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Posted this somewhere else. Figured I'd post it here.
biz
May 27 2012, 07:57 PM
Are these even related?
Even if Gohan was SSJ1 at Dabra, would that really make Dabra essentially as weak as Gohan?
I recall cyclical arguments that have Gohan being exhausted from fighting at SSJ's max, which makes sense enough, but Dabra being weak because he was even the slightest bit winded from fighting with Gohan; to be honest, Dabra wasn't even tired and Gohan had to used a Senzu Bean.
Also, the argument that Dabra was supposed to inflicted pain on Gohan, while a good point to make, isn't exactly enforced well; Yakon opted to eat Goku's power rather than attack him, and it would make sense for Dabra to converse energy and wear his opponent out rather than maxing out from the start; Cell did it against Goku. He would have had multiple opponents, and apparently, he could have heard that Gohan was the weaker of the 3 earthlings; Dabra heard Vegeta and Goku bicker and opted to switch strategy. I'd say that, if Gohan's and Dabra's fight continued, one of these would have happened:
Gohan would have lost.
If not Super Saiyan 2 already, Gohan would have transformed, and Dabra would have had to max.
Some one else would have stepped in.
To add, I'm assuming that Gohan is fighting over the 3000 kiri read for Dabra to have actually reevaluated his approach; and as soon as Goku and Vegeta were out of the picture, Dabra was just as confident as previous that he could end Gohan; he would not have had to worry about wearing down 3 fighters whom he didn't know how strong they actually were.
Finally, when Fat Boo hatched from his shell, his power was compared, by Gohan himself, to Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (at Cell); Gohan insisted that he could match Boo with his max strength; Dabra felt comfortable fighting someone with that power. Go back when Bobbiddi and Dabra are introduced; Bobbidi knew that Yamu and Spopo had been followed; Dabra knew exactly how many followed and who had the greatest potential for feeding Boo. Even when Boo was hatched, he and Gohan knew that something was in the cloud. Dabra senses ki.
Dabra senses ki, feels comfortable fighting someone that ranks among Gohan (At Cell) and Cell (Zenkai), and was overall dominant in his fight with Gohan; Dabra wonders whether potentially fighting 3 guys back-to-back with powers that are obviously over 3000 is good for his health; Dabra is compared to Cell by Goku, and Vegeta doesn't object to it. As far as Dabra's power is concerned, I don't think it matters whether Gohan was SSJ1 or SSJ2; if that debates purpose is to decide Dabra's power, then it doesn't do much for it.
Dabra is Cell (Zenkai), Gohan (At Cell) rank just from being confident in fighting Fat Boo, IMO. Also, I rarely see anyone analyze this comparison: Piccolo (At Cell Junior) < Piccolo (At Budokai) <? East Kaioshin < Dabra (Before Bobbidi) <? Dabra (Majin).
Although, East Kaioshin's power eventually gets questioned.
I suppose the only other thing I'd add is that if Gohan was only Super Saiyan, then Goku's 3000 kiri probably wouldn't have been a max read. Dabra thought 3000 kiri would have been easy enough to deal with, and Gohan seems a bit more resilient that he initially took him.
Yeah; I rambled. Thoughts?
[member]
May 28 2012, 07:03 PM
Dabra can't sense Ki without a device so I wouldn't put much stock into what he thinks about Boo's power. He didn't even know that Boo had powered up right in front of him until he actually saw his power in action.
I don't get your point about Dabra suppressing to conserve energy. Wouldn't he lose a lot more energy from holding back to Gohan's level and beating him after a very long battle, than to use his full power and just destroy him in 5 seconds?
Dabra having to resort to using Ki attacks, his sword, and his stone spit all highly suggest that he was indeed serious. At the 23rd TB Tenshinhan even states that whether or not someone uses an attack like the Kamehameha is an indicator of whether they're being serious or not...
biz
May 28 2012, 08:16 PM
Dabra can sense ki.
He sensed Kaioshin and the others arrive and implied that they had thought that they were hiding themselves by suppressing behind the mountains; he knew where they were hidden. unless he and Bobbidi just came from a device that sensed Yamu and Spopo arrive, but that's not mentioned or implied; also, Pocus would not have even needed to go in and get Bobbidi and Dabra if they already knew Yamu and Spopo arrived.
As mentioned, Dabra's looking up at the cloud along with Gohan and comes to the same conclusion pretty much.
