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Base Saiyans surpassing 100% Frieza ?
Topic Started: Jun 6 2012, 01:53 PM (14,198 Views)
Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs
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Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Context: after Piccolo resigns from his and Kaioshin's match
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next.”
Note: Piccolo’s line is a pretty standard way of saying that someone is stronger than you. You can find a lot of instances of people being described as in “a different dimension” throughout these quotes, like Tenshinhan talking about Super Saiyan Goku, or the narrator describing final form Freeza. In Viz the line is made vaguer (“He is a different order of being”), which makes it sound like Piccolo could just be talking about how Kaioshin is a super-god, rather than about his strength per-say. Anyway, though Piccolo is pretty much flat-out saying Kaioshin is way stronger than him here, you could still argue that he's either mistaken or lying...I guess.

Piccolo < Kaioshin

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P4.6
Context: talking about facing Vegeta alone.
Pui-Pui: “Fuhihihihi…Lord Babidi told me to be careful since these guys [the Saiyans] have strong energy, but it looks like they’re just a bunch of morons…”
Note: Pui-Pui was told to be careful about the Saiyans, implying, that what Dabra and Babidi felt from them would be enough to make it a difficult fight for Pui-Pui, if he wasn't careful.

Pui-Pui is only worried about the Saiyans, not Kaioshin.

Piccolo < Kaioshin < Pui-Pui < Base Saiyans

And Piccolo and Kaioshin are both obviously stronger than Freeza

Freeza <<<<...<<< Piccolo < Kaioshin < Pui-Pui < Base Saiyans

Freeza <<<<<<...<<<<< Base Saiyans Boo Saga


Let's look at some training gaps too for Goku:

~ Less than one year of training in 10x gravity (Kaio training): increase from 416 to 8 000, roughly 20x increase in power
~ Erratic gravity training starting at 10x steadily going up to 100x for 6 days (Gravity training): increase from 8 000 to 90 000, 11.25x increase in power
~ One year in 10x gravity, extreme weather conditions, and very good training partner (RST-Training): >>>20x increase in power
~ Three straight years of training with a physical body and two very good training partners (Training For Androids): >11.25x increase
~ Seven straight years of training with no physical body to constrain stamina limits, presumably on planets with higher gravity like Kaio's planet has higher gravity (Other World Training): ???
Edited by Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs, Jun 10 2012, 11:28 PM.
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Paikuan extreme
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This kind of debate cant be contradicted?

yeah, scratching my head on this one.

and no, if kaioshin could read powers as well as he SHOULD have been able to, then Kibit wouldnt have head his head blown off.

No way would he beg the saiyans to gang up on pocus when babidi sent them to his world for the higher gravity.

At all. None of it would have happened, and Supreme kai would have put on a show. period.

Instead his aid dies and he is scared out of his mind to even enter babidis ship on his own.

Scans prove everything. because if you dont believe the narrative? the pics will tell the same story.
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Super Vegetto
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Pui-Pui thinks that 10% gravity will help him to beat someone like Vegeta, yet its already proved that for beeing in big gravity you nead only raw strenght. A mear 10% gravity is nothing - stated by Vegeta.

Now tell me how can this guy be stronger than Kaioshin and especialy Piccolo that we saw in action trough every saga ?


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Sasuke
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Base Saiyans probably at the Buu Saga are stronger than 100% Frieza no earlier though.
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Super Vegetto
Jun 10 2012, 11:26 PM
Pui-Pui thinks that 10% gravity will help him to beat someone like Vegeta, yet its already proved that for beeing in big gravity you nead only raw strenght. A mear 10% gravity is nothing - stated by Vegeta.

Now tell me how can this guy be stronger than Kaioshin and especialy Piccolo that we saw in action trough every saga ?


its nothing to a vegeta that got as strong as he did training in 500x gravity, thats why.

kaioshin didnt know babadi would send them to another world so pocus could fight at full strength.

and its 10x not 10%

King kais planet is 10x earths gravity, the only person that had an issue with gravity was trunks.

what on earth does that have to do with kaioshin looking like a super bad ***** next to kamiccolo?

Or kaioshin himself stating that killing frieza wasnt a supreme kai issue, as frieza could be destroyed with one blast?

The saiyans ask him if he was scared and he said no, he just thought it was a good idea, to get pocus while vegeta had him down.

clearly meaning that Pocus is not only above frieza, but would one shot him, like dabra did kibit.
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Duper Vegerot
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Base Saiyans surpass Freeza. That is all.
Edited by Duper Vegerot, Jun 11 2012, 04:57 AM.
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NavonWise
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The only way you can believe base Goku or base Vegeta can beat Frieza it's if you believe there is no limit to how strong you can get in DBZ. Now we have statements of Vegeta stating he had reached his limits but surpassed it only by attaining SSJ. So that's basically saying his base was maxed out therefore needed SSJ to break that wall. Piccolo states Shin, well..."Our dimensions…are too different…”. We got Viz say “He is a different order of being” and to me it's saying the same thing. I don't think that necessarily means Shin was stronger, Piccolo just thought Shin was the Grand Kai, he even states this, and Shin even says, he was the god of this planet, that's how he knew who I was. I'm reading my manga and I don't see Pocus saying, Babidi telling him to only be careful with the Saiyans. Pocus just says Babidi tells him to be careful and that's it. Pocus went in there thinking he was going to beat everyone, and you have to remember these guys can suppress they're ki, I doubt either of them showed they're true power, even Shin. So the way I see it, Pocus was weak.
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Paikuan extreme
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but why?

how can you see pocus as the opposite of what shin stated?

