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SSJ3 goku > Mystic Gohan, and this is why.....
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Topic Started: Jun 2 2012, 05:15 PM (4,992 Views)
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pakl123456
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Jun 2 2012, 06:08 PM
Post #31
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- GokuIsMyFriend
- Jun 2 2012, 05:15 PM
*All credit goes to kakashiUzamaki of youtube, for putting this together. If he doesnt make a neoseeker profile then I'll be the middle man*
Here are 7 Massive Points to show the validity of my interpretation. If these 7 points are not absolutely debunked then it should be clear that this interpretation holds. For all we know this may have been the interpretation the writer himself tried to express (and I believe he did have this in mind). Quick information before getting started:
Validation of the manga, anime, daizenshuu:
Everyone agrees the manga is valid because Toriyama worked on it himself. The anime is official too because Toriyama stated as such. Toriyama worked on the anime. It expanded his idea. The filler that you see, were Toriyama's idea. The daizenshuu is also valid and official like the anime. Toriyama approved of the daizenshuu, he worked on the daizenshuu, and says he wished he had it when making the series. It's legit.
Herms: "some things in the daizenshuu were supplied directly by Toriyama: interviews, the "What I'm Up To Nowadays" comics, extra character info, comments on vehicles, the DB cosmos map, the covers and other bits of artwork, etc. Some things are said to have been "supervised" by him, whatever that means, such as the DB Earth map. Finally, the entire book series were approved by him: they're official products, have his name on the cover, his introductions to the different volumes praise the staff's work and say he wished he had the books around when creating the series, etc."
One final point before we begin. I did not use any numbers in this. This is my way of showing respect to Toriyama who decided to get rid of power levels because he felt fans were obsessing over it too much when there is more to a fight than that. He removed it from his series so therefore I will not have it here. And now the 7 Points:
1) Fat Buu > Pre-Rosat Gotenks You keep saying Gotenks at ssj is powerful enough to beat fat buu which he never was. I don't have to post that part where gotenks got his ***** kicked. Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5 Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans Gotenks: "Hehhehheh...Aren't you underestimating me? Like this, I'm more than enough to defeat Majin Boo." Piccolo: "Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don't know anything about Majin Boo's fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there's still absolutely no way you'd be able to win!"
Also we never once have Piccolo tell Gotenks to go fight buu at ssj. Goku took a gamble with the kids and told this truth to Piccolo in secret Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3 Piccolo: "...Probably? Knowing you, why didn't you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy...?" Goku: "No...I'm no longer a human who's particularly even supposed to be here...I shouldn't be the one to do it. It'd be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another...After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? ...It's a nasty gamble, but...Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble..."
The daizenshuu states: "The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta "
So that means Gotenks was weaker than vegeta pre rosat and is only stronger than him post rosat. They don't say Goku. Which leads to base vegeta > base gotenks BUT ssj2 vegeta < ssj3 gotenks.
The anime: When kaioshin asks Goku if gotenks is stronger than him Goku goes eeeeeh I can do it too and then changes the topic.
2) Fat Buu = Super Buu We know fat buu can get stronger as he gets angrier. This is evident in multiple cases such as Vegeta making him angry. Steam erupts from his head. The greater the anger the greater the strength. So fat buu's maximum power is not felt.
Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P2.3 Narrator: "Due to his strong anger, the evil portion that Majin Boo had kept inside himself greatly swelled up and became another Majin Boo, who came flying out...In other words, he was divided into a pure evil Majin Boo and an innocent Majin Boo..."
Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4 Context: as the two Boos fight Narrator: "The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one..."
These 2 quotes show that when fat buu split into good and evil most of the fat buu's power went to the evil one. The evil one then ate the good one and regained his power. This results in his powers being returned to the state of fat buu. But now the evil side is dominant which leads to complete access to the powers fat buu could only achieve through rage (this is a restricted max of kid buu but more on that later).
Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6 Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo Piccolo: "...Have you noticed? ...This change in Majin Boo's ki...[ ] ...He's changed...All due to some idiotic Earthlings...He's become pure evil, and his body had become more suited toward battle...Th-this...this..." Kuririn: "Wha...What?...D-don't tell me you're saying this is bad!? ...It's al-alright! We've got the squirts' Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest...!" Dende: "..." Piccolo: "...That'd be nice, but..."
Piccolo states that this buu is evil and has a better built body. Piccolo says this buu is greater in all aspects which works fine with this interpreation because like I said super buu can access the complete power. Fat buu and super buu are comprised of the same elements and have the same restrictions inside of them when it comes to power. The difference is nature and body. Due to the evil nature the anger to access energy is not needed.
3) Buutenks > kid buu, Buutenks > Super Buu Buutenks states this is the birth of the strongest majin. Super buu never once stated it because it would be a lie if he did. Now we know buutenks is the strongest as of now. Old kai also tells Goku that he cannot win. Buutenks never specifies how much stronger than he is than kid buu though...
4) Inside Super Buu Goku was microscopic This one comes down to interpretation. I will show you why mine makes sense in the longer run since we all know there is more to the manga than this. At this point in time Goku and vegeta are inside buu. They never were in this predicament before. At the time they did not know they could return to normal size. Why would they? When they were turned into candy buu had to change them back himself. This also shows the miracle of the fusion between goku and vegeta. This is why Goku wanted fusion, even as candy they were able to fight.
Goku: "Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we're still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we'll definitely be done in...!"
Notice the "like this" portion. Some say fusion I say size.
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6 Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo Goku: "Alrii—iight! Come at me if you're gonna. I'll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can't open one?" Boo: "It's no use." Goku: "Don't underestimate me." *Goku blasts, not much happens* Goku: "..." Vegeta: "...It di-didn't have any effect..." Boo: "It stung a little here, that's all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas."
Here Goku does not say he can kill super buu from the inside (he can;t because he knows due to his size he cannot do it) but he thinks he can at least blow a hole. But super buu makes the statement to reaffirm that they are smaller than fleas and that is why they cannot blow a hole.
5) Kid buu > Super Buu When kid buu is being born:
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5 Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form Goku: "H-hey...Vegeta...His ki is increasing, ain't it...!?"
This power increase is coming all from kid buu. There is no one inside buu right now. The only one supplying the power is kid buu. There is no south kai there (south kai does not add power but more on that later). So this is all kid buu.
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6 Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form Goku: "..." Vegeta: "......Heh...Heheheh...Look! He's shrunk down quite a bit!" Goku: "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something." Context: 'He's shrunk' refers to Boo's body, not his ki.
Misconception is people think they laughed at his ki but it was his size they laughed at. The context written above is from the translator so no I did not add that. He is very reliable and stays neutral to power comparison, he only states what is there. If that is not enough evidence for you look at the birth of freeza's and cell's final form. There was always someone there to make fun of it.
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.4-6 Vegeta: "That Boo is stronger than I imagined...And so are you, Kakarot..." Another clear indication that Vegeta underestimated Kid Buu
The kai's weakened buu. This is also stated by the manga:
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7 Kaioshin: "In m...my era there were five Kaioshins...until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created...I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries...But the other four fell to Boo...First, two were killed...the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin....And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was...somehow absorbed by Boo..... " Elder Kaioshin: ...And he became that huge Boo from before? " Kaioshin: "...Yes...Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin....The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn't handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow became controllable.... " Elder Kaioshin: "...So he was finally complete...Which is to say...that this current...small Majin Boo...is the initial...mo...most troublesome one..." Kaioshin: "....Yes...the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption...has returned once again to the way it was...he has no self-control whatsoever...he has become evil itself..."
