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Base Saiyans surpassing 100% Frieza ?
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Topic Started: Jun 6 2012, 01:53 PM (14,192 Views)
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manley0702
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Jun 13 2012, 08:09 PM
Post #241
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- Jun 12 2012, 10:54 PM
- Selsiuss
- Jun 12 2012, 10:50 PM
Why did you start the debate if there's no direct evidence within the manga that the base Saiyans did or did not surpass Freeza?
I started debate to see if i missed something, but clearly i didnt. No. You did. There has been enough evidence ITT to say with 99% certainty that base saiyans can surpass Frieza. Android 18 struggling with Goten/Trunks in tournament is the biggest proof as I have her power level at 70,000,000 and Frieza 12,000,000.
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Selsiuss
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Jun 13 2012, 08:37 PM
Post #242
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- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 08:09 PM
- Super Vegetto
- Jun 12 2012, 10:54 PM
- Selsiuss
- Jun 12 2012, 10:50 PM
Why did you start the debate if there's no direct evidence within the manga that the base Saiyans did or did not surpass Freeza?
I started debate to see if i missed something, but clearly i didnt. No. You did. There has been enough evidence ITT to say with 99% certainty that base saiyans can surpass Frieza. Android 18 struggling with Goten/Trunks in tournament is the biggest proof as I have her power level at 70,000,000 and Frieza 12,000,000.
Is that a joke, manley?
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manley0702
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Jun 13 2012, 08:43 PM
Post #243
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- Selsiuss
- Jun 13 2012, 08:37 PM
- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 08:09 PM
- Super Vegetto
- Jun 12 2012, 10:54 PM
- Selsiuss
- Jun 12 2012, 10:50 PM
Why did you start the debate if there's no direct evidence within the manga that the base Saiyans did or did not surpass Freeza?
I started debate to see if i missed something, but clearly i didnt. No. You did. There has been enough evidence ITT to say with 99% certainty that base saiyans can surpass Frieza. Android 18 struggling with Goten/Trunks in tournament is the biggest proof as I have her power level at 70,000,000 and Frieza 12,000,000.
Is that a joke, manley? I believe Frieza's stated power level is 12,000,000 at 100%. Android 18 is should be around 60,000,000 when she fights Vegeta in the android saga, no? I believe that's the exact number that Planet Namek had her at during that saga. What issue do you have with my post?
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HersheyDux
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Jun 13 2012, 08:48 PM
Post #244
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Prince of all Chewing Gum
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- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 08:43 PM
- Selsiuss
- Jun 13 2012, 08:37 PM
- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 08:09 PM
- Super Vegetto
- Jun 12 2012, 10:54 PM
- Selsiuss
- Jun 12 2012, 10:50 PM
Why did you start the debate if there's no direct evidence within the manga that the base Saiyans did or did not surpass Freeza?
I started debate to see if i missed something, but clearly i didnt. No. You did. There has been enough evidence ITT to say with 99% certainty that base saiyans can surpass Frieza. Android 18 struggling with Goten/Trunks in tournament is the biggest proof as I have her power level at 70,000,000 and Frieza 12,000,000.
Is that a joke, manley?
I believe Frieza's stated power level is 12,000,000 at 100%. Android 18 is should be around 60,000,000 when she fights Vegeta in the android saga, no? I believe that's the exact number that Planet Namek had her at during that saga. What issue do you have with my post? 12 million is a misconception.
100% Frieza is 120 Million
SSJ Goku (Namek) is 150 Million
THAT IS FINAL!
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manley0702
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Jun 13 2012, 09:00 PM
Post #245
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- HersheyDux
- Jun 13 2012, 08:48 PM
- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 08:43 PM
- Selsiuss
- Jun 13 2012, 08:37 PM
- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 08:09 PM
- Super Vegetto
- Jun 12 2012, 10:54 PM
- Selsiuss
- Jun 12 2012, 10:50 PM
Why did you start the debate if there's no direct evidence within the manga that the base Saiyans did or did not surpass Freeza?
I started debate to see if i missed something, but clearly i didnt. No. You did. There has been enough evidence ITT to say with 99% certainty that base saiyans can surpass Frieza. Android 18 struggling with Goten/Trunks in tournament is the biggest proof as I have her power level at 70,000,000 and Frieza 12,000,000.
Is that a joke, manley?
I believe Frieza's stated power level is 12,000,000 at 100%. Android 18 is should be around 60,000,000 when she fights Vegeta in the android saga, no? I believe that's the exact number that Planet Namek had her at during that saga. What issue do you have with my post?
12 million is a misconception. 100% Frieza is 120 Million SSJ Goku (Namek) is 150 Million THAT IS FINAL! LOL. No. The manga specifically states that Frieza 100% is 12,000,000. I love debating power levels, but you can't debate manga.
