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| No.17 and Cell; The awful truth! | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 10 2012, 01:38 AM (2,076 Views) | |
| + Clearin | Sep 11 2012, 12:25 PM Post #31 |
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Sentient just means " Having sense perception; conscious", and 19 does fit that. It doesn't necessarily mean he has a soul though. Gotenks ghosts were also sentient but I highly doubt they had souls. |
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| lunar2 | Sep 12 2012, 04:51 PM Post #32 |
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sentient has nothing to do with origin, it has to do with awareness. Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or be conscious, or to have subjective experiences. do androids feel? yes. #19 was clearly afraid of vegeta (possibly in line with his programming), #16 clearly enjoyed nature (definitely against his programming). Although the term "sentience" is avoided by major artificial intelligence textbooks and researchers, it is sometimes used in popular accounts of AI to describe "human level or higher intelligence". do #16 and #19 have "human level or higher intelligence"? absolutely. In science fiction, an alien, android, robot, hologram, or computer who is described as sentient is usually treated as a fully human character, with similar rights, qualities, and capabilities as any other character. Foremost among these properties is human level intelligence (see above), but sentient characters also typically display desire, will, consciousness, ethics, personality, insight, and many other human qualities. Sentience is being used in this context to describe an essential human property that brings all these other qualities with it. The words "sapience", "self-awareness", and "consciousness" are used in similar ways in science fiction. so, let's look at the qualities of sentient machines in Sci-Fi (which is what DBZ is, soft Sci-Fi) desire: #19's desire to survive, or his desire to fight vegeta in the first place. #16's desire to protect the earth. will: #16 overcame his programming and decided not to attempt to kill goku. personality: moreso #16 than #19, if only because he got more screentime. so yes, #16 and #19 are sentient, and if souls are developed as a consequence of sentience, they have souls. it's only if souls are a consequence of biology (as you seem to believe) that they don't, but since dragonball never states or implies what type of souls they have, we'll never know, and GT's #19 being in hell is not a plothole, since there is no previous plot element to compare it too. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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Sep 12 2012, 05:40 PM Post #33 |
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i guess it depends on how u choose to interpret it. IMO to be sentient is to be aware you are alive and afraid to die once considered. a robot that acts human is more sentient than a built machine given those feelings, if it has any at all. To be sentient does in a sense mean to have a soul, but it has always been believed that something built can not achieve emotion or have real feelings, like remorse and sense of loss, pure joy and other things. Its almost a science fiction philosophy. naturally evolved machine like beings like the transformers, and the cylons, are a better example of AI become sentient. 19 is flat out stated to have a soul by them giving him one. if anything he can be rebuilt, not even in fantasy could a created robot need a ritual to bring ti back from the dead. Simply its Ai chip and a new power source. Give it some sensory tools and its good to go. Even cell had a robotic brain and central nervous system, him having a soul doesnt make sense either. Would you call a terminator sentient? cause thats all cell was, and 19 an earlier model than that. hachiban is more sentient than 19. ju roku's logic circuits were messed up. 19 was an unfeeling machine with one purpose, to obey gero and complete his objective. Edited by Paikuan extreme, Sep 12 2012, 05:43 PM.
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| lunar2 | Sep 12 2012, 06:47 PM Post #34 |
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except that #19 did express emotion. he expressed joy in causing pain, eagerness to fight vegeta himself, greed in gathering more and more energy, and fear of death/destruction. 4 separate emotions. whether those methods are generated by chemical reactions in an organic brain, or by complex programs running on a microchip does not matter they are still a mental process caused by physical reactions. at the most basic level, there is no difference between an organic mind and a synthetic mind of equal capability. and, per your definition of sentient: #19 is aware of his own existence, and is afraid of his destruction, therefore he is sentient. what some philosophers believe does not matter, because any non-biased definition of sentience will recognize #19 as sentient if it recognizes a human as sentient, because #19 displayed the same mental and emotional capabilities as a human. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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Sep 12 2012, 06:57 PM Post #35 |
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His main objective was to be a machine took pride in its job. If anything, 19 laughing is a copied behavior. One emotion seen in gero many times who laughs at doing evil and inflicting pain on others. Vegeta asked if the android felt fear, but you could also say that the android responded To its destruction as opposed to in spite of it. But 16 was aso programmed and made no bones about wanting to kill goku despite everything else going on. he never expressed actual emotion, but showed an appreciation for nature. Same could be said of 19. Both gero and 19 thought they were superior, the robot mirrors its master. |
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| + Clearin | Sep 12 2012, 07:07 PM Post #36 |
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lunar, what do you think of Gotenks ghosts? Do you believe they have souls? |
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| lunar2 | Sep 12 2012, 07:11 PM Post #37 |
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you do realize that any argument you could make about #19 merely copying behaviors he's seen gero do apply to humans, as well, right? the vast majority of our personality is merely a response to the environment we developed in, and the rest is programmed in through genetics. we actually make very few choices of our own in terms of our beliefs and personality. that's why i say that any definition of sentience that includes us also includes AIs of similar capabilities. also, yes #19 responded to the threat on his life. he responded with absolute panic. scrabbling at the wall trying to physically climb out (when he's perfectly capable of flight) while screaming is not a programmed response, it's panic. unless you think that Dr. Gero actually programmed his androids to panic when faced with more powerful opponents (he wouldn't do that), #19 showed real fear at that point. edit: at ghosts. no. if they had/were souls, then they would have been revived along with everything else on earth. they are in the same class of creature as a multiform, they may have awareness, but at best, they share gotenks' soul, they don't have their own since they don't have a separate existence from him. Edited by lunar2, Sep 12 2012, 07:15 PM.
