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Base Saiyans surpassing 100% Frieza ?
Topic Started: Jun 6 2012, 01:53 PM (14,197 Views)
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Super Vegetto
Jun 11 2012, 02:57 PM
Look pal. If you use fan made 10x multiply than it makes sence that base saiyans > Piccolo but if you use normal 50x for SSJ its doesnt make sence at all.
Actually the 10x multiplier comes from Toriyama himself.

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TORIYAMA ADDS!!!!!!! It became well known that SSJ was 50x stronger than the normal Goku but this became a mountain out of a molehill. As the author, he really intended him to just be 10x stronger than he previously was.
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Paikuan extreme
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wrong, i use what im given, this isnt a role playing game.

Past the frieza saga is the 10x multiplier.

Up to it is the 50x

then x2

then x4

period.

So thinking the saiyans SSJ power is over HALF of their power is another topic, and definitely not able to be proven.

Only in gt does that kind of multiplication go down due to the 2 to 4 x base rule in GT.
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Super Vegetto
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Teen GohanZ
Jun 11 2012, 03:02 PM
Super Vegetto
Jun 11 2012, 02:57 PM
Look pal. If you use fan made 10x multiply than it makes sence that base saiyans > Piccolo but if you use normal 50x for SSJ its doesnt make sence at all.
Actually the 10x multiplier comes from Toriyama himself.

Quote:
 
TORIYAMA ADDS!!!!!!! It became well known that SSJ was 50x stronger than the normal Goku but this became a mountain out of a molehill. As the author, he really intended him to just be 10x stronger than he previously was.
Yes before realizing that Kaio ken 20x gives more boost. No wonder it didnt work.


Ninja :
Its not past Frieza 10x multiply. Its called fan made.

Only Gt has Base Goku fighthing equal with Oob ( Kid boo ).

Only Dbz has Base Goku fighthing Oob who is no where near Kid boo and no Base Goku EoZ is not stronger than SSJ3 Goku Boo saga.

If GT never happend, many peoples would have clear mind and know that Base cant surpassed multiply like 400x. Thats why GT is illogical.
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Yes before realizing that Kaio ken 20x gives more boost. No wonder it didnt work.

Doesn't matter, point is that as far as we know Toriyama drew Super Saiyan with x10 in mind, he has never stated he had x50 in mind. Whether the x10 thing happened for the whole series or not is never really mentioned by Toriyama
If anything I'd bet he didn't even have a real multiplier, he just made characters whatever strength he needed them.
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when toriyama confirmed that he had the intentions on goku only bein 10 x stronger in his head, he said that he was superceded by his editor or whatever, and so he just let it ride.

The real fan made multiplier is just the ten times PAST the frieza saga, when in reality the only thing that actually matters,

is SSj, SSJ2, SSJ3

The saiyans actions and statements make sure people know that they have grown in strength PERIOD, not just in their SSj forms.

Otherwise their is no point in training in base.

Vegeta DID reach his limit, On earth, his machines kept breaking on him. Bulmas dad made him like 2 or 3.

So yeah. That was another comment you took out of context.
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Super Vegetto
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Thats the point. He gives up on 10x multiply because it didnt work and i am wondering why he had in plan this kind of multiply if Goku had atk that can push him even further. Maybe Kaio ken x SSJ ?


Ninja : The point is that they get new body ( ssj form ) and train in that body to get stronger. Same goes for SSJ2 and SSJ3. Goku mastered SSJ2 because he trained in that body which alows him to put more energy in it and after mastering he found way to transform.

Its illogical to say that SSJ can give bigger multiply after mastering and SSJ2,SSJ3 to be only boost. Every form must be mastered and than they can tranform.

The point stays how they got tranformations to achive greater power. First it was only boost, then it was training in that body to get even bigger boost.

