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| No.17 and Cell; The awful truth! | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 10 2012, 01:38 AM (2,077 Views) | |
| dangerousbob | Sep 10 2012, 04:53 AM Post #16 |
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This is a paradox. How can 17 have been meant to be stronger then Cell because Cell gets his power from 17. The Doctor built Cell AFTER he build the Androids to Merge with the Androids. So if 17 had some dormant power it would have been given to Cell. Paradox paradox!!! If I remember right: Gero even said to 17 when making cell "You wont even tred water next to (Cell)" Think of what Cell would have been like had he had Super 17 in him. Woah. that'd be one tough cookie. |
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| + Kyouks | Sep 10 2012, 05:15 AM Post #17 |
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Initial Imperfect Cell was weaker than 17, yet he was meant to absorb him. Also, Gero most likely referred to 17's power on the surface (or you could attribute it to AT not being involved with GT's story...).
Edited by Kyouks, Sep 10 2012, 05:16 AM.
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| dangerousbob | Sep 10 2012, 05:23 AM Post #18 |
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I agree. With cell I always thought what made him so dangerous was that he could increase his power like the Sayians. It was implied that he would absorb as many humans as needed before going after the droids. The big weakness with the androids despite their strength was that they had a set power level that could be surpassed eventually which was why he made cell, just in case Goku managed to get stronger then the droids he would have a back up. Which was how I always looked at it at least. Remember Gero only knew about the power that Goku had from the Vegeta saga. I cant imagine Gero thinking he would need something as strong as Super 17. I mean that would be waaay over kill given what he knew. Heck he scaled back the power when he made 19. Because even that would be enough to kill the Goku he knew of. |
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| lunar2 | Sep 10 2012, 05:24 PM Post #19 |
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actually, #17 and 18 should be able to gain power through training. their cybernetics were patterned after organic tissue, and we all know what happens to muscles etc. when you train them. @ trunks sensing the cyborgs. they are still mostly human. maybe he was sensing their natural ki, and it felt the same because 17 and 18 are twins? |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| + Pyrus | Sep 10 2012, 05:45 PM Post #20 |
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That's what I would think, but they couldn't sense anything from them in Z, so it's odd. |
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| lunar2 | Sep 10 2012, 06:42 PM Post #21 |
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in the android arc, they thought they were machines, not upgraded people. they probably didn't even try to sense such a small amount of ki. by the buu arc, no situation requiring it came up, until GT. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| + Pyrus | Sep 10 2012, 06:46 PM Post #22 |
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Hm, they don't even mention trying to sense 17 or 18 like they do with 19 and 20, so maybe they really didn't try. Yeah, your theory works.
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Sep 10 2012, 07:13 PM Post #23 |
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Sensing 19 is still a plothole. 19 even being in Hell is a plothole. |
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| + Pyrus | Sep 10 2012, 07:20 PM Post #24 |
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Yeah, I really have no idea how to explain that. There were other villains that could've replaced him to minimize the amount of plotholes in GT (which isn't many, mind you, just saying). |
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| lunar2 | Sep 10 2012, 08:04 PM Post #25 |
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#19 being in hell is not a plot hole. he was a sentient being. sentient beings have souls. souls go to heaven, hell, or the kais. nowhere in dragonball does it ever state that only organic beings have souls. that is a bias imported by viewers from the real world, where it is still not proven in any sense, because none of the major religions have such a clause in their holy texts, and even the secular scientists that believe in the existence of the soul (there are some) aren't sure exactly what it is, and whether it is a product of a specific biology or merely of consciousness. @sensing #19. that would be a plothole, except we don't know if spiritual machines work the same way as physical machines. it may be that #19's spiritual body uses actual ki, instead of the ki analog used by the normal androids and cyborgs. Edited by lunar2, Sep 10 2012, 08:06 PM.
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| + Clearin | Sep 10 2012, 08:08 PM Post #26 |
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Vegeta (and maybe others I can't remembered) pointed out that Piccolo can't have been fighting the androids because "They don’t give off any presence at all..." And later when Piccolo fights 17 everyone knows that it's an Android he's fighting simply because they can't sense his opponent. |
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| lunar2 | Sep 10 2012, 08:32 PM Post #27 |
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because they aren't trying to sense the miniscule ki that an ordinary human teenager would have. seriously, no one has ever sensed a single pl 3-5 human before, iirc. especially when they aren't looking for powers that small. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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Sep 10 2012, 08:40 PM Post #28 |
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hold up lunar, are u serious about the ANDROID having a soul? unless 19 WAS human and had a brain? i dont see how thats possible. 19 wasnt alive, he was a complete automaton, at least cell was and the cyborgs and 20 were bioorganic. its not hard to develop a bias as to whom has a soul when everything BUT 19 was actually alive to begin with. There is no justification for a built computer with a soul, its not even like hes a transformer and evolved naturally. A transformer i could believe, but an actual robot no different than c3po or r2d2? |
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| lunar2 | Sep 10 2012, 10:58 PM Post #29 |
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there is no more justification for only organic lifeforms having souls than there is for sentient machines having souls. if the soul is a product of consciousness, then all sentient beings, living or otherwise, have souls. if the soul is a product of biology, then all organic lifeforms, regardless of sentience, have souls. so no matter what, something has a soul that most people don't think would have a soul. all we no for a fact is that the true androids are sentient. they are fully conscious of themselves, and are free to make decisions within their programming (and in 16's case, even going directly against his programming in order to defend his ideals). can you honestly tell me, after witnessing 16's actions, that he does not have a soul? if he didn't have a soul, then how was he capable of overriding his programming? after all, isn't one of the signs of a soul free will, the capability to make your own choices regardless of your instincts? programming = instincts and choice = choice. so yes, at least 1 true android in dragonball has been shown to have a soul, so it follows that the other one does, as well. also, who gives a ***** about c-3po or r2-d2 in a dragonball topic. different series, different universe, different rules. I know that droids in star wars (at least in the EU) don't have souls. children of the jedi proved that. that has nothing to do with dragonball, though, since the two series are completely unrelated. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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Sep 11 2012, 09:16 AM Post #30 |
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hopw is he a sentient machine? hes an automaton, a sentient machine would be...ones that evolved naturally, 19 was built from the ground up. Just because he didnt have a control box? i dont know, i hear what ur saying, it just doesnt seem reasonable. Not for a machine based organism, but easily a built robot fits in the automaton category. |
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