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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Sep 12 2012, 07:14 PM Post #38 |
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Eh. 19 doesn't have a soul. If he did, he'd have life force, correct? Which means that he'd also have chi. Which he doesn't. |
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| lunar2 | Sep 12 2012, 07:19 PM Post #39 |
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actually, in gt he does have ki (apparently spiritual machines use ki instead of the ki analog used by physical machines). besides, nowhere is life stated to be a requirement for a soul. that was the entire nature of the debate of the status of his soul. DBGT souls are caused by consciousness, not by life, while DB never states either way. so yes, as far as GT goes, #19 DOES have a soul, and it is not a plothole, because no material ever contradicts that. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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Sep 12 2012, 07:23 PM Post #40 |
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Yeah, but then in GT that would mean he's alive or once was because he uses chi. However, you're saying that if he has a soul, it doesn't mean he's alive. It is a plothole, so to speak. 19 was never ''alive.'' He was a machine, and machines don't experience life as humans do. |
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Sep 12 2012, 07:27 PM Post #41 |
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right, but i dont know if 19 has a positronic matrix or not. His ability to learn can be reduced to instant input or self discovery, and 19 doesnt seem like much of a scholar. But isnt there a difference between expressing emotions, and feeling them? Understanding why they exist and what they are for? Its what the very idea of a conscience is based on. |
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| lunar2 | Sep 13 2012, 06:44 PM Post #42 |
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but who says they don't experience life as we do? that is an unfounded assumption. there is absolutely no evidence that a sufficiently advanced android would experience the world any differently than a human. what if the android was designed to perfectly mimic a human? it has sensors that allow it to feel exactly as we feel, its cameras see exactly as we see, its computer brain simulates a human brain's functions exactly. without specialized equipment, it would be impossible for anyone, including the android, to know that it isn't human. at that point, does the machine have a soul? do the materials it's made of and the process of its creation really make any difference? @plothole. once again: THERE CAN BE NO PLOT HOLE WHEN THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION WITHIN THE PLOT. the plot never stated the androids don't have souls. nothing ever states that life is a prerequisite of a soul. in fact, nothing even states that if you are alive, you automatically have ki. for all we know, robots are alive in dragonball, because nothing says different. yes, sensing #19 MIGHT be a plothole. #19 having a soul is not a plothole, because there is no contradicting plot. there isn't even any contradiction in reality, because nothing with any authority on the matter of souls actually states that only humans have souls. note that for the purposes of this argument, an individual priest etc. is not considered an authority on the subject, because the faith they represent has nothing to say on the matter in any source material. none of the scientists trying to identify and understand the soul can say whether an AI would have a soul, because they're still not sure what the soul is. none of the major holy texts say whether or not an AI has a soul, and many of them don't even explicitly state that humans have souls. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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Sep 13 2012, 07:27 PM Post #43 |
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Still confused. It was established that Boo and Cell have souls, and experience life like humans, because they can use chi which is derived from life force. Therefore, 19 does not use chi, and does not experience life, which makes him using chi in GT a plothole. As for this soul stuff, you might be right. I can't say either way. Edit: I'd just like to mention something. If you're right about this soul stuff, that would mean that Android 16 is alive and well somewhere. However, every official databook says he'd dead and gone. Edited by GridZero, Sep 13 2012, 07:30 PM.
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| + Clearin | Sep 13 2012, 07:33 PM Post #44 |
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Well Android 8 was wished back with everyone else, so there's that. Although I believe a guidebook (Daiz most likely) said #8 was a human-based android like 17 and 18 were, depends if you want to believe that or not. Edit: Or maybe #8 wasn't wished back with the humans but rather with the same wish that brought the cars and other machines back. |
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Sep 13 2012, 07:37 PM Post #45 |
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Android 8 was once human, like 17 and 18. It's in his Daiz 7 bio. So according to this logic, 16 is alive, but it's contradicted by the Daiz. |
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