They can train in base but they cant get much progress like training in ssj or other ssj forms. Thats why i dont see Base > Piccolo because we talk about millions and i dont see Base Vegeta closing gap with someone like Piccolo.
Edited by Super Vegetto, Jun 11 2012, 03:19 PM.
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Ninjajp247
Jun 11 2012, 08:14 AM
but why?

how can you see pocus as the opposite of what shin stated?

Not to mention it doesnt matter the conversation between piccolo and shin when it was clear that piccolo KNEW who shin was supposed to be, as he already knew who the lower kais were thnx to kamis relationship with kaiosama.

being a different order of being is the EXACT same thing shin also said about dabra, clearly stating he was a fighter from a dark dimension and had immense power.

of course the saiyans were suppressing their strength. They knew what was coming.

Shin couldnt have been suppressed he wanted gohan to fight with him and have goku and vegeta wolf pack pocus so he wouldnt have an advantage in the higher gravity.

Put simply? it doesnt matter How much weaker pocus is than the saiyans, he's stomping frieza. Period.

Shin and kibit alone stomp frieza.

kamiccolo stomps frieza and he doesnt HAVE a 10-50x power up.

So yeah, the death of pocus by vegeta so easily shows how far ahead they are of frieza.

and since the kais only had the last fight in their heads? they wanted them to prove that they were strong enough. Thats why they ganked gohan. kibit had his nose in the air thinking them weak. The cold part is that gohans the weakest and no one cared to step in to help him BUT shin, who was scared gohan would get killed by dabra.

apparently the fight with cell was a huge secret.

Im just saying, you dont actively promote jumping someone if you think you can beat them on your own ,and then put on a huge show to seem weak and helpless when he already brushed off frieza as being a threat as comparably ridiculous.

Pocus>Shin (alone)>>frieza. That simple.



Shin never states let's gang up on Pocus, he was surprised Vegeta was going out there alone but that doesn't necessarily mean lets fight him together. He says this with Yakon, not Pocus. Different order of beings doesn't mean stronger, where are statements and evidence proving Shin>Piccolo? Vegeta stated long ago you suppress to conserve energy, so why wouldn't Shin do the same? I see no evidence Pocus destroying Frieza like you guys say, bring out the hard evidence, I'll quickly change my mind IF I see hard evidence. As I said before, Vegeta states him self his base reached a wall and only broke it through the transformation, and when he finds out about Cell, he goes and says he has to ascend to to defeat Cell(just like Goku said when he woke up). So if your base improves, and since SSJ is just multiplying, why ascend to get stronger and not just train to improve your base, therefore improving your SSJ? Don't tell me because that would be slow lol it's still training.
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Super Vegetto
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Shin > Piccolo. Stated by AT in manga and daizenshuu books. No point for Piccolo to say something like that and ofc its never contradicted.


Btw i have things called limits, and its good to see someone who actualy think about that. Goku and Gohan reached base limit so they train in SSJ imo.

I dont see why would they get stronger SSJ form and not Base if SSJ forms are only multiplies, right ?
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Where is it stated Shin>Piccolo in the manga?

And yeah that's what I mean, through out the whole Cell saga it's all about ascending to the next SSJ level, all these statements from Vegeta and Goku are evidence they reached they're base and SSJ limits, so what's next? Ascend...
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Super Vegetto
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Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Context: after Piccolo and Kaioshin's match
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next”
Note: Piccolo’s line is a pretty standard way of saying that someone is stronger than you. You can find a lot of instances of people being described as in “a different dimension” throughout these quotes, like Tenshinhan talking about Super Saiyan Goku, or the narrator describing final form Freeza.

In Viz the line is made vaguer (“He is a different order of being”), which makes it sound like Piccolo could just be talking about how Kaioshin is a super-god, rather than about his strength per-say.

Anyway, though Piccolo's pretty much flat-out saying Kaioshin's way stronger than him, you could still argue that he's mistaken or lying...I guess.