The absorptions weakened him. South kai being absorbed was not enough for buu to be controllable. Only after two absorptions was buu controllable. They say dai-kaioshin was pure of heart but guess what so was Gohan. Gohan was pure of heart and was also a kind soul (he could ride kintoun) but buu got a power increase from him. This is because the kai energy itself is harmful to buu as shown by more evidence here:
Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3 Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co. Dabra: "Seems they're trying to hide from us...In total...there are 7. We can't use Kaioshin and Kibito's energy...But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy..." Babidi: "Looks like it. It seems that we'll get more than enough energy from just those 3...Kuhihihi...To think that we'd be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly..."
They can't use their energy? Why? That's right because it harms buu and weakens him. Even the potara earrings, a kai artifact, stops working inside buu.
Kid buu also stopped the spirit bomb that had gohan and the worlds energy in it plus goku wanted gohan and gotenks to come help as in kid buu is much stronger than super buu this is why gohan and gotenks would both be needed.
The anime and manga also state that kid buu is the most dangerous/difficult. This is not just because he is unpredictable. People say kid buu blowing up the planet right away is why. Frieza, Cell, and Buutenks tried to blow up the planet too. Cell tried twice. Super Buu wiped out the earths population in an instant. Unpredictable is not why old kaioshin says kid buu is the most difficult. It's because kid buu > super buu and this is why it is more difficult for goku and vegeta to beat him.
6) Kid Buu > Goku > Gohan Lets get the daizenshuu out of the way: Daizenshuu states:
"In order to defeat Majin Buu, he had his dormant power drawn out by the Elder Kaioshin. Even without becoming a Super Saiyan, he has power surpassing Gotenks."
Stronger than gotenks but NOT Goku. And as seen from previous daizenshuu quote gotenks > vegeta but not Goku and we know from piccolo's statements that Gotenks = super buu.
Daizenshuu also states about Goku: "The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!"
One more: Just as Goku was about to kill kid buu the daizenshuu summary states: "Goku's feelings are only understood by his fellow strongest." This solidifies Goku and kid buu as the strongest that were there.
The anime: Goku when seeing Buucolo says you don't plan on beating me like that, and both in the anime and manga he says cheh I'm dissapointed. EVEN Gohan can beat you now. This gives Goku superiority.
Now on to the manga:
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2 Context: as Goku fights pure Boo Vegeta: "Kakarot...You're incredible...I am simply no match for that Majin Boo...You're the only one capable of fighting him..."
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6 Vegeta: "Don't hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might...!" Goku: "Ye...yeah...I've been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but...I haven't gotten the chance." Vegeta: "Eh?" Goku: "If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute." Vegeta: "One minute?!" Goku: "Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. .....Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this...!" Vegeta: "...S ...So you weren't thinking of me..."
Vegeta states only Goku can handle kid buu. Before someone says that is said only amongst them and it is said because Gohan is dead, guess what, Vegeta is dead too at that point. We later have Goku say he was messing around to much but both Goku and Vegeta agree that Goku BY HIMSELF at full power can defeat this buu (this buu is actually playing around).
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4 Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs Goku: "Oh, I know! You'll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight." Vegeta: "No."
This shows Goku does not believe Gohan alone could beat kid buu. We already know from the previous statement Goku believes by himself he can defeat kid buu (it doesn't matter about method) but does not believe Gohan alone could do it and instead 2 people are needed.
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P8.3-4 Goku: "Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it's no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings..." Vegeta: "I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then...! It won't be just little bit. We'll gather ki from them right up to their limits!"
Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1 Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama Goku: "Hey, even this probably isn't enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!"
I added these because some say Gohan did not give it his all. As these quotes show Goku took the maximum amount of energy from everyone. And after getting gohan and the others ki, it was not enough. We later see kid buu even block the massive spirit bomb. People say the reason kid buu was able to block it was because Goku had no stamina.
Goku had enough stamina to keep flying. Remember namek, and the spirit bomb that was thrown at freeza? Goku couldn't even stand there and frieza could not block it. It was a matter of power and not stamina. The stamina only comes into effect when the enemy is able to block the force of the genki dama and then begins to push it back. This is what happened to kid buu. He was pushing it back all while the genki dama was pushing it with its force.
Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P8.5-6 Context: people on Namek and in the afterlife watch Boo stall the Genki-Dama Elder Kaioshin: "Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that 'Genki-Dama' thing st-still doesn't have enough power..." Dende: "Th-that can't be...! We-we already used our ki..." Enma Daio: "Ha-hang in there, Son Goku...! Th-that Genki-Dama has power from us here in the afterlife in it too...!"
They're talking about the genki dama not being strong enough. Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.6-7 Context: after one of Goku's attacks damages Boo Goku: "That bastard...Even though he can quickly return to normal, he's playing around by purposefully drawing it out..." *Boo is clearly lollygagging*
This shows only up till genki dama kid buu has simply been playing around.
Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P11.2-3 Context: after Polunga restores Goku's stamina and he's about to finish Boo off with the Genki-Dama Goku: "...You're amazin'. You hung in there really well...All on your own...This time, be reborn as a good guy...I wanna fight you one-on-one...I'll be waiting...And I'll have gotten much, much better...See ya later!"
10 years later: Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5 Goku: "...But someone besides us and Boo might win."
Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P11.6-8 Goku: "He's the one...While I've been training on my own, I've been waiting all this time for that kid to enter the tournament...[ ] ]...10 years ago, when that outrageously bad Majin Boo died, I made a wish...That this time, he be reborn as a good guy, so we could fight one-on-one...Apparently old man Enma Daio heard me, and pulled some strings on my behalf..."
10 years later after nonstop training Goku still believes that kid buu may still win. This just goes to show that kid buu was close to the level of buutenks and was clearly stronger than Goku at the time of the kid buu arc.
7) Miscellaneous Information From daizenshuu 2, an interview with Toriyama:
"Interviewer: And then the Cell arc ended. Did you think that everyone felt you would put Gohan into the leading role?
Toriyama: I intended to put Gohan into the leading role. It didn't work out. I felt that compared to Goku, he was ultimately not suited for the part."
Gohan was made the hero and then made Goku the hero. This was not due to fans because at the time Gohan was leading in popularity. So that is debunked right away.
Quick look at Toriyama's style of writing: Piccolo saga: The hero/leading role was Goku. Goku was the strongest amongst the good guys. Saiyan Saga: The hero was Goku. Goku was the strongest amongst the good guys. Freeza Saga: The hero was Goku. Goku was the strongest amongst the good guys. Cell Saga: The hero was Gohan. Gohan was the strongest amongst the good guys. Buu Saga: The hero was Goku. ________ was the strongest amongst the good guys.
If we follow the pattern the answer to the underline portion would be Goku. This is just the style of Toriyama so to say that even though Goku is the hero does not make him strongest goes against Toriyama's style of writing.
Toriyama says the anime and daizenshuu is official. Some fans say "we should keep the anime and manga separate because Goku is obviously stronger in the anime" Why should we separate it for that reason? Did Toriyama not say anime was official? Does that not mean it counts? You only want it separate because it clearly derails your interpretation. Did you consider that maybe Toriyama noticed that his manga was vague and wanted to clarify things? The daizenshuu do that too but fans claim it shouldn't be counted either.
So people who have gohan > goku and super buu > goku can only rely on the manga even though Toriyama says the anime and daizenshuu are official too.
People who think Goku > Gohan and kid buu > Goku > Super Buu have the manga, the anime, and the daizenshuu supporting them. Yes that is all three sources supporting them. If you're a fan of dragonball this should not anger you. You should not be discounting something entirely just because you don't like it. You could always say you wished a person was stronger. I wish Piccolo was stronger but it just did not happen. It does not take away from his badassness, he is still awesome in my books but official statements are concrete.
