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Base Saiyans surpassing 100% Frieza ?
Topic Started: Jun 6 2012, 01:53 PM (14,190 Views)
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Everybody can have an opinion. That's what's nice about this place. When they present it and it's proven insurmountably wrong (like the case with Kid Boo and Gohan-Boo), and still go on presenting it as fact, then it turns into ignorance and they should just be, well, ignored.
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NavonWise
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Selsiuss
Jun 13 2012, 10:39 PM
I knew you would say that. "Vegeta wasn't focused on Piccolo."

Here's my response: I think it's in Vegeta's best interest to know exactly how strong everyone around him is. One of his most notable character traits is trying to surpass everyone else's strength. Even before the Cell Game, Vegeta knows that Piccolo is far weaker than 2nd form Cell(Piccolo may or may not have surpassed 2nd form Cell after training in the ROSAT), but the point still stands that Vegeta thinks nothing of contending with Piccolo in the ring. Even if Vegeta thinks that Piccolo is no stronger than he was against 17, that still puts Vegeta's base in the high hundred millions if not billions.

P.S. I didn't mean that Piccolo fought Vegeta at the Cell Game. When I said "Piccolo was face-to-face with Vegeta after Cell announced the Cell Game" I meant exactly that. They were standing right next to each other at the lookout.
Yeah I know what you mean, the only big problem I have with Vegeta saying he can win at base is that it contradicts the statement he gave years before when he said he reached his limit at base. But I guess if you believe there is no limit in DBZ and they can endlessly continue to get stronger, then I can understand why you lean more to that side.
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Weskur
Jun 13 2012, 11:07 PM
Selsiuss
Jun 13 2012, 10:39 PM
I knew you would say that. "Vegeta wasn't focused on Piccolo."

Here's my response: I think it's in Vegeta's best interest to know exactly how strong everyone around him is. One of his most notable character traits is trying to surpass everyone else's strength. Even before the Cell Game, Vegeta knows that Piccolo is far weaker than 2nd form Cell(Piccolo may or may not have surpassed 2nd form Cell after training in the ROSAT), but the point still stands that Vegeta thinks nothing of contending with Piccolo in the ring. Even if Vegeta thinks that Piccolo is no stronger than he was against 17, that still puts Vegeta's base in the high hundred millions if not billions.

P.S. I didn't mean that Piccolo fought Vegeta at the Cell Game. When I said "Piccolo was face-to-face with Vegeta after Cell announced the Cell Game" I meant exactly that. They were standing right next to each other at the lookout.
Yeah I know what you mean, the only big problem I have with Vegeta saying he can win at base is that it contradicts the statement he gave years before when he said he reached his limit at base. But I guess if you believe there is no limit in DBZ and they can endlessly continue to get stronger, then I can understand why you lean more to that side.
Limits are constantly surpassed in DBZ, so I don't find a problem with it, but that's just me.
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manley0702
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Super Vegetto
Jun 13 2012, 10:38 PM
manley0702 :

Goku is > Vegeta who though he can beat Frieza 3nd form. Frieza 3nd form is above Frieza 2nd form that has over million going by manga quotes.

Goku is over million. Goku deflected Friezas death beams, and its 100% proof that he is strongest ( beside Frieza ).

Lets say Goku is : 1.500.000. Goku using 10x Kaio ken puts him on 15.000.000.

Goku 20x Kaio ken puts him on : 30.000.000

Goku SSJ : 75.000.000

Goku cant be only 15 mill even at minimum.
Vegeta can beat Frieza 3rd form? I remember Vegeta struggling with Frieza 1st form.
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manley0702
Jun 13 2012, 11:15 PM
Super Vegetto
Jun 13 2012, 10:38 PM
manley0702 :

Goku is > Vegeta who though he can beat Frieza 3nd form. Frieza 3nd form is above Frieza 2nd form that has over million going by manga quotes.

Goku is over million. Goku deflected Friezas death beams, and its 100% proof that he is strongest ( beside Frieza ).

