayama is left completely out of the picture in regards to the movie.
Which in point I'll lead to my next statement, what the hell are you talking about? Are you seriously going to say that Toei just decided, on their own to make Goku an SSj2, despite as I mentioned above the fact that SSj2 Goku didn't even appear until a month afterwards and his hair style alone didn't appear until nearly a year afterwards? Are you seriously saying that Toei and their movies have more claim than Toriyama's own manga?
Seriously, you'd best start providing some artwork Toriayama did of Goku as an Ssj2 during or before movie 10, or some sort of statement by Toriyama stating something of the hand that Goku being an SSj2 during the movie. Otherwise, bullcrap, I'm sure as hell not going to take the word of whatever Toei said when it comes in regards to the canonical character especially when they're well known for constantly breaking the canon of the manga not only with their movies but with the manga as well.
Edited by EMIYA, Sep 16 2012, 07:40 PM.
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Sircum
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Sep 16 2012, 07:42 PM
Post #32
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- Brofist
- Sep 16 2012, 07:39 PM
- Sircum
- Sep 16 2012, 07:26 PM
- Brofist
- Sep 16 2012, 07:24 PM
You're still not doing anything to provide a logical point to your argument. The hair style can easily be done by the point of how the animation studio does things. The same thing how despite the fact that SSj2 is consistently shown to have lightning in the manga, is often neglected in the anime. Not only do I have the point of wind and animation on my side as a factor of the hair styles. But I also have the canonical factor that movie 10 took place before Goku's fight with Yakon and (and there we don't even see see the specific hair style that SSj2 Goku is supposed to have, as all of his strands are sticking up straight)
It's only during his fight with Buu that we see the hairstyle at the time in the manga, one that was months after the release of the volume of Goku's fight against Yakon and thus months, almost year in fact after movie 10.
If you can provide me evidence in which Toriyama stated Goku was an SSj2 in the movie (Which would only lead to contradiction because if Toriyama claimed he was an SSj2, he should've made the point in saying that Gohan was weaker than before) Or perhaps give me specific evidence of drawings Toriyama might have done in regards to Goku during or before movie 10's release or production such as those we have Gohan and we see the specific differences in him between SSj and SSj2, I might be more willing to believe you.
The concept shows Goku with one bang, so does the animation. Even if they don't know how SSj2 Goku looks like (unlikely) they wanted to make a statement. They took Goku's design off SSj2 Gohan's then. Why in the *****ing hell would Goten still have MSSj hair if Goku and Gohan's hair was affected by wind, and they didn't transform? Obviously, Toei wanted them both to be SSj2. SSj2 Goku is proven, and SSj2 Gohan is proven. You have yet to answer those questions above.
There's no evidence at all in saying that the hair stood up before the wind. I can easily claim that the wind, animation style, etc, kicked up before the hair grew up. Secondly, you're saying that Toei, who has no idea what SSj2 Goku looks like and frankly, wouldn't have known until nearly a year afterwards, decided to randomly make Goku an SSj2 even though he was never stated to have one before? Unless Toriyama spoke to them about this or gave them specific drawings of the styles he expected that Goku should have, it is senseless to think Goku was an SSj2. We don't eve know how much of an influence Toriyama has on the movies in fact, only that he provides at least a little details with things like character designs. As far as we know, Toriayama is left completely out of the picture in regards to the movie. Which in point I'll lead to my next statement, what the hell are you talking about? Are you seriously going to say that Toei just decided, on their own to make Goku an SSj2, despite as I mentioned above the fact that SSj2 Goku didn't even appear until a month afterwards and his hair style alone didn't appear until nearly a year afterwards? Are you seriously saying that Toei and their movies have more claim than Toriyama's own manga? Seriously, you'd best start providing some artwork Toriayama did of Goku as an Ssj2 during or before movie 10, or some sort of statement by Toriyama stating something of the hand that Goku being an SSj2 during the movie. Otherwise, bullcrap, I'm sure as hell not going to take the world of whatever Toei said when it comes in regards to the canonical character. Toei never knew how SSj2 Goku looked like?
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8378630/1/
We debunked Ninjajp247 already.
We don't need to waste our time with you anymore, or Ninja for that matter.
But i'm still here, I will momentarily keep in watch.
In the meantime, debunk this please.