- GokuIsMyFriend
- Jun 2 2012, 05:15 PM
The anime is official too because Toriyama stated as such. Toriyama worked on the anime. It expanded his idea. The filler that you see, were Toriyama's idea. The daizenshuu is also valid and official like the anime. Toriyama approved of the daizenshuu, he worked on the daizenshuu, and says he wished he had it when making the series. It's legit - Quote:
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This alone invalidates most of this post and is why this debate is pointless to be honest. The Manga is the ONLY CANON MATERIAL. Its as plain and simple as that. Unless you want to start calling all the video games, movies, GT and everything else DB related (Thats official) Canon. You need to understand there is a strong difference between Canon and Official. The only valid source one can use in a debate such as this is the Manga. All other sources are opinion based, and are not fact in the manga verse. Toryiama approving anything does not grant it canon status. He approved GT, but its not canon. Anime filler and Movies are approved, but not canon. The daiz arent even canon, because he only contributed minor info. Most of his contributions to the daiz (and GT) were artwork and misc info that wouldnt even remotely be useful here. Look at the herms quote you posted. The only place where its know he made some contributions that would effect anything here is character bios. The fact we dont know what he contributed, and the fact that the Daiz is fulllllll of errors and inconsistencies that go directly against the manga makes it a clear inaccurate source to pull info from. You know that guy herms? The one you pull all these quotes from? He believes Gohan >> Goku? So they guy you are quoting to prove your case doesnt even believe what you are saying. Now for a rather lengthy and conclusive debate on what is and isnt canon, check this thread out: http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t1590913-canon-not/ Take a look through the whole thread and you can see many proper definitions and such showing what is and isnt canon. Heres a bit of an easy to digest breakdown: (Canon is the original source material or a book or comic) Canon: Original Manga...The original which was actually done by the the creator is obviously the highest canon and anything that would contradict it as such would be dismissed as non-canon.
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Nimbo-Bimbo lord of all noobs
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Jun 2 2012, 06:50 PM
Post #32
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- GokuIsMyFriend
- Jun 2 2012, 05:15 PM
*All credit goes to kakashiUzamaki of youtube, for putting this together. If he doesnt make a neoseeker profile then I'll be the middle man* Here are 7 Massive Points to show the validity of my interpretation. If these 7 points are not absolutely debunked then it should be clear that this interpretation holds. For all we know this may have been the interpretation the writer himself tried to express (and I believe he did have this in mind). Quick information before getting started: Validation of the manga, anime, daizenshuu: Everyone agrees the manga is valid because Toriyama worked on it himself. The anime is official too because Toriyama stated as such. Toriyama worked on the anime. It expanded his idea. The filler that you see, were Toriyama's idea. The daizenshuu is also valid and official like the anime. Toriyama approved of the daizenshuu, he worked on the daizenshuu, and says he wished he had it when making the series. It's legit. Herms: "some things in the daizenshuu were supplied directly by Toriyama: interviews, the "What I'm Up To Nowadays" comics, extra character info, comments on vehicles, the DB cosmos map, the covers and other bits of artwork, etc. Some things are said to have been "supervised" by him, whatever that means, such as the DB Earth map. Finally, the entire book series were approved by him: they're official products, have his name on the cover, his introductions to the different volumes praise the staff's work and say he wished he had the books around when creating the series, etc." Welcome to the forum Goku. While I assure you that you are probably a great person, your post will be met with great hostility. And this is for a reason. You are assuming the anime is canon. You see, once upon a time, Akira Toriyama started writing a comic that he called "Dragon Ball". While you may know the anime version as Dragon Ball Z, it was originally just 'Dragon Ball' as the manga version. Some people, Toei and Funimation, thought it was good, and asked Toriyama if they could make it into an anime cartoon. Toriyama gave them the A-OK, and they made it. You see, the problem is, the anime is an adaption of the original manga; it's based on the manga, but it isn't the manga itself. If you regard both the anime and manga as canon, then you have canon contradicting itself. For example, in the anime, they make the fight between Freeza and SSjin Goku almost even at times. In the manga, it is clear that Goku always holds the obvious edge in the fight. If you regard both of them as canon, then that means you have two canon statements:
1.) SSjin Goku is obviously stronger than Freeza 2.) Freeza is almost on par with SSjin Goku