Not to mention it doesnt matter the conversation between piccolo and shin when it was clear that piccolo KNEW who shin was supposed to be, as he already knew who the lower kais were thnx to kamis relationship with kaiosama.

being a different order of being is the EXACT same thing shin also said about dabra, clearly stating he was a fighter from a dark dimension and had immense power.

of course the saiyans were suppressing their strength. They knew what was coming.

Shin couldnt have been suppressed he wanted gohan to fight with him and have goku and vegeta wolf pack pocus so he wouldnt have an advantage in the higher gravity.

Put simply? it doesnt matter How much weaker pocus is than the saiyans, he's stomping frieza. Period.

Shin and kibit alone stomp frieza.

kamiccolo stomps frieza and he doesnt HAVE a 10-50x power up.

So yeah, the death of pocus by vegeta so easily shows how far ahead they are of frieza.

and since the kais only had the last fight in their heads? they wanted them to prove that they were strong enough. Thats why they ganked gohan. kibit had his nose in the air thinking them weak. The cold part is that gohans the weakest and no one cared to step in to help him BUT shin, who was scared gohan would get killed by dabra.

apparently the fight with cell was a huge secret.

Im just saying, you dont actively promote jumping someone if you think you can beat them on your own ,and then put on a huge show to seem weak and helpless when he already brushed off frieza as being a threat as comparably ridiculous.

Pocus>Shin (alone)>>frieza. That simple.



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+ supersaqer
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Even Tien surpassed Freeza in the Cell Games. And if you don't have the humans gaining a lot, then Base Trunks after the RoSaT for the first time is Android 18 to Android 17 levels.
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Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs
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Vegeta accepted the rule to not go SSj at the tournament, and he wasn't worried about fighting Piccolo.

Freeza < Piccolo < Base Vegeta
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Super Vegetto
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I am just wondering how big number you guys get, but i will post something logical from my own opinion :

Gokus max base imo is : 60.000.000

Goku stated back on ship that he can withstand Kaio ken 10x without problems and also didnt have power level over 100.000

Goku : 3.000.000 used Kaio ken x20 and got 60.000.000 boost. His SSJ is : 150.000.000


I used his Kaio ken 20x multiply and replaced it with Gokus actual true base power level.

So Goku SSJ with 50x boost is : 3.000.000.000 + he isnt even in lets say FPSSJ which gives him even more boost.


Goku beeing rival to 50% Frieza and having 50x boost is what makes him way above Frieza, and way under Frieza in base.

After he achived SSJ, he didnt used Kaio ken anymore. Reason is because his body cant take 20x Kaio ken or more without putting stress. He found out that SSJ puts less stress so why use weaker technique that can even weakend him if he can becomes stronger in other.

It makes sence that he already knowed how he can use Kaio ken 10x wihout problems even with small power level, back on ship yet he should be able to use Kaio ken 20x without problems with power level over 3mill, right ?


Now this is going by my number and i have Base Goku equal to 50% Frieza. His SSJ form is 3.000.000.000 and thats only normal 50x multiply.




Btw if you guys have Android saga in billions, no wonder we dont agree.


Btw Boo saga : Kaioshin > Piccolo > Base Goku > Base Vegeta > Base Gohan > Kibito


Edited by Super Vegetto, Jun 11 2012, 01:15 PM.
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Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs
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I'm done arguing this. How do you have Piccolo > Base Saiyans when Vegeta was confident in winning the Budokai without going SSj?
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Super Vegetto
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I dont know if you read manga but i see that you clearly cant understand some things. Same goes for those who use 10x multiply. Its never stated that saiyans get stronger base and weak ssj multiply. Its just fan made thing and trust me, i tryed with that logic and it simply doesnt work. It follows gt logic because thats how gt works.

Vegeta is cocky though and Vegeta only thinks he can beat anybody when the enemy is suppressed or can't be sensed. Go figure how he got to point where him in base > Piccolo after 7 years.

If you have Base Vegeta ( Cell games ) > Piccolo than you are right, going by your logic but going by this logic where Piccolo > Base Vegeta (Cell games) you have Piccolo > Base Vegeta which is logical.

Btw this is one more proof after Frieza saga and Vegetas opinion:

Chapter: 336 (DBZ 142), P6.1-2
Context: after Piccolo says that only those with confidence in their abilities should come battle the androids
Vegeta: “Don’t make me laugh. Aren’t you’re the one with the least confidence?"
Piccolo: “What was that? You want to try me?”

Trust me. If Piccolo wasnt already above him on this point, i dont see hm saying this kind of thing because he is not guy that loves to say who is stronger.

Also it still stays that Piccolo before Kami > Base saiyans so its pretty ridiculous to think that Base Vegeta > Piccolo.


Edited by Super Vegetto, Jun 11 2012, 02:49 PM.
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Paikuan extreme
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NONE of this makes any sense, at all.

why are you using evidence from the android saga by the way? we are talking buu saga here.

many years afterwards.

and yeah, piccolo WAS stronger than the base saiyans in the android saga. SO?

How does that reflect on his getting left behind in the rosat when he was the first one to use it after becoming the original namek again?

I dont even think YOU know where you are going with this.
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Super Vegetto
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Look pal. If you use fan made 10x multiply than it makes sence that base saiyans > Piccolo but if you use normal 50x for SSJ its doesnt make sence at all.
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