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Base Saiyans surpassing 100% Frieza ?
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Topic Started: Jun 6 2012, 01:53 PM (14,191 Views)
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SSJ JJ
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Jun 13 2012, 09:48 PM
Post #256
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I would put Frieza somewhere between 200-250 million
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+ Pyrus
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Jun 13 2012, 09:50 PM
Post #257
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- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:45 PM
- Selsiuss
- Jun 13 2012, 09:27 PM
- Teen GohanZ
- Jun 13 2012, 09:18 PM
- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:17 PM
- Selsiuss
- Jun 13 2012, 09:02 PM
- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:00 PM
LOL. No. The manga specifically states that Frieza 100% is 12,000,000. I love debating power levels, but you can't debate manga.
Give us the volume, chapter, and page number in which it is stated. The last power level stated was when Freeza said his second form is "over 1 million."
I just checked. You're right. It's stated in DBZ Sagas. Still though, I think 12,000,000 is a much more accurate estimate than 120,000,000. The jump in power level is unrealistic if he's jumping to +100 million. Just my opinion of course.
Think about this for a second: The last known powerlevel of the entire saga is 2nd form Freeza at "over 1,000,000" Now let's just pretend that's exactly 1,000,000 to make this a bit easier. If Goku was exactly the same power as 2nd form Freeza (Which he obviously wasn't since he was much stronger) then Kaioken x20 Goku would be at 20,000,000. That's already stronger than a supposed "100% final form Freeza".
I've seen some people that believe Goku's powerlevel vs Freeza was 300,000, and not 3,000,000, which would account for his KKx20 not being stronger than 100% Freeza. It's still wrong though. But I must say, chopping off a zero from Goku and Freeza's official power levels at that point would be a more believable jump in power, but we live with what we have. And to manley: The official guidebooks, supervised by the author himself, explicitly state that Goku and Freeza's power levels were 150 and 120 million. It doesn't matter if it's an unreasonable increase in power, it's what the author intended.
So many websites seem to have their power levels at 12 and 15 million. I think many feel those high levels are over exaggerated. 12 and 15 make a whole lot more sense and fit the overall storyline better. A lot of those websites relied on Planet Namek's and MFG's power levels, which were made from the mistranslated guidebook Daizenshuu #7. It doesn't make the numbers any less inaccurate.
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Selsiuss
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Jun 13 2012, 09:52 PM
Post #258
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- manley0702
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- Selsiuss
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- manley0702
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- Selsiuss
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- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:00 PM
LOL. No. The manga specifically states that Frieza 100% is 12,000,000. I love debating power levels, but you can't debate manga.
Give us the volume, chapter, and page number in which it is stated. The last power level stated was when Freeza said his second form is "over 1 million."
I just checked. You're right. It's stated in DBZ Sagas. Still though, I think 12,000,000 is a much more accurate estimate than 120,000,000. The jump in power level is unrealistic if he's jumping to +100 million. Just my opinion of course.
Think about this for a second: The last known powerlevel of the entire saga is 2nd form Freeza at "over 1,000,000" Now let's just pretend that's exactly 1,000,000 to make this a bit easier. If Goku was exactly the same power as 2nd form Freeza (Which he obviously wasn't since he was much stronger) then Kaioken x20 Goku would be at 20,000,000. That's already stronger than a supposed "100% final form Freeza".
I've seen some people that believe Goku's powerlevel vs Freeza was 300,000, and not 3,000,000, which would account for his KKx20 not being stronger than 100% Freeza. It's still wrong though. But I must say, chopping off a zero from Goku and Freeza's official power levels at that point would be a more believable jump in power, but we live with what we have. And to manley: The official guidebooks, supervised by the author himself, explicitly state that Goku and Freeza's power levels were 150 and 120 million. It doesn't matter if it's an unreasonable increase in power, it's what the author intended.
So many websites seem to have their power levels at 12 and 15 million. I think many feel those high levels are over exaggerated. 12 and 15 make a whole lot more sense and fit the overall storyline better. Those websites are fan-made. Not from official sources. They mistranslated the daizenshuu. Go to this website for all of the most accurate information of DBZ power levels you will ever find.
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manley0702
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Jun 13 2012, 09:56 PM
Post #259
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- Selsiuss
- Jun 13 2012, 09:52 PM
- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:45 PM
- Selsiuss
- Jun 13 2012, 09:27 PM
- Teen GohanZ
- Jun 13 2012, 09:18 PM
- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:17 PM
- Selsiuss
- Jun 13 2012, 09:02 PM
- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:00 PM
LOL. No. The manga specifically states that Frieza 100% is 12,000,000. I love debating power levels, but you can't debate manga.