There was a distinct differentiation between MSSJ Gohan and SSJ2 Gohan in hairstyle, demeanor, and if you look close enough, the eyes.
And why would Gohan neglect to use the strongest form he had when he was getting killed by Broly?
Look at Gohan M10, and look at MSSJ Gohan in the bottom right corner. Do they really look the same?
As for a hypothetical SSJ2 Goku, this has been shown many times before; do note that when M10 came out, burst SSJ2 Goku against Yakon and the statement he ascended beyond SSJ already came out:


And the really funny part is how in this case, the biothunder was anime embellishment. Now, compare these pics to SSJ Goku:



Not only a clear picture of SSJ Goku around the time in the series where Broly would fit in, but also two good pictures of his hair affected by wind. Now for the Kamehameha/wind theory for his hair:




There is no evidence that he wasn't though....Why would Toei suddenly decide to change his hair from this:

to this:

 while this was in the concepts?:

you literally have 0% evidence to prove otherwise.
And they did this flashback scene in movie 11, and here's a screenshot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBp2MnrDT2o ^ at 20:42

and here is SSJ2 Goku:

Here is SSJ2 Kid Gohan during his KHH wave:


His hair was already being blown and his final push didn't pull it much further.
Toei made a statement on Goku's hair, here is his against Pikkon not even blown by wind

Goku's IT KHH on Cell, look at his hair

Pre-Launch:

First Launch on Broly, Pre-Push (ignore the fact that it's flipped)

Look at his MSSJ hair being blown back
Gohan's On Cell, Around the Final Push, pay attention to Goku and Gohan's hair:

In his push:

Before his push:


Goku's MSSJ hair is noticeable here:

Gohan realizes Goku's "NOW!" and this is pre-push again

Gohan's hairstyle is different than the previous one when he starts the KHH; this points to Gohan using 2 different SSJ forms in M10.
Holy *****, important note:
Son Gohan: Our power is not enough! We need more power! Shen Long, please, help! Son Goten: Shen Long brought dad here!
The Dragonballs glow after this and Goku appears.
Goku contributed extra power to the KHH struggle; case *****ing closed.
It zooms out to this very quickly:

With my uber-duber pausing skills, I managed to pause it even more quickly at the very closest it zooms on for about half a second, lol.
Spoiler: click to toggle
link to bigger picture: http://i47.tinypic.com/rk8w1w.png
Edited by Sircum, Sep 16 2012, 07:43 PM.
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+ KingOfAllSaiyans
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Sep 16 2012, 07:45 PM
Post #33
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- Super Gohan
- Sep 16 2012, 07:12 PM
Your entire premise is discrepant though, because Toei never established that Goku was in fact there physically, or just there in spirit; they candidly leave it up to the viewer at the end. So adding an extra transformation on top of a subject that's intentionally left dubious is just counterproductive. Actually yes they do, in movie 11. When Trunks and Goten find Broly in the tube, Trunks says: "Uhh.. Didn't your dad and brother and you beat this guy already?"
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EMIYA
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Sep 16 2012, 07:53 PM
Post #34
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Goku's hair style of an SSj2 was shown before his fight with Buu, I do admit messing that up. But it still doesn't change things and you've yet to give me an answer to the whole "Selective images Toriayama did of Goku BEFORE or during Movie 10 or statements of others"
Movie 10: Released March 12, 1994 (Again, not even taking into consideration of production time before hand)
Volume 37 : April 4, 1994.
March comes before April just in case you didn't know.
Volume 38: The volume in which Goku first shows off his SSj2 powers against Yakon and also the volume in which SSj2 Goku fights SSj2 Majin Vegeta. Was released as the Shueisha website states in "August 4th, 1994"
- Quote:
-
Your entire premise is discrepant though, because Toei never established that Goku was in fact there physically, or just there in spirit; they candidly leave it up to the viewer at the end. So adding an extra transformation on top of a subject that's intentionally left dubious is just counterproductive.
Nah, Goku was there and there's honestly plenty of evidence to say so.
A.) You can physically hear Goku's steps when he drops down
B.) more importantly, Broly and Goten at leat make the point of recognizing Goku. This is much obvious with Broly, as one could provide an argument that Goku was only their in spirit somehow to provide support for Gohan and Goten. However, the fact that Broly can also see Goku kind of points to the fact that, Goku really was there.
Edited by EMIYA, Sep 16 2012, 07:59 PM.
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+ Pyrus
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Sep 16 2012, 07:55 PM
Post #35
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- Brofist
- Sep 16 2012, 07:53 PM
Goku's hair style of an SSj2 was shown before his fight with Buu, I do admit messing that up. But it still doesn't change things and you've yet to give me an answer to the whole "Selective images Toriayama did of Goku BEFORE or during Movie 10 or statements of others"
Movie 10: Released March 12, 1994 (Again, not even taking into consideration of production time before hand)
Volume 37 : April 4, 1994.
March comes before April just in case you didn't know.
Volume 38: The volume in which Goku first shows off his SSj2 powers against Yakon and also the volume in which SSj2 Goku fights SSj2 Majin Vegeta. Was released as the Shueisha website states in "August 4th, 1994"
That's 5 months after the release of Movie 10.
The chapter in which Goku briefly used Super Saiyan 2 was released in Shonen Jump in January of 1994, if that makes a difference to you.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/tankobon/vol-38/
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Sircum
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Sep 16 2012, 07:58 PM
Post #36
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And Kamikaze has this locked and ready.
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EMIYA
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Sep 16 2012, 08:07 PM
Post #37
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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- Kamikaze Pyro
- Sep 16 2012, 07:55 PM
- Brofist
- Sep 16 2012, 07:53 PM
Goku's hair style of an SSj2 was shown before his fight with Buu, I do admit messing that up. But it still doesn't change things and you've yet to give me an answer to the whole "Selective images Toriayama did of Goku BEFORE or during Movie 10 or statements of others"
Movie 10: Released March 12, 1994 (Again, not even taking into consideration of production time before hand)
Volume 37 : April 4, 1994.
March comes before April just in case you didn't know.
Volume 38: The volume in which Goku first shows off his SSj2 powers against Yakon and also the volume in which SSj2 Goku fights SSj2 Majin Vegeta. Was released as the Shueisha website states in "August 4th, 1994"
That's 5 months after the release of Movie 10.
The chapter in which Goku briefly used Super Saiyan 2 was released in Shonen Jump in January of 1994, if that makes a difference to you. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/tankobon/vol-38/ It might, in the case that the chapter itself appeared in the Shounen jump at that time and the full volume was released later on. In such a case as this, painful as it is, then yes, Goku would have shown his SSj2 state before the release of movie 10. But in such a case, this also means that their is still a contradiction in saying Movie 10 Gohan is stronger than his budoaki self.
Because this time, Toei would have known that Gohan is weaker. That is of course unless when Gohan makes the statement of being stronger than the firs time they fought Broly, he's speaking of his change between MSSj and SSj2 and not in an overall sense.
Edited by EMIYA, Sep 16 2012, 08:08 PM.
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Sircum
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Sep 16 2012, 08:11 PM
Post #38
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- Brofist
- Sep 16 2012, 08:07 PM
- Kamikaze Pyro
- Sep 16 2012, 07:55 PM
- Brofist
- Sep 16 2012, 07:53 PM
Goku's hair style of an SSj2 was shown before his fight with Buu, I do admit messing that up. But it still doesn't change things and you've yet to give me an answer to the whole "Selective images Toriayama did of Goku BEFORE or during Movie 10 or statements of others"
Movie 10: Released March 12, 1994 (Again, not even taking into consideration of production time before hand)
Volume 37 : April 4, 1994.
March comes before April just in case you didn't know.
Volume 38: The volume in which Goku first shows off his SSj2 powers against Yakon and also the volume in which SSj2 Goku fights SSj2 Majin Vegeta. Was released as the Shueisha website states in "August 4th, 1994"
That's 5 months after the release of Movie 10.
The chapter in which Goku briefly used Super Saiyan 2 was released in Shonen Jump in January of 1994, if that makes a difference to you. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/tankobon/vol-38/
It might, in the case that the chapter itself appeared in the Shounen jump at that time and the full volume was released later on. In such a case as this, painful as it is, then yes, Goku would have shown his SSj2 state before the release of movie 10. But in such a case, this also means that their is still a contradiction in saying Movie 10 Gohan is stronger than his budoaki self. Because this time, Toei would have known that Gohan is weaker. That is of course unless when Gohan makes the statement of being stronger than the firs time they fought Broly, he's speaking of his change between MSSj and SSj2 and not in an overall sense. Gohan stated he was stronger than the last time he met Broly.
M8 Gohan = Cell Games self
M10 Gohan >> Budokai Gohan
This is a different timeline, yo.
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EMIYA
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Sep 16 2012, 08:13 PM
Post #39
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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- Sircum
- Sep 16 2012, 08:11 PM
- Brofist
- Sep 16 2012, 08:07 PM
- Kamikaze Pyro
- Sep 16 2012, 07:55 PM
- Brofist
- Sep 16 2012, 07:53 PM
Goku's hair style of an SSj2 was shown before his fight with Buu, I do admit messing that up. But it still doesn't change things and you've yet to give me an answer to the whole "Selective images Toriayama did of Goku BEFORE or during Movie 10 or statements of others"
Movie 10: Released March 12, 1994 (Again, not even taking into consideration of production time before hand)
Volume 37 : April 4, 1994.
March comes before April just in case you didn't know.
Volume 38: The volume in which Goku first shows off his SSj2 powers against Yakon and also the volume in which SSj2 Goku fights SSj2 Majin Vegeta. Was released as the Shueisha website states in "August 4th, 1994"
That's 5 months after the release of Movie 10.
The chapter in which Goku briefly used Super Saiyan 2 was released in Shonen Jump in January of 1994, if that makes a difference to you. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/tankobon/vol-38/
It might, in the case that the chapter itself appeared in the Shounen jump at that time and the full volume was released later on. In such a case as this, painful as it is, then yes, Goku would have shown his SSj2 state before the release of movie 10. But in such a case, this also means that their is still a contradiction in saying Movie 10 Gohan is stronger than his budoaki self. Because this time, Toei would have known that Gohan is weaker. That is of course unless when Gohan makes the statement of being stronger than the firs time they fought Broly, he's speaking of his change between MSSj and SSj2 and not in an overall sense.
Gohan stated he was stronger than the last time he met Broly. M8 Gohan = Cell Games self M10 Gohan >> Budokai Gohan This is a different timeline, yo. It's still a contradiction, no matter how you look at it.
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Sircum
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Sep 16 2012, 08:14 PM
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How? It's a different timeline, bro.
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+ Pyrus
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Sep 16 2012, 08:23 PM
Post #41
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Alright, I made a GIF of the scene where Goku's hair changes. It's quick, but I hope you can see it clearly enough.

