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| Base Saiyans surpassing 100% Frieza ? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 6 2012, 01:53 PM (14,189 Views) | |
| Selsiuss | Jun 14 2012, 02:02 AM Post #286 |
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There are no permanent limits to power. Characters hit a wall for a time, but they always overcome it. The entire plot of DBZ revolves around getting stronger. Having an unbreakable wall that no power can surpass basically brings the entire plot crumbling down. And Mastered Ssj is the same as Ssj. Just easier to use. Same thing with Mastered Ssj2. Same power boost but just easier on the body. |
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Jun 14 2012, 02:05 AM Post #287 |
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I dont see point of having 3 SSJ transformations if they dont hit wall everytime. Mastered SSJ is SSJ that is pushed to limit + after getting used to SSJ which they got trought training, and also without training they put less strain on body so that they can power up to max SSJ without getting buff. |
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| Selsiuss | Jun 14 2012, 02:14 AM Post #288 |
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They don't power up to Ultra Ssj level or beyond in MSsj form. It's the same power as Ssj but more efficient. What statements do you use to support your claim? Base Vegeta from the Buu saga is not the same as Base Vegeta from the Android Saga. They can't not get stronger in base but increase power as Ssj. Saiyans don't stop getting stronger at 50 million but still have Super Saiyan 1 put them at 50 billion. it doesn't work that way. |
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Jun 14 2012, 02:23 AM Post #289 |
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Ultra Super saiyan is max of SSJ or so called FPSSJ/MSSJ. Trunks pushed himself to limit of SSJ and because he transformed to early, he done it wrong way. The reason Goku told Vegeta that he can get stronger if he goes second time, because he probably knowed that Vegeta didnt reached SSJ limit and used SSJ like base. Well you see my point in why i dont think Base Vegeta > Piccolo. I go by statments in manga as actual limit and only way to be stronger in to train in SSJ body that can take more power. Edited by Super Vegetto, Jun 14 2012, 02:24 AM.
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| Selsiuss | Jun 14 2012, 02:37 AM Post #290 |
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Tell us exactly which statements. Volume. Chapter. Page. Context. Character. I have the entire manga series and access to strength checker. I can prove or disprove you. Let us put this to rest. |
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Jun 14 2012, 02:45 AM Post #291 |
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Now i dont have time because i must go, but during Android saga its all about ascending to next level and not only training in base. And like i already mentioned i use Gokus statment of him and Gohan reaching limits of SSJ. |
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| NavonWise | Jun 14 2012, 03:01 AM Post #292 |
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Isn't he saying the same thing your saying? Lol I don't think he's saying MSSJ is a boost in power.. |
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| Selsiuss | Jun 14 2012, 03:33 AM Post #293 |
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he said that they can power up to max Ssj without getting buff. That means he thinks MSsj is more powerful than, or equal to, Ultra Ssj. And to Super Vegetto: Come back with lots of direct evidence to back up your claim. Post quotes and pages. The burden of proof is on you. If you can't provide it, then you are wrong. |
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| NavonWise | Jun 14 2012, 05:21 AM Post #294 |
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Oh, na that's impossible, USSJ is like a SSJ version 3, ASSJ being a version 2. Those are different transformations, unlike MSSJ which is the same as SSJ just without the strain. |
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Jun 14 2012, 12:38 PM Post #295 |
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Lol if i cant put good evidence that i am wrong ? Wtf ? If base has no limit then neither does SSJ. Than Gokus statment is wrong, right ? Ofc not because i go by his statment. Limit in not getting stronger. Vegeta and Trunks go to time chamber second time, because they are far from limit like Goku. Goku neads transformation and same goes for Gohan because transformation changes body and gives more space for energy suply and progress. Why would they even have SSJ2, SSJ3 if they dont hit limit in previous forms... |
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Jun 14 2012, 01:21 PM Post #296 |
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actually weskur, MSSJ takes ALL the grade powers and puts them into one form. making a full power super saiyan, No grades needed. |
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| Selsiuss | Jun 14 2012, 03:27 PM Post #297 |
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I'm not saying that a saiyan can power up infinitely as a Ssj. I'm not saying that a saiyan of equal base power to another can equal the other's ssj3 form with only ssj1. What I"m saying is that saiyans can always progress further in power. There's not a point in which power just stops. Saiyan forms have limits in that there's only so far a saiyan can power up at one time, and super saiyan forms surpass those limits. A saiyan can only multiply his power to a certain extent with a ssj form, but he can still train to become stronger overall. If a saiyan's fighting a bad guy that is 100x stronger than him, the "limit" of normal ssj means that he needs ssj2 to beat the bad guy, not that there's a point when no matter how hard a saiyan trains, they will never, ever, ever get any stronger without new super saiyan forms no matter what. And please, please, post the quotes from the manga that support your claim. What is said to support permanent limits, and what is said to support MSsj being as strong as, or stronger than, Ultra Ssj. |
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Jun 14 2012, 03:35 PM Post #298 |
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Well i think diffrent. Goku clearly stated it and he even said that he doesnt nead time chamber anymore, yet he says that Vegeta is under him and neads time chamber. 50% FPSSJ Goku > USSJ Trunks. Trunks trained in base and in SSJ find way to ascend but clearly never trained in it. The body didnt got used to his grades so he becomed buff like Vegeta. After time chamber he probably trained SSJ body which made him clearly more proggres and surpassing his previous untrained SSJ body. SSJ Vegeta >= SSJ Trunks > 50% FPSSJ Goku > USSJ Trunks. Edited by Super Vegetto, Jun 14 2012, 03:35 PM.