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Selsiuss
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Jun 13 2012, 09:02 PM
Post #246
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- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:00 PM
LOL. No. The manga specifically states that Frieza 100% is 12,000,000. I love debating power levels, but you can't debate manga. Give us the volume, chapter, and page number in which it is stated.
The last power level stated was when Freeza said his second form is "over 1 million."
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manley0702
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Jun 13 2012, 09:17 PM
Post #247
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- Selsiuss
- Jun 13 2012, 09:02 PM
- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:00 PM
LOL. No. The manga specifically states that Frieza 100% is 12,000,000. I love debating power levels, but you can't debate manga.
Give us the volume, chapter, and page number in which it is stated. The last power level stated was when Freeza said his second form is "over 1 million." I just checked. You're right. It's stated in DBZ Sagas. Still though, I think 12,000,000 is a much more accurate estimate than 120,000,000. The jump in power level is unrealistic if he's jumping to +100 million. Just my opinion of course.
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+ Clearin
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Jun 13 2012, 09:18 PM
Post #248
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- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:17 PM
- Selsiuss
- Jun 13 2012, 09:02 PM
- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:00 PM
LOL. No. The manga specifically states that Frieza 100% is 12,000,000. I love debating power levels, but you can't debate manga.
Give us the volume, chapter, and page number in which it is stated. The last power level stated was when Freeza said his second form is "over 1 million."
I just checked. You're right. It's stated in DBZ Sagas. Still though, I think 12,000,000 is a much more accurate estimate than 120,000,000. The jump in power level is unrealistic if he's jumping to +100 million. Just my opinion of course. Think about this for a second: The last known powerlevel of the entire saga is 2nd form Freeza at "over 1,000,000" Now let's just pretend that's exactly 1,000,000 to make this a bit easier.
If Goku was exactly the same power as 2nd form Freeza (Which he obviously wasn't since he was much stronger) then Kaioken x20 Goku would be at 20,000,000. That's already stronger than a supposed "100% final form Freeza".
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manley0702
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Jun 13 2012, 09:26 PM
Post #249
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- Teen GohanZ
- Jun 13 2012, 09:18 PM
- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:17 PM
- Selsiuss
- Jun 13 2012, 09:02 PM
- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:00 PM
LOL. No. The manga specifically states that Frieza 100% is 12,000,000. I love debating power levels, but you can't debate manga.
Give us the volume, chapter, and page number in which it is stated. The last power level stated was when Freeza said his second form is "over 1 million."
I just checked. You're right. It's stated in DBZ Sagas. Still though, I think 12,000,000 is a much more accurate estimate than 120,000,000. The jump in power level is unrealistic if he's jumping to +100 million. Just my opinion of course.
Think about this for a second: The last known powerlevel of the entire saga is 2nd form Freeza at "over 1,000,000" Now let's just pretend that's exactly 1,000,000 to make this a bit easier. If Goku was exactly the same power as 2nd form Freeza (Which he obviously wasn't since he was much stronger) then Kaioken x20 Goku would be at 20,000,000. That's already stronger than a supposed "100% final form Freeza". Good point, but Goku was only 180,000 when he arrived on Namek. I don't think it's realistic to assume that he went from 180,000 to 1,000,000 in that short period of time. I would assume he was at 300,000 base when he faced Frieza and while continuously using Kaioken (as King Kai says he is doing), he can get up to around 6,000,000. Therefore, I think Frieza 12,000,000 and GokuSSJ 15,000,000 is pretty accurate.
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Selsiuss
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Jun 13 2012, 09:27 PM
Post #250
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- Jun 13 2012, 09:18 PM
- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:17 PM
- Selsiuss
- Jun 13 2012, 09:02 PM
- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:00 PM
LOL. No. The manga specifically states that Frieza 100% is 12,000,000. I love debating power levels, but you can't debate manga.
Give us the volume, chapter, and page number in which it is stated. The last power level stated was when Freeza said his second form is "over 1 million."
I just checked. You're right. It's stated in DBZ Sagas. Still though, I think 12,000,000 is a much more accurate estimate than 120,000,000. The jump in power level is unrealistic if he's jumping to +100 million. Just my opinion of course.
Think about this for a second: The last known powerlevel of the entire saga is 2nd form Freeza at "over 1,000,000" Now let's just pretend that's exactly 1,000,000 to make this a bit easier. If Goku was exactly the same power as 2nd form Freeza (Which he obviously wasn't since he was much stronger) then Kaioken x20 Goku would be at 20,000,000. That's already stronger than a supposed "100% final form Freeza". I've seen some people that believe Goku's powerlevel vs Freeza was 300,000, and not 3,000,000, which would account for his KKx20 not being stronger than 100% Freeza.
It's still wrong though.
But I must say, chopping off a zero from Goku and Freeza's official power levels at that point would be a more believable jump in power, but we live with what we have.
And to manley: The official guidebooks, supervised by the author himself, explicitly state that Goku and Freeza's power levels were 150 and 120 million. It doesn't matter if it's an unreasonable increase in power, it's what the author intended.