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To me I see it as the same thing, the viz version and the online version. After that statement, the main focus was of Piccolo was if Shin was a Dai Kaio-sama, so I still don't see enough evidence to suggest Piccolo was weaker.
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Nothing says that Dai Kaio-sama > East Kaioshin in Boo saga or that he had big gap 5 mill years ago.

I have Kaioshin after 5 mill years > Dai Kaio-sama.
Edited by Super Vegetto, Jun 11 2012, 05:51 PM.
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I never claimed that, I said Piccolo thought Shin was Dai-Kaio-sama. And You must be talking about Dai-Kaioshin, well it is a fact he was stronger than Shin that time, but I don't have an answer if Shin surpassed him in those 5 million years, who knows what was the gap there.
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Look what are Daio-Kai characteristics. Fat, peaceful. jolly.

I dont see him beeing number 2 Kaioshin at all.

Btw East Kaioshin was the youngest. Who knows when he reached his peak in powers. Maybe after Kid boo is sealed, he started to train and track Majin boo until he found out that he is on earth.
Edited by Super Vegetto, Jun 11 2012, 06:08 PM.
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Weskur
Jun 11 2012, 05:17 PM
Ninjajp247
Jun 11 2012, 08:14 AM
but why?

how can you see pocus as the opposite of what shin stated?

Not to mention it doesnt matter the conversation between piccolo and shin when it was clear that piccolo KNEW who shin was supposed to be, as he already knew who the lower kais were thnx to kamis relationship with kaiosama.

being a different order of being is the EXACT same thing shin also said about dabra, clearly stating he was a fighter from a dark dimension and had immense power.

of course the saiyans were suppressing their strength. They knew what was coming.

Shin couldnt have been suppressed he wanted gohan to fight with him and have goku and vegeta wolf pack pocus so he wouldnt have an advantage in the higher gravity.

Put simply? it doesnt matter How much weaker pocus is than the saiyans, he's stomping frieza. Period.

Shin and kibit alone stomp frieza.

kamiccolo stomps frieza and he doesnt HAVE a 10-50x power up.

So yeah, the death of pocus by vegeta so easily shows how far ahead they are of frieza.

and since the kais only had the last fight in their heads? they wanted them to prove that they were strong enough. Thats why they ganked gohan. kibit had his nose in the air thinking them weak. The cold part is that gohans the weakest and no one cared to step in to help him BUT shin, who was scared gohan would get killed by dabra.

apparently the fight with cell was a huge secret.

Im just saying, you dont actively promote jumping someone if you think you can beat them on your own ,and then put on a huge show to seem weak and helpless when he already brushed off frieza as being a threat as comparably ridiculous.

Pocus>Shin (alone)>>frieza. That simple.



Shin never states let's gang up on Pocus, he was surprised Vegeta was going out there alone but that doesn't necessarily mean lets fight him together. He says this with Yakon, not Pocus. Different order of beings doesn't mean stronger, where are statements and evidence proving Shin>Piccolo? Vegeta stated long ago you suppress to conserve energy, so why wouldn't Shin do the same? I see no evidence Pocus destroying Frieza like you guys say, bring out the hard evidence, I'll quickly change my mind IF I see hard evidence. As I said before, Vegeta states him self his base reached a wall and only broke it through the transformation, and when he finds out about Cell, he goes and says he has to ascend to to defeat Cell(just like Goku said when he woke up). So if your base improves, and since SSJ is just multiplying, why ascend to get stronger and not just train to improve your base, therefore improving your SSJ? Don't tell me because that would be slow lol it's still training.
yeah man, he does, i got the scan right here.

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No other meaning for it.

Then he also said this.

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For a guy that can do frieza like Dabra did kibit he sure seems scared to even mess with babidi.

Pipi/pocus is standing right outside of the ship, so shin saw him too.

No question, this dude is deathly afraid...

after the death of pipi, he is clearly amazed...

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supreme kai has made it clear that he is in awe of the saiyans power. They havent even transformed yet.

Just saiyan.
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