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Base Saiyans surpassing 100% Frieza ?
Topic Started: Jun 6 2012, 01:53 PM (14,193 Views)
Selsiuss
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Why did you start the debate if there's no direct evidence within the manga that the base Saiyans did or did not surpass Freeza?
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Super Vegetto
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Selsiuss
Jun 12 2012, 10:50 PM
Why did you start the debate if there's no direct evidence within the manga that the base Saiyans did or did not surpass Freeza?
I started debate to see if i missed something, but clearly i didnt.
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Selsiuss
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Clearly you did.

DBZ Chapter 236
Scene: Everyone's on Bulmas airplane on their way to the tournament. Gohan suggest not using Ssj to avoid being recognized as the fighters from the Cell Game.
Vegeta: "Fine. Whatever. If nobody's a Super Saiyan, we'll be on equal terms. I'll still have the upper hand."

Before you say that Vegeta's just being cocky as always, here he has a right to be. Android 18 is on that plane with them, and will participate in the tournament. Vegeta has fought her before; he knows how strong she is, and knows how much he has improved since then. Vegeta believing he'll have the upper hand against Android 18 without Super Saiyan is a clear indicator that his base surpassed Freeza long ago.
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Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs
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Weskur
Jun 11 2012, 07:19 PM
I guess people have different ways of interpreting that quote. Thing is we don't have any other single clue to prove Shin is light years away from Piccolo, and when a evidence is interpreted differently, is dificult to make it as fact. I had time to think back and skim through my manga and there is a couple things missed, so yeah I think there is a strong possibility that the base Saiyans have surpassed Frieza.
Viz is an adaption of the Japanese manga, in which it is translated, then changed to more suit English readers.

Herms is a direct translation of the Japanese manga, from Japanese to English, and he flat-out stated that it meant Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo.
Selsiuss stated it nigh perfectly. Base Vegeta was confident in winning the tournament, which both Piccolo and #18 were participating in.
Edited by Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs, Jun 12 2012, 11:54 PM.
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Super Vegetto
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Selsiuss
Jun 12 2012, 11:52 PM
Clearly you did.

DBZ Chapter 236
Scene: Everyone's on Bulmas airplane on their way to the tournament. Gohan suggest not using Ssj to avoid being recognized as the fighters from the Cell Game.
Vegeta: "Fine. Whatever. If nobody's a Super Saiyan, we'll be on equal terms. I'll still have the upper hand."

Before you say that Vegeta's just being cocky as always, here he has a right to be. Android 18 is on that plane with them, and will participate in the tournament. Vegeta has fought her before; he knows how strong she is, and knows how much he has improved since then. Vegeta believing he'll have the upper hand against Android 18 without Super Saiyan is a clear indicator that his base surpassed Freeza long ago.
O realy. Vegeta starts loosing by Goku or someone else " turn into SSJ ". And now you say that he wont.

Btw thats like saying Tien, Yamcha, Krillin are above SSJ Trunks because they senced SSJ Trunks ( when Frieza arrived ) who said that Android are stronger than him, and they still whanted to fight Androids because Humans know they are > SSJ Trunks ( arriving in past first time ) right ?

Also if one quote is so obvious then why is there peoples that say Gohan was SSJ against Dabura, when Kaioshin clearly made statment that Kibito didnt saw Gohans enormeus power ?


Piccolo is stomping Base Vegeta ( Boo saga ) and he was always above Base saiyans after Frieza saga.

Vegeta is cocky and arrogant and he will always say that he is the strongest.
Edited by Super Vegetto, Jun 13 2012, 12:55 AM.
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Selsiuss
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Quote:
 
O realy. Vegeta starts loosing by Goku or someone else " turn into SSJ ". And now you say that he wont.

But that didn't happen, did it? Don't use imaginary scenarios in your arguments.

Quote:
 
Btw thats like saying Tien, Yamcha, Krillin are above SSJ Trunks because they sensed SSJ Trunks ( when Frieza arrived ) who said that Android are stronger than him, and they still whanted to fight Androids because Humans know they are > SSJ Trunks ( arriving in past first time ) right ?

Humans want to fight the androids to prevent death and destruction. They're being heroic. This debate is not about that. Stick to the topic.

Quote:
 
Also if one quote is so obvious then why is there peoples that say Gohan was SSJ against Dabura, when Kaioshin clearly made statment that Kibito didnt saw Gohans enormeus power ?

This isn't a Gohan Ssj or Ssj2 vs Dabra debate. Stick to the topic.

