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No.17 and Cell; The awful truth!
Topic Started: Sep 10 2012, 01:38 AM (2,075 Views)
+ Pyrus
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If you've been around here long enough, you've probably seen some GT debates where people (like me) have claimed that Super No.17 being so strong isn't a plothole due to what Gero says in the original Japanese version. I went and re-watched the episode and wrote down the lines for you to see that we weren't making stuff up to defend the show. Take a gander.

Episode 42
Time: around 8m30s
Context: Gero and Mu are having a toast to the No.17's connecting through Hell
Gero: "I'm grateful to you, Doctor Mu. This is all thanks to you. If it weren't for your Machine Mutant theories, I doubt I could have ever completed him. But now, finally, the ultimate Artificial Human, which I have been dreaming of for many years, will be completed!"
Mu: "The ultimate Artificial Human?"
Gero: "Yes. Originally, No.17 was supposed to have had tremendous power, greater than even Cell's. However..." *flashback to No.17 disobeying and crushing the remote* "But, because I was unable to completely erase the feelings he had from when he was human, he hated me, after I had rebuilt him. He was an imperfect, unsuccessful creation."
Myuu: "Mm-hmm, so that's why No.17's dormant power remained idle, then."

Episode 42
Time: around 10m
Subject: Super No.17
Gero: "However...this additional No.17 will turn that other, imperfect one into his perfect form. When the two No.17s in that world and the Next World become one, all of the parts within his body will become perfected, and he will become an unprecedented, final weapon, with dominating hidden power!"

If you still don't believe me, I can get screen caps for you, but this should be enough.
Edited by Pyrus, Sep 10 2012, 01:38 AM.
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Paikuan extreme
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i second this, but power greater than cells? he was a part of cells final configuration, if cell didnt NEED 17? he shouldnt have needed to swallow him in order to either mirror or just take his energy source.

No way did gero not have this as the final plan. although....mu's MUTANT idea is what helped gero realize his mistake can be fixed after all, despite not being able to find a way to do it himself.
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+ Kyouks
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It's like how Perfect Cell >>>>> Imperfect Cell + 17 + 18 (in a sense). Yet not many people would call this a plothole.

Good work. :)
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Well, Gero basically said he intended for No.17 to have power greater than Cell's, but had to suppress it down because he wouldn't listen, so Cell became the master plan by default. No.17's power remained dormant until he was perfected by fusing with Hell Fighter No.17. It's weird but it still works.
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Paikuan extreme
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i do smell a plot hole, but thats only to fill it with the idea that mutant 17 would be able to make seventeen start over, wasnt hell 17 the leading personality? its almost like the good boo vs evil boo concept.
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Ahri
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So the dormant part explains his hax against 18 or the hax of super 17?
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Paikuan extreme
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no the energy absorption and the dumb z fighters explains super 17 hax ability, they ALL fed him. Especially vegeta uub and goku.
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Professor Gohan
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None of that was said in the Funi Dub right?

I can't quite remember and I'm in the middle of Z now. So is it best to go on the Japanese version of GT rather than anything else? That is crazy that 17 was basically the final plan the whole time. It's hard to grasp, Cell just thought he was the best and perfect creation of Dr. Gero.
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Paikuan extreme
Sep 10 2012, 01:48 AM
i do smell a plot hole, but thats only to fill it with the idea that mutant 17 would be able to make seventeen start over, wasnt hell 17 the leading personality? its almost like the good boo vs evil boo concept.
The regular No.17 was having his mind controlled from Hell by the other No.17 from what I gathered, so yeah, the evil one was in control.

Another note. About 8 minutes in, No.17 states that the power of Hell is being poured into him while he's still connected at the aura with Hell Fighter No.17. I'm not entirely sure what that means. Is he actually getting more powerful, or just more evil? I guess since the series is focused on power, it would be the former, so No.17 would be even more powerful than normal in that case.

I'll have this Super No.17 Saga stuff figured out, guys! Don't worry!
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Paikuan extreme
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geros computer did the wil of its creator, BUT ....cell DID come from an alternate universe thanx to futures past trunks.

so in reality the androids SHOULD have been the final plan, i see what KP is getting at.
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Super Buutenks
Sep 10 2012, 01:51 AM
So the dormant part explains his hax against 18 or the hax of super 17?

He was stronger than No.18 in the first place, plus he apparently gained power from Hell, too. It's mainly to show how Super No.17 isn't as haxed as some believe.
Professor Gohan
Sep 10 2012, 01:54 AM
None of that was said in the Funi Dub right?

Kind of. Instead of talking about No.17's dormant power, Gero just says that Super No.17 will be the one that's stronger than Cell.

The part about the power of Hell pouring into No.17 is slightly different as well. Instead of saying the power is pouring into him, he says it's pouring over him. Little details like that do matter to some.
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I can't quite remember and I'm in the middle of Z now. So is it best to go on the Japanese version of GT rather than anything else? That is crazy that 17 was basically the final plan the whole time. It's hard to grasp, Cell just thought he was the best and perfect creation of Dr. Gero.

Watching GT in Japanese is a must if you want accuracy. The English dub is terrible, both because it's severely inaccurate and the voices are annoying (mainly Pan's). You get stuff like Rildo saying Goku increased his power "100-fold" when turning Super Saiyan, when in the original he just says Goku hadn't been using even half his power.
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Ahri
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Normal 17 fodderized 18 (not suppose to happen) and Trunks (even more ridicolous) so this 17 must have had his limiter removed or some bs.
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Super Buutenks
Sep 10 2012, 02:02 AM
Normal 17 fodderized 18 (not suppose to happen) and Trunks (even more ridicolous) so this 17 must have had his limiter removed or some bs.
He had gained the power of Hell by the time he fought No.18, so that's excusable. Him beating down Base Trunks is odd since at that point, I don't think he'd absorbed the power of Hell yet. Either he did have the power of Hell or Trunks was just made to look like an off-guard fool to further the plot. No.17 did ambush his limo, after all, and Trunks was trying to protect his driver akin to Gohan protecting Vegeta, so I could see what Toei might've been going for there. Still odd. What's even weirder is that Trunks could apparently sense No.17's chi (and No.18 by default).

Episode 42
Time: 13m
Subject: No.17
Trunks: "T-that Ki! It's the same Ki as No.18-san!"
*No.17 punches him down*
Trunks: "Y-you're No.17-san?"
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Ahri
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^ Is that a possible suggestion of 17 =18 by Toei Trunks logic? ignoring why he even sensed them and 19 in the 1st place
Edited by Ahri, Sep 10 2012, 02:11 AM.
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Super Buutenks
Sep 10 2012, 02:11 AM
^ Is that a possible suggestion of 17 =18 by Toei Trunks logic? ignoring why he even sensed them and 19 in the 1st place
Nah, I don't think so. I think it's just Toei thinking androids/cyborgs have the same type of chi, similar to how Super Saiyans (not mastered ones) have the same type according to Gohan when he said Trunks felt the same as Goku did. Even Toei acknowledged 17 was stronger than 18 back in Z.
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