You see the problem in this? The anime is an official adaption of the manga, but the manga itself is the canon Dragon Ball. If you were to go by anime and daizenshuu, then you would receive statements that contradict the manga. The Daizenshuu and anime are both official adaptions of the Dragon Ball manga, that are based on it, but do not necessarily agree with it at all times.One final point before we begin. I did not use any numbers in this. This is my way of showing respect to Toriyama who decided to get rid of power levels because he felt fans were obsessing over it too much when there is more to a fight than that. He removed it from his series so therefore I will not have it here. Seems OK to me.And now the 7 Points: 1) Fat Buu > Pre-Rosat Gotenks You keep saying Gotenks at ssj is powerful enough to beat fat buu which he never was. I don't have to post that part where gotenks got his ***** kicked. Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5 Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans Gotenks: "Hehhehheh...Aren't you underestimating me? Like this, I'm more than enough to defeat Majin Boo." Piccolo: "Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don't know anything about Majin Boo's fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there's still absolutely no way you'd be able to win!" The problem is that this quote is referring to Base Gotenks. It's pretty obvious that Base Gotenks < Fat Boo, we know this already from the fight. This quote says nothing about SSjin Gotenks' power.Also we never once have Piccolo tell Gotenks to go fight buu at ssj. Goku took a gamble with the kids and told this truth to Piccolo in secret Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3 Piccolo: "...Probably? Knowing you, why didn't you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy...?" Goku: "No...I'm no longer a human who's particularly even supposed to be here...I shouldn't be the one to do it. It'd be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another...After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? ...It's a nasty gamble, but...Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble..." But you see, Goku says that seeing those two super gifted squirts, it made him want to risk letting them fight Fat Boo. Goku is dumb, but not that dumb. He knows Fat Boo could destroy the universe, he's not going to leave the fight in the hand of Gotenks if he thought Gotenks would lose.The daizenshuu states: "The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta " I've already explained it; the Daizenshuu is an adaption of an adaption of the manga, the manga being the only canon source. The Daizenshuu is based off the anime, the anime is based off the manga. Along the way, facts are going to get jumbled up so much that the Daizenshuu couldn't even be considered canon to Dragon Ball without making a crapload of contradictions.So that means Gotenks was weaker than vegeta pre rosat and is only stronger than him post rosat. They don't say Goku. Which leads to base vegeta > base gotenks BUT ssj2 vegeta < ssj3 gotenks. The anime: When kaioshin asks Goku if gotenks is stronger than him Goku goes eeeeeh I can do it too and then changes the topic. I've already explained pretty much that the anime is not canon. It is an official adaption of the canon manga.2) Fat Buu = Super Buu We know fat buu can get stronger as he gets angrier. This is evident in multiple cases such as Vegeta making him angry. Steam erupts from his head. The greater the anger the greater the strength. So fat buu's maximum power is not felt. Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P2.3 Narrator: "Due to his strong anger, the evil portion that Majin Boo had kept inside himself greatly swelled up and became another Majin Boo, who came flying out...In other words, he was divided into a pure evil Majin Boo and an innocent Majin Boo..." Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4 Context: as the two Boos fight Narrator: "The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one..." These 2 quotes show that when fat buu split into good and evil most of the fat buu's power went to the evil one. The evil one then ate the good one and regained his power. This results in his powers being returned to the state of fat buu. But now the evil side is dominant which leads to complete access to the powers fat buu could only achieve through rage (this is a restricted max of kid buu but more on that later). Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6 Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo Piccolo: "...Have you noticed? ...This change in Majin Boo's ki...[ ] ...He's changed...All due to some idiotic Earthlings...He's become pure evil, and his body had become more suited toward battle...Th-this...this..." Kuririn: "Wha...What?...D-don't tell me you're saying this is bad!? ...It's al-alright! We've got the squirts' Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest...!" Dende: "..." Piccolo: "...That'd be nice, but..." Piccolo states that this buu is evil and has a better built body. Piccolo says this buu is greater in all aspects which works fine with this interpreation because like I said super buu can access the complete power. Fat buu and super buu are comprised of the same elements and have the same restrictions inside of them when it comes to power. The difference is nature and body. Due to the evil nature the anger to access energy is not needed. That's bit wrong. And by a bit, I mean completely, utterly, and totally wrong. - Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292)
- P2.2-6
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…” Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!” Dende: “…” Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…”
Notice how Piccolo says that his ki has changed. - Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292)
- P3.1
Goku: “…This is Majin Boo, right? This ki…what is it?...”