And finally Dabra, doesn't have any time whatsoever to react to Boo powering; literally, Boo blows steam, Boo grins, Gohan gasps, and Dabra gets fingers in his eyes.
Also, I doubt Dabra had time to do much after Boo powered.
At Dabra conversing. The point wasn't to kill Gohan in 5 seconds; they wanted to cause damage; furthermore, I just think that Dabra was just anxious to fight; it was working; Gohan needed a senzu bean and Dabra was fresh; that'd be the point of conversing energy. Dabra would have had to fight Vegeta and Goku after. Cell did the same thing with Goku, and Cell was fresh at the end of it while Goku was damaged and exhausted.
At Budokai 23, ki attacks were a big deal. At Cell Games, Kamehameha was spammed to death.
And I'm not stating that Dabra wasn't serious. Cell was seriously fighting Goku; he just was also conversing energy. And Gohan would not have been the only source of energy. Goku and Vegeta were in the wait and Dabra's original intent was to eventually fight them all.
Is there an honest topic about whether Dabra can sense ki? #2lazy2search
[member]
May 29 2012, 10:22 AM
Very good point about Dabra/Babidi somehow picking up everyone's Ki when they were hiding. That seems to conflict with them needing a device to measure Son Goku's Ki against Yakon though, so it could go either way IMO. Toriyama didn't know what he was doing when he was writing that part of the story.
You're right about Dabra not having time to react. I was going by the anime where Dabra simply stood there and mocked him but after checking the manga again it seems I was wrong.
Whether or not attacks like the Kamehameha used are still a very reliable indicator on whether or not someone is being serious or not, even beyond the 23rd TB.
Dabra even resorted to spitting on Gohan to try to beat him, which would instantly end the fight and send no more of his energy to Boo. That doesn't sound like something I'd expect from someone who is playing around.
No, there haven't been any topics on Dabra's Ki sensing her yet.
biz
May 29 2012, 12:00 PM
At Goku vs Yakon, Goku, Yakon, and the others were on the ***** end of the universe relative to Earth, were Dabra and Bobbidi were. They would not have been able to sense energy when the others were so far away; kinda of like how Goku couldn't sense the Namekians until he had Kaio point him in the general direction.
At Dabra spitting, I can only surmise that, at this point, Dabra knew that he'd have some trouble fighting 3 guys consecutively, especially if they all were as strong as, or stronger than, his current opponent was. Chances are Dabra's plan changed from trying to wear Gohan down to just killing him and moving on the the next two opponents.
Spitting didn't work, and he probably figured that it wouldn't work anymore. Vegeta kind of gave Dabra the opportunity to save face. Dabra would not have been able to fight 3 Gohan's back to back straight up (with no spit).
I will state that Dabra is probably one of my favorite characters for the fact that his Funi voice actor was awesome.
And should we have a topic about Dabra and Bobbidi (and maybe even Kaioshin and Kibit) sensing ki? ( :S I probably won't make it though :lolsface: )
Lol when i saw Gohan is SSJ against Dabura i stoped reading.
Dabura toying with Gohan ? Didnt he whanted to use his sword to cut Gohan in half ?
Dabura is under SSJ2 Gohan. Dabura would give more energy to Majin boo with his ki blast if he and Gohan were even.
Also why would Dabura evade Gohans kamehameha ? Pretty sure Gohan only lost fighthing sence but still had enough power to kill Dabura. Only thing here is that he lost control of his power so his energy got drained, stated by Dabura.
Lol when i saw Gohan is SSJ against Dabura i stoped reading.
Dabura toying with Gohan ? Didnt he whanted to use his sword to cut Gohan in half ?
Dabura is under SSJ2 Gohan. Dabura would give more energy to Majin boo with his ki blast if he and Gohan were even.
Also why would Dabura evade Gohans kamehameha ? Pretty sure Gohan only lost fighthing sence but still had enough power to kill Dabura. Only thing here is that he lost control of his power so his energy got drained, stated by Dabura.
biz
biz
He is saying that even if Gohan was SSJ1 against Dabra, the power chain wouldn't be changed much. Biz believes Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabra.