Lets say Goku is : 1.500.000. Goku using 10x Kaio ken puts him on 15.000.000.

Goku 20x Kaio ken puts him on : 30.000.000

Goku SSJ : 75.000.000

Goku cant be only 15 mill even at minimum.
Vegeta can beat Frieza 3rd form? I remember Vegeta struggling with Frieza 1st form.
Vegeta got Zenaki, and he was sure he is above Frieza 3nd form after seeing Frieza 3nd stomping Piccolo.
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manley0702
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Super Vegetto
Jun 13 2012, 11:21 PM
manley0702
Jun 13 2012, 11:15 PM
Super Vegetto
Jun 13 2012, 10:38 PM
manley0702 :

Goku is > Vegeta who though he can beat Frieza 3nd form. Frieza 3nd form is above Frieza 2nd form that has over million going by manga quotes.

Goku is over million. Goku deflected Friezas death beams, and its 100% proof that he is strongest ( beside Frieza ).

Lets say Goku is : 1.500.000. Goku using 10x Kaio ken puts him on 15.000.000.

Goku 20x Kaio ken puts him on : 30.000.000

Goku SSJ : 75.000.000

Goku cant be only 15 mill even at minimum.
Vegeta can beat Frieza 3rd form? I remember Vegeta struggling with Frieza 1st form.
Vegeta got Zenaki, and he was sure he is above Frieza 3nd form after seeing Frieza 3nd stomping Piccolo.
It would make sense that Vegeta base would be stronger than Goku. He was stronger at base level on earth. He was also beat up more on Namek.
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Selsiuss
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Weskur
Jun 13 2012, 11:07 PM
Yeah I know what you mean, the only big problem I have with Vegeta saying he can win at base is that it contradicts the statement he gave years before when he said he reached his limit at base. But I guess if you believe there is no limit in DBZ and they can endlessly continue to get stronger, then I can understand why you lean more to that side.
What exactly is your evidence for limits? I know that it comes from the Cell saga, after ROSAT training, right? Volume, Chapter, and Page ,please. I'll read through that saga again to see if there's any weight to the claim.
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NavonWise
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Darth Pyrus
Jun 13 2012, 11:14 PM
Weskur
Jun 13 2012, 11:07 PM
Selsiuss
Jun 13 2012, 10:39 PM
I knew you would say that. "Vegeta wasn't focused on Piccolo."

Here's my response: I think it's in Vegeta's best interest to know exactly how strong everyone around him is. One of his most notable character traits is trying to surpass everyone else's strength. Even before the Cell Game, Vegeta knows that Piccolo is far weaker than 2nd form Cell(Piccolo may or may not have surpassed 2nd form Cell after training in the ROSAT), but the point still stands that Vegeta thinks nothing of contending with Piccolo in the ring. Even if Vegeta thinks that Piccolo is no stronger than he was against 17, that still puts Vegeta's base in the high hundred millions if not billions.

P.S. I didn't mean that Piccolo fought Vegeta at the Cell Game. When I said "Piccolo was face-to-face with Vegeta after Cell announced the Cell Game" I meant exactly that. They were standing right next to each other at the lookout.
Yeah I know what you mean, the only big problem I have with Vegeta saying he can win at base is that it contradicts the statement he gave years before when he said he reached his limit at base. But I guess if you believe there is no limit in DBZ and they can endlessly continue to get stronger, then I can understand why you lean more to that side.
Limits are constantly surpassed in DBZ, so I don't find a problem with it, but that's just me.
I consider those normal limits. Like, how many pounds can you lift? Well what ever number it is, that's your limit...for now. You train and you eventually surpass that limit, but there will be a day that for some reason you reach a limit you can't surpass. Well it's the same as DBZ, they keep getting stronger and stronger because they haven't reached that peak yet.
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Selsiuss
Jun 13 2012, 11:27 PM
What exactly is your evidence for limits? I know that it comes from the Cell saga, after ROSAT training, right? Volume, Chapter, and Page ,please. I'll read through that saga again to see if there's any weight to the claim.
Not exactly after the ROSAT training, it's that statement Vegeta gave when he first transformed into a SSJ. He says he reached a wall he couldn't pass, then he transformed into a SSJ meaning the only way he broke that wall was achieving SSJ. Then, again when Cell escapes from Piccolo, when they all gather, Vegeta is pissed and says he'll surpass the SSJ wall and ascend. Now if there was no limit to a base, why ascend if your base can get stronger, since SSJ is just a multiplication? We can say ascending was faster, but it all goes back to Vegeta saying he reached his limits at base.