Give us the volume, chapter, and page number in which it is stated. The last power level stated was when Freeza said his second form is "over 1 million."
I just checked. You're right. It's stated in DBZ Sagas. Still though, I think 12,000,000 is a much more accurate estimate than 120,000,000. The jump in power level is unrealistic if he's jumping to +100 million. Just my opinion of course.
Think about this for a second: The last known powerlevel of the entire saga is 2nd form Freeza at "over 1,000,000" Now let's just pretend that's exactly 1,000,000 to make this a bit easier. If Goku was exactly the same power as 2nd form Freeza (Which he obviously wasn't since he was much stronger) then Kaioken x20 Goku would be at 20,000,000. That's already stronger than a supposed "100% final form Freeza".
I've seen some people that believe Goku's powerlevel vs Freeza was 300,000, and not 3,000,000, which would account for his KKx20 not being stronger than 100% Freeza. It's still wrong though. But I must say, chopping off a zero from Goku and Freeza's official power levels at that point would be a more believable jump in power, but we live with what we have. And to manley: The official guidebooks, supervised by the author himself, explicitly state that Goku and Freeza's power levels were 150 and 120 million. It doesn't matter if it's an unreasonable increase in power, it's what the author intended.
So many websites seem to have their power levels at 12 and 15 million. I think many feel those high levels are over exaggerated. 12 and 15 make a whole lot more sense and fit the overall storyline better.
Those websites are fan-made. Not from official sources. They mistranslated the daizenshuu. Go to this website for all of the most accurate information of DBZ power levels you will ever find. Yeah. That's a solid website. I still think it makes more sense if Goku and Frieza were 12 to 15 million. It's much more practical and still puts them at a much higher level than anyone else. It also keeps you from having to go into the billions at EOZ. To each his own I guess.
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NavonWise
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Jun 13 2012, 10:13 PM
Post #260
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Realist Rapper Alive
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- Selsiuss
- Jun 13 2012, 09:40 PM
- Weskur
- Jun 13 2012, 09:32 PM
@Selsiuss I won't say Vegeta was cocky, but I'm not sure if when he said that it included her. Reading that on the manga, they hardly even focused on 18 and I wonder if AT even forgot about her that point. Sure he drew her there but we know there have been few mistakes in DBZ. Also remember this, you can't sense 18, so he wouldn't know exactly how strong she is. When they fought the first time she did not try, so he still wouldn't have a good idea of how strong she really was.
Vegeta knows how strong she is because Super Piccolo fought with 17 evenly, who was stronger than 18. Even if Piccolo is no stronger than he was at that time, Vegeta being willing to possibly fight Piccolo in the tournament without Super Saiyan means that his base is at least as strong as Piccolo was at that time. Sure, Vegeta only came to fight Goku, but there was not a guarantee that he would fight Goku in the first rounds. Vegeta knew the possibility of having to fight multiple opponents, which could have included everyone else there, and he was sure in his ability to beat them all to fight Goku. Now, Vegeta has been sure of himself when he was dead wrong before, but think about it: Piccolo must be at least in the hundred millions or even billions at that time. He has no transformation state. His "base" is his full power. Why would Vegeta be ok with fighting Piccolo without Super Saiyan if his own base power level was only a few dozen million? There's being cocky and then there's being completely insane. But the thing is Vegeta was in the ROSAT with Trunks when Piccolo fought 17, so Vegeta still would not know where to put 17 or 18. As I said before, Vegeta stated he reached a wall with his base, he reached a limit he could not surpass and only broke it when he first transformed. For Vegeta to suddenly be equal to a Piccolo at just base, that would contradict what he said years back and it wouldn't have any meaning. Now I do believe in base Vegeta beating 100% Frieza, but I'm not 100% convinced he can beat Piccolo at base.
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Selsiuss
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Jun 13 2012, 10:15 PM
Post #261
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- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:56 PM
Yeah. That's a solid website. I still think it makes more sense if Goku and Frieza were 12 to 15 million. It's much more practical and still puts them at a much higher level than anyone else. It also keeps you from having to go into the billions at EOZ. To each his own I guess. It's ok to think that it's more reasonable for them to have been 12 and 15 million, as long as you fully know why they absolutely cannot be that low, and accept that they are in fact much stronger than that.
