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did gohan turn ssj or ssj 2 to defeat broly?
Topic Started: Sep 15 2012, 05:56 PM (19,687 Views)
Sircum
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Dude, there was a thread that proved more than enough that Goku was SSj2, it's in the second page of the Z Section.

There is no evidence that he wasn't though....Why would Toei suddenly decide to change his hair from this:
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to this:
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while this was in the concepts?:
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you literally have 0% evidence to prove otherwise.

And they did this flashback scene in movie 11, and here's a screenshot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBp2MnrDT2o
^ at 20:42

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and here is SSJ2 Goku:
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What the ***** does wind have to do with anything?

And if it was wind why doesn't Goten have 1 bang and suddenly have spikier hair?

Eh, where is your god now?
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Sircum
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Before you post, take into consideration that SSj2 Goku is infact SSj2 Goku in M10.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

You've still yet to provide any substantial evidence, both logically by canon and by point of statements whether by Toriyama or Toei on this manner. I can easily without contradiction justify the hair styles with wind. The only reason I'd put Gohan as an SSj2 is because we already know Gohan was capable of the transformation before hand. Goku wasn't because (as I've already pointed out) movie 10 was released before Goku's fight against Yakon, which you so proudly seemed to want to deny.

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Goku's fight against Freeza in the anime, firing a Kamehameha. Strange, Goku doesn't have his usual four bangs here either, wow, Goku must have been an SSj2, especially by the logic that you're going by.

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Here's the manga shot of the same image, except here, Goku now has one bang, which is still different than what his usual four bangs are.

Seriously, you have no justifiable reason in saying Goku was an SSj2. It didn't appear in the manga until after movie 10 (as I've pointed out) You have no evidence, by statement or of an interview from Toriayama or Toei saying that Goku was an SSj2 and provide only images which as I've done right now, have debunked as easily being explainable by the presense of the wind and air pressure.

Had Goku actually, you know, been stated to have an SSj2 form before movie 10 was released, was said by either Toei or Toriyama that Goku was an SSj2 and/or Goku actually appeared before hand as an SSj2, you might have a more justifiable argument.
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Sircum
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Wind.


Here is SSJ2 Kid Gohan during his KHH wave:
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His hair was already being blown and his final push didn't pull it much further.

Toei made a statement on Goku's hair, here is his against Pikkon not even blown by wind
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Goku's IT KHH on Cell, look at his hair
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Pre-Launch:
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First Launch on Broly, Pre-Push (ignore the fact that it's flipped)
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Look at his MSSJ hair being blown back

Gohan's On Cell, Around the Final Push, pay attention to Goku and Gohan's hair:
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In his push:
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Before his push:
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Goku's MSSJ hair is noticeable here:
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Gohan realizes Goku's "NOW!" and this is pre-push again
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+ Pyrus
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Like I said, his hair changed before the wind turned up. Unless you can prove that point wrong, you've got nothing.
Spoiler: click to toggle
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Sircum
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Posted Image

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There was a distinct differentiation between MSSJ Gohan and SSJ2 Gohan in hairstyle, demeanor, and if you look close enough, the eyes.

And why would Gohan neglect to use the strongest form he had when he was getting killed by Broly?

Look at Gohan M10, and look at MSSJ Gohan in the bottom right corner. Do they really look the same?

As for a hypothetical SSJ2 Goku, this has been shown many times before; do note that when M10 came out, burst SSJ2 Goku against Yakon and the statement he ascended beyond SSJ already came out:

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And the really funny part is how in this case, the biothunder was anime embellishment. Now, compare these pics to SSJ Goku:

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Not only a clear picture of SSJ Goku around the time in the series where Broly would fit in, but also two good pictures of his hair affected by wind. Now for the Kamehameha/wind theory for his hair:

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SSJ2 Goku appeared in M10, weather you liked it or not.
Edited by Sircum, Sep 16 2012, 07:13 PM.
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Super Gohan
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Sircum
Sep 16 2012, 06:32 PM
There is no evidence that he wasn't though....Why would Toei suddenly decide to change his hair from this:

[...]

while this was in the concepts?:

[...]


It's not uncommon for Goku's hair to be drawn that way, when it is effected by external forces.

Even the relevant scene in the manga from which it is based, depicts it in that similar fashion:

Posted Image

Your entire premise is discrepant though, because Toei never established that Goku was in fact there physically, or just there in spirit; they candidly leave it up to the viewer at the end. So adding an extra transformation on top of a subject that's intentionally left dubious is just counterproductive.
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Sircum
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Super Gohan
Sep 16 2012, 07:12 PM
Sircum
Sep 16 2012, 06:32 PM
There is no evidence that he wasn't though....Why would Toei suddenly decide to change his hair from this:

[...]

while this was in the concepts?:

[...]


It's not uncommon for Goku's hair to be drawn that way, when it is effected by external forces.