For those that don't believe that Gohan was only Ssj1 against Dabura: Take a good look at Gohan's aura in the first panel:
Spoiler: click to toggle
That's Gohan getting angry when Spopovich thrashed Videl at the tournament. That is Ssj 1, and remember what the aura looks like. It looks jagged and chaotic, and drawn in almost one continuous line. Also take note that Gohan only has one bang and not two, so saying that Gohan always has two bangs in Ssj 1 and always one in Ssj2 is incorrect.
Now take a look at Gohan's Aura as a Ssj2:
Spoiler: click to toggle
The Aura is drawn with many individual lines pointing upward in addition to lightning surrounding Gohan.
Here's a good comparison between Ssj1 aura and Ssj2 aura in the same panel:
Spoiler: click to toggle
That's Ssj2 Goku standing opposite of Ssj1 Majin Vegeta, just before Vegeta also turns Ssj2. Notice the differences between the Auras.
Now take a good long gander at Gohan's Aura when facing Dabura:
Spoiler: click to toggle
Spoiler: click to toggle
It's obvious that Gohan is only Ssj1 in this fight. Toriyama wouldn't forget to put lightning or draw the aura as a Ssj2. Ssj2 is shown before and after the fight, so it's apparent that Toriyama intended Gohan to be a Ssj1 in this fight, and that's the double truth, Ruth.
I'm just saying, it's possible that Akira Toriyama did that as an artistic statement to show Gohan was weaker than Vegeta and Goku. Why would he not go SSjin 2? Unless you believe that he needed rage to go SSjin 2 (contradicted by Gohan going SSjin 2 at will for Kibit), then there's no logical reason he wouldn't have gone SSjin 2.
Tell me exactly what points to Gohan being a Ssj2? There is the fact that the world is at stake, and Gohan showed off Ssj2 only minutes before, but to me everything points to Gohan being Ssj1 due to what I see. I don't see Ssj2 aura there, so it's not Ssj2.
It's as simple as believing what you see. The Aura looks the same as Ssj1, therefore it is Ssj1. It doesn't matter if it makes more sense for him to be a Ssj2, if the evidence is not there, then he's only Ssj1 in that fight.
Tell me exactly what points to Gohan being a Ssj2? There is the fact that the world is at stake, and Gohan showed off Ssj2 only minutes before, but to me everything points to Gohan being Ssj1 due to what I see. I don't see Ssj2 aura there, so it's not Ssj2.
It's as simple as believing what you see. The Aura looks the same as Ssj1, therefore it is Ssj1. It doesn't matter if it makes more sense for him to be a Ssj2, if the evidence is not there, then he's only Ssj1 in that fight.
I have more evidence that Gohan is SSJ2 against Dabura, Majin boo shell and Z sword.
Here is one proof of SSJ2 Gohan against Boos shell > SSJ2 Gohan on world tournament :
Chapter: 471 (DBZ 277), P10.2-4 Kaioshin: “I want Gohan to use the Z Sword to defeat Majin Boo. Knowing him, he should definitely be able to use it.” Kibito: “A-are you serious, Lord Kaioshin…?!! There’s no way that some human would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…” Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”
Tell me exactly what points to Gohan being a Ssj2? There is the fact that the world is at stake, and Gohan showed off Ssj2 only minutes before, but to me everything points to Gohan being Ssj1 due to what I see. I don't see Ssj2 aura there, so it's not Ssj2.
It's as simple as believing what you see. The Aura looks the same as Ssj1, therefore it is Ssj1. It doesn't matter if it makes more sense for him to be a Ssj2, if the evidence is not there, then he's only Ssj1 in that fight.
I have more evidence that Gohan is SSJ2 against Dabura, Majin boo shell and Z sword.
Here is one proof of SSJ2 Gohan against Boos shell > SSJ2 Gohan on world tournament :
Chapter: 471 (DBZ 277), P10.2-4 Kaioshin: “I want Gohan to use the Z Sword to defeat Majin Boo. Knowing him, he should definitely be able to use it.” Kibito: “A-are you serious, Lord Kaioshin…?!! There’s no way that some human would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…” Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”
We must conclude that Gohan is only Ssj1 here, and don't say that Toriyama just forgot to draw a Ssj2 Aura on Gohan because Ssj2 Goku and Vegeta are seen fightingbefore and after Gohan blasts Buu's shell, streaking aura and lightning and all.
If Gohan used Ssj2 at all during the confrontation with Babidi, Dabura, and Buu, it was only when he blasted Buu's shell, the only time that I can see this happening.