And to Weskur: Vegeta didn't have to be present when Piccolo was fighting 17, there's still the fact that Piccolo was face-to-face with Vegeta after Cell announced the Cell Game, and there's not much reason for anyone to be suppressing at that point. And Piccolo fought the Cell Jr.'s alongside Super Vegeta, so yes, Vegeta does at least know how strong Piccolo was at that time.
Edited by Selsiuss, Jun 13 2012, 10:19 PM.
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NavonWise
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Jun 13 2012, 10:28 PM
Post #262
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Vegeta VS Piccolo on the Cell games? I think I misunderstood you there lol
It depends, Vegeta was having trouble, I don't think he was focusing on how strong the others were. And even Cell stated that only Trunks and Vegeta were putting up a good fight between the jrs, so Piccolo was getting destroyed probably.
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manley0702
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Jun 13 2012, 10:33 PM
Post #263
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- Selsiuss
- Jun 13 2012, 10:15 PM
- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:56 PM
Yeah. That's a solid website. I still think it makes more sense if Goku and Frieza were 12 to 15 million. It's much more practical and still puts them at a much higher level than anyone else. It also keeps you from having to go into the billions at EOZ. To each his own I guess.
It's ok to think that it's more reasonable for them to have been 12 and 15 million, as long as you fully know why they absolutely cannot be that low, and accept that they are in fact much stronger than that. And to Weskur: Vegeta didn't have to be present when Piccolo was fighting 17, there's still the fact that Piccolo was face-to-face with Vegeta after Cell announced the Cell Game, and there's not much reason for anyone to be suppressing at that point. And Piccolo fought the Cell Jr.'s alongside Super Vegeta, so yes, Vegeta does at least know how strong Piccolo was at that time. No. I think it's better to accept that they were 12 and 15 million. There are always going to be inconsistencies. The best we can do is be as consistent as possible. I think 12 and 15 mililon are as consistent as possible. ie. Frieza says that he is fighting at 1% of his true power when he is fighting Goku in his final form. In your estimation that would put him at 1.2 million. We know that can't be right because that was his approximate power level in his 2nd form. Therefore both the "1%" claim and the "120,000,000" claim can't be correct.
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+ Pyrus
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Jun 13 2012, 10:36 PM
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- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 10:33 PM
- Selsiuss
- Jun 13 2012, 10:15 PM
- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:56 PM
Yeah. That's a solid website. I still think it makes more sense if Goku and Frieza were 12 to 15 million. It's much more practical and still puts them at a much higher level than anyone else. It also keeps you from having to go into the billions at EOZ. To each his own I guess.
It's ok to think that it's more reasonable for them to have been 12 and 15 million, as long as you fully know why they absolutely cannot be that low, and accept that they are in fact much stronger than that. And to Weskur: Vegeta didn't have to be present when Piccolo was fighting 17, there's still the fact that Piccolo was face-to-face with Vegeta after Cell announced the Cell Game, and there's not much reason for anyone to be suppressing at that point. And Piccolo fought the Cell Jr.'s alongside Super Vegeta, so yes, Vegeta does at least know how strong Piccolo was at that time.
No. I think it's better to accept that they were 12 and 15 million. There are always going to be inconsistencies. The best we can do is be as consistent as possible. I think 12 and 15 mililon are as consistent as possible. ie. Frieza says that he is fighting at 1% of his true power when he is fighting Goku in his final form. In your estimation that would put him at 1.2 million. We know that can't be right because that was his approximate power level in his 2nd form. Therefore both the "1%" claim and the "120,000,000" claim can't be correct. He said that only in the English anime.
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Super Vegetto
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Jun 13 2012, 10:38 PM
Post #265
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manley0702 :
Goku is > Vegeta who though he can beat Frieza 3nd form. Frieza 3nd form is above Frieza 2nd form that has over million going by manga quotes.
Goku is over million. Goku deflected Friezas death beams, and its 100% proof that he is strongest ( beside Frieza ).
Lets say Goku is : 1.500.000. Goku using 10x Kaio ken puts him on 15.000.000.
Goku 20x Kaio ken puts him on : 30.000.000
Goku SSJ : 75.000.000
Goku cant be only 15 mill even at minimum.
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Selsiuss
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Jun 13 2012, 10:39 PM
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- Weskur
- Jun 13 2012, 10:28 PM
Vegeta VS Piccolo on the Cell games? I think I misunderstood you there lol
It depends, Vegeta was having trouble, I don't think he was focusing on how strong the others were. And even Cell stated that only Trunks and Vegeta were putting up a good fight between the jrs, so Piccolo was getting destroyed probably. I knew you would say that. "Vegeta wasn't focused on Piccolo."