Hair changes before wind kicks up?
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Super Gohan
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Sep 16 2012, 08:25 PM
Post #42
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- Sircum
- Sep 16 2012, 07:26 PM
The concept shows Goku with one bang, so does the animation. Even if they don't know how SSj2 Goku looks like (unlikely) they wanted to make a statement. They took Goku's design off SSj2 Gohan's then. Why in the *****ing hell would Goten still have MSSj hair if Goku and Gohan's hair was affected by wind, and they didn't transform?
Obviously, Toei wanted them both to be SSj2.
SSj2 Goku is proven, and SSj2 Gohan is proven. You have yet to answer those questions above.
That's not "concept" art. It's a page drawn for Daizenshuu 6 on its section for Movie 10, done long after the film's release.
Just for your information, there are many different animators/studios responsible for drawing each scene, more than enough to fill this page. So why are you posting frames from the anime for the sake of comparison when they wouldn't be done by the same person? The animators use references from Toriyama's illustrations and concept art the character designer provides them. There are many shots of where Goku's hair is styled that way, so an animator shouldn't have any trouble encountering one to use for reference. Goten on the other hand, wouldn't have as many shots to reference from, and if they didn't encounter an image where it his hair was drawn similarly to Goku and Gohan's, it naturally wouldn't be identical.
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+ Pyrus
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Sep 16 2012, 08:27 PM
Post #43
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For reference on that point.^
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/animation-styles/
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Sircum
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Sep 16 2012, 08:29 PM
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Well, we squeezed the balls out of this thread too much.

On point, Gohan was SSj2 in both instances (first fight, final push) and SSj2 Goku appeared in the final push.
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Super Gohan
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Sep 16 2012, 08:47 PM
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- Brofist
- Sep 16 2012, 07:53 PM
Nah, Goku was there and there's honestly plenty of evidence to say so.
A.) You can physically hear Goku's steps when he drops down
B.) more importantly, Broly and Goten at leat make the point of recognizing Goku. This is much obvious with Broly, as one could provide an argument that Goku was only their in spirit somehow to provide support for Gohan and Goten. However, the fact that Broly can also see Goku kind of points to the fact that, Goku really was there.
If it were, it wouldn't be left ambiguous. You're simply taking an interpretation towards your own preference .
It wouldn't be the first time Toei made Goku's spirit interacting with the living world audible. In Episode 193, Goku's pat on Gohan's shoulder can also be heard.
Broly confused Goten for Goku. So we're not left to believe that he actually sees Goku's physical presence, when the one he confuses for him earlier was standing right there.
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