Quote:
 
Piccolo is stomping Base Vegeta ( Boo saga ) and he was always above Base saiyans after Frieza saga.

If Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta are willing to compete in the tournament with Piccolo without using Super Saiyan, then it is an indicator that their base forms are at least close enough to Piccolo's power to have a shot at beating him. If Piccolo was so much stronger than their bases someone would have mentioned that Piccolo has an extreme advantage over the base Saiyans. Even if Piccolo and Android 18 are stronger than the base saiyans, the base Saiyans are close enough that they are comfortable in fighting Piccolo and Android 18 in the tournament, which in turn means that the base Saiyans surpassed Freeza's full power.

Quote:
 
Vegeta is cocky and arrogant and he will always say that he is the strongest.

That is his most memorable character trait, but sometimes he is correct
Edited by Selsiuss, Jun 13 2012, 01:22 AM.
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Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs
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Super Vegetto, to claim Base Saiyans < Max Freeza, you have to flat out deny manga quotes and statements. I think that you're almost playing devil's advocate here in the way you're denying manga statements and saying
'the character was wrong', 'the character meant something else', 'the character was being cocky', 'the character was just being afraid because {something never stated}', et cetera...

I think Selsiuss has just about summed up the argument, I don't see how this can be argued any further. So I have to respectfully disagree and leave this discussion ^_^
Edited by Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs, Jun 13 2012, 01:19 AM.
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Super Vegetto
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Son Gohan, let me guess. You still have Pui-Pui > Kaioshin ?

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Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs
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I'm not arguing about Pui-Pui, we'll save that for another thread. All I'm saying is that it should be clear

Max Freeza < Boo Saga Saiyans

Unless you have characters getting 2x stronger from training and you have a 1.1x gap as a stomp.
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Super Vegetto
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Well ofc that you shouldnt cuz i proved you its Kaioshin > guy that thinks 10x gravity will help him and you even admitted, right ?

Edited by Super Vegetto, Jun 13 2012, 01:24 AM.
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Selsiuss
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Super Vegetto
Jun 13 2012, 01:23 AM
Well ofc that you shouldnt cuz i proved you its Kaioshin > guy that thinks 10x gravity will help him and you even admitted, right ?

WHAT DID HE JUST SAY? We're not debating Kaioshin vs Pui Pui. Stick. To. The. Topic.
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Super Vegetto
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Selsiuss
Jun 13 2012, 01:49 AM
Super Vegetto
Jun 13 2012, 01:23 AM
Well ofc that you shouldnt cuz i proved you its Kaioshin > guy that thinks 10x gravity will help him and you even admitted, right ?

WHAT DID HE JUST SAY? We're not debating Kaioshin vs Pui Pui. Stick. To. The. Topic.
Read pal :

Vegeta never knowed 18 realy full power, and not even how strong is she in full power, so stop complaining like you know somethign that can be contradiced, and thing that you belive in Vegetas " i am strongest " words.

He even though that he is stronger than Goku and said infront of Goku that he is strongest, untile Goku went burst ssj2. Then he had in mind that Goku maybe surpassed him and he was right, which he proves with words " just like i expected ".




Like i already said everything here can be contradicted and i am done here, so stop replying to me because i dont change my opinion until AT says diffrent.
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Selsiuss
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Don't tell me to stop replying. I'll reply if i want to. And this isn't about Goku vs Vegeta suppressed or not. Why even bring that up?

And Vegeta does in fact know 18's full power because when Piccolo first merged with Kami he was equal to Android 17, who was stronger than 18. If Piccolo was suppressed at the tournament it would have been obvious to everyone there, since everyone has seen Piccolo's full power before. Even if Piccolo is exactly as strong as he was at the Cell Game, Vegeta and Goku's willingness to compete in the tournament without using Super Saiyan means that they are at least comfortable in possibly facing Piccolo in the ring. If the base Saiyans are only in the tens of millions, and Piccolo is in the hundred millions or even billions, they would immediately think that they had no chance. They would not be so content with facing a Super Namekian if the gap between them was so large.
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Master of Dragon Ball
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Daizenshuu says Yakkon > Supreme Kai.

Goku fought with an advantage over Yakkon.

Base Goku > Yakkon > Supreme Kai > Frieza

Case closed.
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SSJ JJ
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Well I would imagine Vegeta would go Super Saiyan if he had to in the tournament.. And in the World tournament saga I have Vegeta, Goku, and Gohan over 50 million in base, Piccolo much higher.. But no where near either Vegeta, Goku or Gohan in SSJ form
Tell me Kakorot, Is it slavery when you get what you want?
The Dark Prince returns
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