Here's my response: I think it's in Vegeta's best interest to know exactly how strong everyone around him is. One of his most notable character traits is trying to surpass everyone else's strength. Even before the Cell Game, Vegeta knows that Piccolo is far weaker than 2nd form Cell(Piccolo may or may not have surpassed 2nd form Cell after training in the ROSAT), but the point still stands that Vegeta thinks nothing of contending with Piccolo in the ring. Even if Vegeta thinks that Piccolo is no stronger than he was against 17, that still puts Vegeta's base in the high hundred millions if not billions.
P.S. I didn't mean that Piccolo fought Vegeta at the Cell Game. When I said "Piccolo was face-to-face with Vegeta after Cell announced the Cell Game" I meant exactly that. They were standing right next to each other at the lookout.
Edited by Selsiuss, Jun 13 2012, 10:50 PM.
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Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs
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Jun 13 2012, 10:43 PM
Post #267
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Did you even read the links Darth Pyrus provided?
I'll try to reiterate them, might not do so well, I'm a bit tired:
Form 1 Freeza states his battle power to be 530,000quote Chapter: 286 (DBZ 92), P5.4 Freeza: "My battle power is 530,000. But of course, I don't intend to fight you at full power, so you can relax..." After he transforms, he states his battle power to be over 1,000,000quote Chapter: 296 (DBZ 102), P9.1-2 Freeza: "At any rate, my power is excessive. Perhaps I've overdone it... Kukkukku... Incidentally, if [my strength] were put into battle power, it would be over 1,000,000, surely..." For the sake of simplicity, let's say he doubled his power to 1,060,000. Piccolo, after merging with Nail, fights Freeza and seems to be on par with or slightly stronger than him. quote Chapter: 301 (DBZ 107), P2.2-3 Context: after Piccolo and Freeza fight awhile Kuririn: “In-incredible…[Piccolo]’s fighting evenly with Freeza…” Vegeta: “No…no…He’s more than [even]…” Let's just put it at 1,200,000, about. Freeza than powers up to dominate Piccolo quote Chapter: 301 (DBZ 107), P7.4 Context: after Freeza beats up on Piccolo Kuririn: “Wh-what…He wasn’t [fighting] seriously before…” Vegeta: “Wh-what!?” Let's put him at 1,440,000, enough to outclass Piccolo. After Piccolo takes off his weights, he is the one outclassing Freeza, prompting Freeza to transform. We could put Unweighted Piccolo at 1,700,000, give or take. After Freeza transforms to Third Form, he promptly dominates everyone. quote Chapter: 302 (DBZ 108), P12.4, 13.3 Context: as Freeza launches invisible beams at him Piccolo: “H-he’s fast…!” Kuririn: “He’s outrageously fast! There’s no way to dodge that…!” Let's say he's at about 2,300,000, enough to outclass Piccolo heavily. After he reverts to his true form, his power is massively above everyone's, too the point that they cannot see his movements. Somewhere around 2,900,000 would work well. Vegeta gets a near-death boost, thinks himself able to beat Freeza, and is promptly dominated.
Now, when Goku arrives to fight Freeza, he actually does much better than Vegeta does, and goes against Freeza almost evenly, putting him about 3,000,000. Furthermore, he is confident in fighting Freeza, and he had sensed Freeza's power-ups from inside the healing machines.
And then Freeza goes 50% power and dominates him and 20 x Kaio-Ken and the rest and yadda-yadda.
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GridZero
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Jun 13 2012, 10:47 PM
Post #268
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*Walks into thread*

Seriously, if it's gone on this long, he won't change his opinion.
It's fine if he thinks Freeza (100%) > Base Saiyans. It's just his opinion.
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Selsiuss
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Jun 13 2012, 10:52 PM
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- GridZero
- Jun 13 2012, 10:47 PM
*Walks into thread*  Seriously, if it's gone on this long, he won't change his opinion. It's fine if he thinks Freeza (100%) > Base Saiyans. It's just his opinion. But we don't need him spreading that around. Just because it's an opinion doesn't mean we have to let him have it.
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GridZero
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Jun 13 2012, 10:57 PM
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I don't need people spreading around that Base Goku (EoZ) ~ SSJ3 Goku (Boo Saga) either, but I don't mind it. People are entitled to whatever warped opinions they want.
There's a certain someone who thinks Full Power Kid Boo > Boohan, or some ridiculous belief like that. I obviously know that to not be true, so I won't try to sway their opinion otherwise.
Edited by GridZero, Jun 13 2012, 10:57 PM.
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