Then we got Goku, when he woke up again from the heart virus, while talking to Roshi he tells him the only way he can beat Cell it's if he ascends, meaning he too thought he did everything he could have with SSJ. Then fast forward to the Buu saga, we got mystic Gohan. The manga clearly states Old Kai's magic was not the same as Guru or another "releasing potential" ability. When Old Kai tells everyone his ability, Goku's like....ok, we see that all the time. But Old Kai makes it clear his magic goes beyond the normal limits, and I think it's a reason why they call him Ultimate Gohan, cause it make sense all his hidden potential has been brought out to his ultimate limit. Not only that, but when he almost died by Buu, he didn't receive a zenkai when Dende healed him. Buu makes it clear there was no change.

Now I know there is a rumor out there that a zenkai's purpose was for a Saiyan to transform to a SSJ, but the manga never states this. Sure after Frieza the zenkai was not mentioned until when Cell got it, but that doesn't mean is not there since it doesn't have to be said all the time. So these are the reasons why I believe there is a limit to how strong you can get in DBZ.
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Selsiuss
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Weskur
Jun 13 2012, 11:50 PM
Selsiuss
Jun 13 2012, 11:27 PM
What exactly is your evidence for limits? I know that it comes from the Cell saga, after ROSAT training, right? Volume, Chapter, and Page ,please. I'll read through that saga again to see if there's any weight to the claim.
Not exactly after the ROSAT training, it's that statement Vegeta gave when he first transformed into a SSJ. He says he reached a wall he couldn't pass, then he transformed into a SSJ meaning the only way he broke that wall was achieving SSJ. Then, again when Cell escapes from Piccolo, when they all gather, Vegeta is pissed and says he'll surpass the SSJ wall and ascend. Now if there was no limit to a base, why ascend if your base can get stronger, since SSJ is just a multiplication? We can say ascending was faster, but it all goes back to Vegeta saying he reached his limits at base.

Then we got Goku, when he woke up again from the heart virus, while talking to Roshi he tells him the only way he can beat Cell it's if he ascends, meaning he too thought he did everything he could have with SSJ. Then fast forward to the Buu saga, we got mystic Gohan. The manga clearly states Old Kai's magic was not the same as Guru or another "releasing potential" ability. When Old Kai tells everyone his ability, Goku's like....ok, we see that all the time. But Old Kai makes it clear his magic goes beyond the normal limits, and I think it's a reason why they call him Ultimate Gohan, cause it make sense all his hidden potential has been brought out to his ultimate limit. Not only that, but when he almost died by Buu, he didn't receive a zenkai when Dende healed him. Buu makes it clear there was no change.

Now I know there is a rumor out there that a zenkai's purpose was for a Saiyan to transform to a SSJ, but the manga never states this. Sure after Frieza the zenkai was not mentioned until when Cell got it, but that doesn't mean is not there since it doesn't have to be said all the time. So these are the reasons why I believe there is a limit to how strong you can get in DBZ.
Surpassing limits happens all the time in DBZ. For a while, someone may be stuck at a wall, but time and training wins the day. Goku says, after exiting the ROSAT:

DBZ Chapter 197:
Context: Goku says he won't use the ROSAT again, and explains why.
Goku: "It's pretty rough in there, even if you're not doing anything. I'll do better resting my body."
Vegeta: "Ha! Even the great Kakarot admits defeat against the rigors of the room."
Goku: "Maybe. But there's a point where stressing your body is just torture, not training."