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| + Clearin | Jun 14 2012, 04:28 PM Post #299 |
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Goku clearly didn't hit his limit in the Cell Games since he continues to train all the way into the EOZ. |
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| Selsiuss | Jun 14 2012, 04:44 PM Post #300 |
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That doesn't mean that MSsj gives a bigger boost than Ultra Ssj. It only means that Goku and Gohan became stronger overall. To my knowledge, there's no statement that says MSsj gives a stronger boost. The best statements regarding Ssj and MSsj are these: Chapter: 387 (DBZ 193), P10.3, P13.1-4 Context: Goku just achieved Super Saiyan Grade III for the first time. Gohan: “Ab-absolutely incredible power! You’ll definitely be able to defeat Cell like this!” [ ] Goku: “I can’t win like this…Probably not…[ ] With my muscles swelled up like this, my power greatly increases, but it kills my speed. Huge power doesn’t mean anything if I can’t hit my opponent…And it uses up energy at too intense a rate. Balance-wise, regular Super Saiyan is best. I know that well enough…” Chapter: 388 (DBZ 194), P1.3 Context: talking to Trunks about Super Saiyan Grade III Cell: “Nothing can come from this sort of transformation that only powers you up…You’re an idiot…” Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7 Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…” Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…” Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!” Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…” Goku and Gohan only use MSsj because it is the most balanced form between power, speed, and energy consumption. Normal Ssj used a larger portion of power sustaining the form, while MSsj uses very little, allowing more energy to be put into battle, making for a more efficient form. Piccolo says that Goku and Gohan can sustain Ssj at an ordinary, everyday level. Viz has Piccolo say "as if it were their norm." This means that MSsj can be sustained at a Saiyan's base level of power, so that when they power up to max, which is only as much as normal Ssj would allow, they are not strained in battle. Not that the form gives a bigger boost than Ultra Ssj. Here's some numbers to illustrate my point, and I'll use SEG multipliers since you seem like the kind of guy who's into that: Vegeta, base: 10 Ssj(50x base): 500 Ascended Ssj(65x base): 650 Trunks, base: 9 Ssj(50x base): 475 Ascended Ssj(65x base): 617.5 Ultra Ssj(75x base): 712.5 Goku, base: 30 50% Mssj(25x base): 750 100% Mssj(50x base): 1500 While normal Ssj is a somewhat fixed state of power, MSsj can be powered up or down freely. That's how I see it. Goku stating that he doesn't need the time chamber anymore does not mean that he has hit his max and can no longer get any stronger no matter what. Goku clearly says that even while doing nothing in the chamber, it's rough in there. He thought it better to rest in the outside world because it was not stressful, and he could keep his strength up. Also remember that he was counting on Gohan to have a chance to fight Cell. And I don't see how your point that Vegeta and Trunks still having room to improve proves your point at all. All it means is that they needed to get stronger to face Cell again. And what about reaching permanent limits? What do you use to support your point of view that Goku reached a permanent wall after the ROSAT? Edited by Selsiuss, Jun 14 2012, 04:56 PM.
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