Edited by Selsiuss, Jun 13 2012, 09:32 PM.
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NavonWise
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Jun 13 2012, 09:32 PM
Post #251
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Realist Rapper Alive
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@Son Gohan Yeah I know lol I never said Viz was better or something, we all know Herms and the anime subs are better than Viz. But again I don't I see how Piccolo saying that means power. As I said the main focus was Shin being the Dai-Kaio-sama or not.
@Selsiuss I won't say Vegeta was cocky, but I'm not sure if when he said that it included her. Reading that on the manga, they hardly even focused on 18 and I wonder if AT even forgot about her that point. Sure he drew her there but we know there have been few mistakes in DBZ. Also remember this, you can't sense 18, so he wouldn't know exactly how strong she is. When they fought the first time she did not try, so he still wouldn't have a good idea of how strong she really was.
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 MI YOUTUBE CHANNEL
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+ Pyrus
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Jun 13 2012, 09:35 PM
Post #252
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http://www.animeforum.org.uk/showthread.php?t=9427 http://www.animeforum.org.uk/showthread.php?t=9428 http://www.animeforum.org.uk/showthread.php?t=9429
12,000,000 is completely inaccurate.
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Selsiuss
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Jun 13 2012, 09:40 PM
Post #253
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- Weskur
- Jun 13 2012, 09:32 PM
@Selsiuss I won't say Vegeta was cocky, but I'm not sure if when he said that it included her. Reading that on the manga, they hardly even focused on 18 and I wonder if AT even forgot about her that point. Sure he drew her there but we know there have been few mistakes in DBZ. Also remember this, you can't sense 18, so he wouldn't know exactly how strong she is. When they fought the first time she did not try, so he still wouldn't have a good idea of how strong she really was. Vegeta knows how strong she is because Super Piccolo fought with 17 evenly, who was stronger than 18. Even if Piccolo is no stronger than he was at that time, Vegeta being willing to possibly fight Piccolo in the tournament without Super Saiyan means that his base is at least as strong as Piccolo was at that time.
Sure, Vegeta only came to fight Goku, but there was not a guarantee that he would fight Goku in the first rounds. Vegeta knew the possibility of having to fight multiple opponents, which could have included everyone else there, and he was sure in his ability to beat them all to fight Goku.
Now, Vegeta has been sure of himself when he was dead wrong before, but think about it: Piccolo must be at least in the hundred millions or even billions at that time. He has no transformation state. His "base" is his full power. Why would Vegeta be ok with fighting Piccolo without Super Saiyan if his own base power level was only a few dozen million? There's being cocky and then there's being completely insane.
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+ Pyrus
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Jun 13 2012, 09:43 PM
Post #254
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Ginyu was able to estimate how powerful Goku was from their fight. Freeza also knew Goku was holding back pre-Kaio-ken x10, despite not being able to sense Ki. Vegeta, who is far superior to both of them even by the Trunks Saga, can't make an accurate guess at #18's power, despite there being other variables (such as Piccolo w/God's power) to help that deduction? I don't buy it. He knew her power.
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manley0702
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Jun 13 2012, 09:45 PM
Post #255
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- Selsiuss
- Jun 13 2012, 09:27 PM
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- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:17 PM
- Selsiuss
- Jun 13 2012, 09:02 PM
- manley0702
- Jun 13 2012, 09:00 PM
LOL. No. The manga specifically states that Frieza 100% is 12,000,000. I love debating power levels, but you can't debate manga.
Give us the volume, chapter, and page number in which it is stated. The last power level stated was when Freeza said his second form is "over 1 million."
I just checked. You're right. It's stated in DBZ Sagas. Still though, I think 12,000,000 is a much more accurate estimate than 120,000,000. The jump in power level is unrealistic if he's jumping to +100 million. Just my opinion of course.
Think about this for a second: The last known powerlevel of the entire saga is 2nd form Freeza at "over 1,000,000" Now let's just pretend that's exactly 1,000,000 to make this a bit easier. If Goku was exactly the same power as 2nd form Freeza (Which he obviously wasn't since he was much stronger) then Kaioken x20 Goku would be at 20,000,000. That's already stronger than a supposed "100% final form Freeza".
I've seen some people that believe Goku's powerlevel vs Freeza was 300,000, and not 3,000,000, which would account for his KKx20 not being stronger than 100% Freeza. It's still wrong though. But I must say, chopping off a zero from Goku and Freeza's official power levels at that point would be a more believable jump in power, but we live with what we have. And to manley: The official guidebooks, supervised by the author himself, explicitly state that Goku and Freeza's power levels were 150 and 120 million. It doesn't matter if it's an unreasonable increase in power, it's what the author intended. So many websites seem to have their power levels at 12 and 15 million. I think many feel those high levels are over exaggerated. 12 and 15 make a whole lot more sense and fit the overall storyline better.
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