Even the relevant scene in the manga from which it is based, depicts it in that similar fashion:

Posted Image

Your entire premise is discrepant though, because Toei never established that Goku was in fact there physically, or just there in spirit; they candidly leave it up to the viewer at the end. So adding an extra transformation on top of a subject that's intentionally left dubious is just counterproductive.
Oh god.

i should just mix all the pictures for the blind people to see:


Posted Image

Posted Image

There was a distinct differentiation between MSSJ Gohan and SSJ2 Gohan in hairstyle, demeanor, and if you look close enough, the eyes.

And why would Gohan neglect to use the strongest form he had when he was getting killed by Broly?

Look at Gohan M10, and look at MSSJ Gohan in the bottom right corner. Do they really look the same?

As for a hypothetical SSJ2 Goku, this has been shown many times before; do note that when M10 came out, burst SSJ2 Goku against Yakon and the statement he ascended beyond SSJ already came out:

Posted Image

Posted Image

And the really funny part is how in this case, the biothunder was anime embellishment. Now, compare these pics to SSJ Goku:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Not only a clear picture of SSJ Goku around the time in the series where Broly would fit in, but also two good pictures of his hair affected by wind. Now for the Kamehameha/wind theory for his hair:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image



There is no evidence that he wasn't though....Why would Toei suddenly decide to change his hair from this:
Posted Image

to this:
Posted Image
Posted Image
while this was in the concepts?:
Posted Image

you literally have 0% evidence to prove otherwise.

And they did this flashback scene in movie 11, and here's a screenshot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBp2MnrDT2o
^ at 20:42

Posted Image

and here is SSJ2 Goku:
Posted Image


Here is SSJ2 Kid Gohan during his KHH wave:
Posted Image
Posted Image

His hair was already being blown and his final push didn't pull it much further.

Toei made a statement on Goku's hair, here is his against Pikkon not even blown by wind
Posted Image

Goku's IT KHH on Cell, look at his hair
Posted Image

Pre-Launch:
Posted Image

First Launch on Broly, Pre-Push (ignore the fact that it's flipped)
Posted Image

Look at his MSSJ hair being blown back

Gohan's On Cell, Around the Final Push, pay attention to Goku and Gohan's hair:
Posted Image

In his push:
Posted Image

Before his push:
Posted Image
Posted Image

Goku's MSSJ hair is noticeable here:
Posted Image

Gohan realizes Goku's "NOW!" and this is pre-push again
Posted Image

@Brofist
Goku was never having SSj2 hair in the second pic, though broseph.

It's different in M10 because his hair changes from 4 bangs to one before the wind kicked in.

You have no justifiable reason why he wasn't SSj2, though. derp.
Edited by Sircum, Sep 16 2012, 07:17 PM.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

You're still not doing anything to provide a logical point to your argument. The hair style can easily be done by the point of how the animation studio does things. The same thing how despite the fact that SSj2 is consistently shown to have lightning in the manga, is often neglected in the anime. Not only do I have the point of wind and animation on my side as a factor of the hair styles. But I also have the canonical factor that movie 10 took place before Goku's fight with Yakon and (and there we don't even see see the specific hair style that SSj2 Goku is supposed to have, as all of his strands are sticking up straight)

It's only during his fight with Buu that we see the hairstyle at the time in the manga, one that was months after the release of the volume of Goku's fight against Yakon and thus months, almost year in fact after movie 10.

If you can provide me evidence in which Toriyama stated Goku was an SSj2 in the movie (Which would only lead to contradiction because if Toriyama claimed he was an SSj2, he should've made the point in saying that Gohan was weaker than before) Or perhaps give me specific evidence of drawings Toriyama might have done in regards to Goku during or before movie 10's release or production such as those we have Gohan and we see the specific differences in him between SSj and SSj2, I might be more willing to believe you.
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+ Pyrus
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Goku's hair changed before the wind happened, Brofist. Is that just Toei shenanigans, you think?
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Sircum
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Brofist
Sep 16 2012, 07:24 PM
You're still not doing anything to provide a logical point to your argument. The hair style can easily be done by the point of how the animation studio does things. The same thing how despite the fact that SSj2 is consistently shown to have lightning in the manga, is often neglected in the anime. Not only do I have the point of wind and animation on my side as a factor of the hair styles. But I also have the canonical factor that movie 10 took place before Goku's fight with Yakon and (and there we don't even see see the specific hair style that SSj2 Goku is supposed to have, as all of his strands are sticking up straight)

It's only during his fight with Buu that we see the hairstyle at the time in the manga, one that was months after the release of the volume of Goku's fight against Yakon and thus months, almost year in fact after movie 10.

If you can provide me evidence in which Toriyama stated Goku was an SSj2 in the movie (Which would only lead to contradiction because if Toriyama claimed he was an SSj2, he should've made the point in saying that Gohan was weaker than before) Or perhaps give me specific evidence of drawings Toriyama might have done in regards to Goku during or before movie 10's release or production such as those we have Gohan and we see the specific differences in him between SSj and SSj2, I might be more willing to believe you.
The concept shows Goku with one bang, so does the animation. Even if they don't know how SSj2 Goku looks like (unlikely) they wanted to make a statement. They took Goku's design off SSj2 Gohan's then. Why in the *****ing hell would Goten still have MSSj hair if Goku and Gohan's hair was affected by wind, and they didn't transform?

Obviously, Toei wanted them both to be SSj2.