This means that if you train too much in a short period, there won't be any big gains in power. Better to have periods of rest between training.

What a lot of people who believe in limits like to use as evidence is Goku's statement when he, Gohan and Chi Chi were having a picnic:

DBZ Chapter 198:
Context: Gohan questions why they are relaxing instead of training.
Goku: "Like I told you, there's no point in pushing any further. We've taken our bodies as far as they can go."

Goku didn't mean that they will never get any stronger(without new Super Saiyan forms), but that it was better to rest before going into battle. Goku and Vegeta did in fact surpass their powers from the Cell Game, as proven when in the Buu saga, Majin Vegeta said:

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P8.1-4
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are about to fight
Goku: “I don’t wanna take any damage from you and have it become Majin Boo’s energy…So I’m gonna end this quickly, at maximum power.”
Vegeta: “I’m looking forward to this…Show me the fruits of your training in the afterlife. *Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 2* Just as I’d expect. Your power is greater than Gohan’s was back then!”

So, that pretty much sums up why there are no permanent limits to power.
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NavonWise
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I really don't see how that proves you can keep getting stronger and that there is no limit. That Goku told Vegeta you have to rest, I mean how is that evidence? I guess you can say Vegeta did not do that, but again Goku agrees to beat Cell he would have to ascend, and if base continues to grow he would have just said, I have to train. It's always a, "I have to go to the next level to beat this guy" it's hardly a, "I have to continue training on this current level so I can beat this guy".

To be honest I do use that sometimes, because it's more like Goku tells Gohan they took their bodies as far as it can go in that level. Remember that Goku had ASSJ and USSJ in his pocket but chose SSJ to be a better form. Goku knew ASSJ was a waist, and so was USSJ.

That I had trouble with but as I kept reading, I saw that it was never stated or shown whether Gohan was stronger than Goku that time in MSSJ. He certainly did not do better than Goku, and if he was able to dodge Cell's attacks...well that's all he was doing. I believe in the Cell saga Goku's base was more powerful than Gohan's so at SSJ2 it's natually Goku would be stronger than Gohan that time. Remember that gohan was just 9 or 10 by that time, and Goku made it clear with Goten and Trunks that Trunks being 1 year older had kind of an advantage over Goten. Gohan in the ROSAT had to first go SSJ to train with Goku, and who knows what level Gohan was by then. Who knows how long it even took him to go SSJ.
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Lets put it this way Weskur : Gohan was initial SSJ2 and Goku is mastered SSJ2. Mastered SSJ gives more boost or lets just say even more than normal 50x, and so will mastered SSJ2 give more boost than initial SSJ2.
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It's not exactly a boost, remember that MSSJ is just getting used to SSJ so your basically able to utilize all of your ki freely now. Instead of having a lot of your ki maintaining the SSJ state, you can now use all of it on attacks, durability, etc. I can see a similar thing with Goku when he achieved SSJ2 during the 7 years. Now we don't know how long it took him to achieve SSJ2 but with how difficult it seems Goku to handle SSJ3 it seems logical that he achieved SSJ2 pretty fast after he died. And training lets say...4 or 3 years with SSJ2 gives him a hell of a time to be able to get used to it a bit.
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Pretty much Goku showed that SSJ can be mastered and that in SSJ body he can get stronger. Thats why i use same thing for SSJ2. He gets initial SSJ2 boost but after pushing his SSJ2 body to limit he gets stronger in it which is the reason : Goku > Gohan in SSJ2 body.

I use Gokus statment of reaching limit, for him and Gohan. Goku didnt neaded to train anymore in SSJ form to achive SSJ2 because like he already said he reached limit in that body.



Edited by Super Vegetto, Jun 14 2012, 01:54 AM.
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And we still have mystic Gohan which I still can't see anyone debunking that. I don't know why a lot of people believe Old Kai's magic is just a regular hidden potential power up when it was CLEARLY stated it goes beyond the normal limits.
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