SSj2 Goku is proven, and SSj2 Gohan is proven. You have yet to answer those questions above.
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Paikuan extreme
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Brofist
Sep 16 2012, 06:01 PM
Sircum
Sep 16 2012, 05:28 PM
Brofist
Sep 16 2012, 05:26 PM
It's impossible for Goku to have been an SSj2 and it goes by the very reasoning you people put Gohan as an SSj2 and being stronger than his canon self. Due to the fact that movie 10 was released before Vegeta's statement on Gohan's power during the budokai. Well the first instance of Goku ever being known to have SSj2 was during the fight with Yakon which happened after the budokai and thus, after movie 10 was released as well.

Movie 10 was released a few months after Goku went SSj2 in manga, and anime, derp.
Actually, movie 10 was released (and to go even deeper, began production even earlier) before the volume in which Gohan was said to have become weaker by Vegeta during the budokai which took place before Goku was ever stated to have the SSj2 form. To say Goku was an SSj2 is a huge contradiction on your part, especially if you say that Movie 10 Gohan is stronger than his canon self.

Because if Goku's an SSj2, then that means Movie 10 Gohan isn't stronger than his Budokai self.

exactly!!

sircum keeps pretending the movie was made in one day and in reference to the manga, LOL

the movie is made in reference to the anime, and a what if at that.

even if you CAN compare him to teen goha, by how much? and why?

to many unasnwered questions, and people using blowups of still shots knowing the blowing hair and curl that hangs down when its blown back, the ssj2 aura as well.

Never gonna convince me, its just peoples want to believe that this gohan is the same one from the cell universe and not the broly verse created for him.

Its only the peoples opinions here that differ from alot of others, like having broly SSj3 tier and so on.

all conjecture and no evidence points to any of these beliefs, but gohan was drawn as his MSSj form. spiky aura or not. its clearly pre budokai, which is also pre spopo beating up videl. Which is the only time IN the boo saga he even went SSj2. So to believe gohan goes SSj2 for no other reason than to compare him to a gohan he isnt even BASED on? is illogical.
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Sircum
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Paikuan extreme
Sep 16 2012, 07:28 PM
Brofist
Sep 16 2012, 06:01 PM
Sircum
Sep 16 2012, 05:28 PM
Brofist
Sep 16 2012, 05:26 PM
It's impossible for Goku to have been an SSj2 and it goes by the very reasoning you people put Gohan as an SSj2 and being stronger than his canon self. Due to the fact that movie 10 was released before Vegeta's statement on Gohan's power during the budokai. Well the first instance of Goku ever being known to have SSj2 was during the fight with Yakon which happened after the budokai and thus, after movie 10 was released as well.

Movie 10 was released a few months after Goku went SSj2 in manga, and anime, derp.
Actually, movie 10 was released (and to go even deeper, began production even earlier) before the volume in which Gohan was said to have become weaker by Vegeta during the budokai which took place before Goku was ever stated to have the SSj2 form. To say Goku was an SSj2 is a huge contradiction on your part, especially if you say that Movie 10 Gohan is stronger than his canon self.

Because if Goku's an SSj2, then that means Movie 10 Gohan isn't stronger than his Budokai self.

exactly!!

sircum keeps pretending the movie was made in one day and in reference to the manga, LOL

the movie is made in reference to the anime, and a what if at that.

even if you CAN compare him to teen goha, by how much? and why?

to many unasnwered questions, and people using blowups of still shots knowing the blowing hair and curl that hangs down when its blown back, the ssj2 aura as well.

Never gonna convince me, its just peoples want to believe that this gohan is the same one from the cell universe and not the broly verse created for him.

Its only the peoples opinions here that differ from alot of others, like having broly SSj3 tier and so on.

all conjecture and no evidence points to any of these beliefs, but gohan was drawn as his MSSj form. spiky aura or not. its clearly pre budokai, which is also pre spopo beating up videl. Which is the only time IN the boo saga he even went SSj2. So to believe gohan goes SSj2 for no other reason than to compare him to a gohan he isnt even BASED on? is illogical.
The Movie was made in reference to the Anime? Please tell me when Broly has appeared in the anime :3

Compare who to Teen Gohan?

What unanswered questions?

We weren't trying to convince you, anymore. Gohan is an SSj2, period. DOT, bloody hell.

People's opinions differ? Only Brofist, you and Super Gohan are differing at the moment.

All evidence proves that SSj2 Gohan and SSj2 Goku appeared in M10.

qq more.

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Paikuan extreme
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what evidence? you mean the still shots of gokus blownback hair?

even the producers quote cant help you with this one.

and im speaking on a world wide scale. not many people at all believe what you do.
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Sircum
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Paikuan extreme
Sep 16 2012, 07:35 PM
what evidence? you mean the still shots of gokus blownback hair?

even the producers quote cant help you with this one.

and im speaking on a world wide scale. not many people at all believe what you do.
Goten's hair was never blown back.

done. dot.

You guys have yet to debunk this, the fact that Goten doesn't have SSj2 hair is enough.
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Edited by Sircum, Sep 16 2012, 07:36 PM.
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