Goku is shocked at Evil Boo's ki. - Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P6.1-3
- P7.1-3
Context: after Gotenks blasts Boo with the Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles and Piccolo stops him Gotenks: “Well, whatever. I already did quite a lot, after all. He should be pretty weakened.” *Boo comes out* Gotenks: “…He ain’t weakened…This really pisses me off!” Piccolo: “N-no…He is weakened…I don’t know about physically, but he’s weakened a little mentally…! Th-this is the first time…that he’s fought someone strong like you…He’s feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own…” Gotenks: “Dehhehheh! So in other words, Majin Boo’s freaked out, huh!? That’s right! My strength ain’t half-assed! I’m the best in the universe!” Piccolo: “Don’t let your guard down! He’ll be coming at you frantically now…!” Gotenks: “Dahhahhah, that’s no problem, no problem at all! That’s just what I was hoping for!” Piccolo basically states that SSjin 3 Gotenks is the first person at least on par with Evil Boo. How is this possible if SSjin 3 Goku > SSjin 3 Gotenks? Furthermore, Gotenks states he is the strongest in the universe, already having sensed Goku's power before. - Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312)
- P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!” Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!” Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!” Goku himself even states that he can't win against Evil Boo. And don't even say that Goku was trying not to hurt Vegeta's feelings by not going SSjin 3: - Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316)
- P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!” Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.” Vegeta: “Eh?” Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.” Vegeta: “One minute?!” Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!” Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”
Vegeta thinks that Goku isn't going all out because he's afraid of hurting Vegeta's feelings. However, Goku flat out states that he's not holding back for Vegeta's feelings, he's holding back because he needs more time to power up. Vegeta even acknowledges this by saying "...S ...So you weren't thinking of me..." And by Goku saying he couldn't beat Evil Boo but he could beat Fat Boo, and by acknowledging that he wasn't holding back for Vegeta's sake, we basically have uncontradicted canon statements that Fat Boo < SSjin 3 Goku < Evil Boo3) Buutenks > kid buu, Buutenks > Super Buu Buutenks states this is the birth of the strongest majin. Super buu never once stated it because it would be a lie if he did. Now we know buutenks is the strongest as of now. Old kai also tells Goku that he cannot win. Buutenks never specifies how much stronger than he is than kid buu though... Gotenks-Boo has the absorption of Gotenks, which makes him so cocky. Gohan-Boo is cocky as well, due to having absorbed Gohan. Evil Boo was pretty much the strongest Boo to date, since Goku could beat Fat Boo, he beat Pure Boo, but he stated that him and Vegeta would be killed against Evil Boo. Evil Boo was the strongest Boo to date, but it wasn't in his personality to brag about it.4) Inside Super Buu Goku was microscopic This one comes down to interpretation. I will show you why mine makes sense in the longer run since we all know there is more to the manga than this. At this point in time Goku and vegeta are inside buu. They never were in this predicament before. At the time they did not know they could return to normal size. Why would they? When they were turned into candy buu had to change them back himself. This also shows the miracle of the fusion between goku and vegeta. This is why Goku wanted fusion, even as candy they were able to fight. Goku: "Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we're still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we'll definitely be done in...!" Notice the "like this" portion. Some say fusion I say size. I'm sorry, but I want to slam my face against a brick wall repeatedly. I think my IQ dropped a bit. What suggests that even if Goku thought they would still be microscopic, their,ki would be lowered? Vegetto's ki wasn't lowered when he was turned into a gumball. And he still says that he is simply no match for Evil Boo's strength. Furthermore, after getting out of Boo, he never states anything like "Thank the Kais, we're back to normal size!". He never acknowledges it. He just fused and then unfused, so what makes you think he's referring to his size when Vegetto's ki wasn't lowered when he shrunk?Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6 Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo Goku: "Alrii—iight! Come at me if you're gonna. I'll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can't open one?" Boo: "It's no use." Goku: "Don't underestimate me." *Goku blasts, not much happens* Goku: "..." Vegeta: "...It di-didn't have any effect..." Boo: "It stung a little here, that's all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas." Here Goku does not say he can kill super buu from the inside (he can;t because he knows due to his size he cannot do it) but he thinks he can at least blow a hole. But super buu makes the statement to reaffirm that they are smaller than fleas and that is why they cannot blow a hole. Vegetto's ki did not shrink when he shrunk, so what makes you think Goku was weaker from being small?5) Kid buu > Super Buu When kid buu is being born: Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5 Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form Goku: "H-hey...Vegeta...His ki is increasing, ain't it...!?" This power increase is coming all from kid buu. There is no one inside buu right now. The only one supplying the power is kid buu. There is no south kai there (south kai does not add power but more on that later). So this is all kid buu. Did you miss that part in the context?
The one where it says
"As Evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form"
Majin Boo wasn't in his pure form, he was in his South Kaioshin form.Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6 Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form Goku: "..." Vegeta: "......Heh...Heheheh...Look! He's shrunk down quite a bit!" Goku: "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something." Context: 'He's shrunk' refers to Boo's body, not his ki. Misconception is people think they laughed at his ki but it was his size they laughed at. The context written above is from the translator so no I did not add that. He is very reliable and stays neutral to power comparison, he only states what is there. If that is not enough evidence for you look at the birth of freeza's and cell's final form. There was always someone there to make fun of it. The problem is that Vegeta and Goku can sense ki. They're not dumb.Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.4-6 Vegeta: "That Boo is stronger than I imagined...And so are you, Kakarot..." Another clear indication that Vegeta underestimated Kid Buu Pure Boo wasn't really using full power when he immediately formed. Chances are, Vegeta was referring to Pure Boo's true full power, which would be around SSjin 3 Goku's power, SSjin 3 Goku's power being unable to beat Evil Boo.The kai's weakened buu. This is also stated by the manga: Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7 Kaioshin: "In m...my era there were five Kaioshins...until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created...I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries...But the other four fell to Boo...First, two were killed...the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin....And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was...somehow absorbed by Boo..... " Elder Kaioshin: ...And he became that huge Boo from before? " Kaioshin: "...Yes...Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin....The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn't handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow became controllable.... " Elder Kaioshin: "...So he was finally complete...Which is to say...that this current...small Majin Boo...is the initial...mo...most troublesome one..." Kaioshin: "....Yes...the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)...has returned once again to the way it was...he has no self-control whatsoever...he has become evil itself..." Fun fact: the reason Herms put the 's' after absorption in parenthesis is because most Japanese nouns have no plural form; basically, the plural form is spelt the same as the singular form. So it's up to debate whether or not it was the absorption of both Kais, or just one Kai. What I think is that when Boo absorbs someone, he takes on their predominant trait. South Kaioshin's muscles and brute strength, Gotenks cockiness and power, Gohan's... cockiness and power (lol), and finally, Grand Kaioshin's jolliness and purity and innocence and fatness. Grand Kaioshin's traits were what weaken Boo. Sure, Gotenks and Gohan were probably pure of heart, by they weren't completely jolly, pure, innocent, and fat.The absorptions weakened him. South kai being absorbed was not enough for buu to be controllable. Only after two absorptions was buu controllable. They say dai-kaioshin was pure of heart but guess what so was Gohan. Gohan was pure of heart and was also a kind soul (he could ride kintoun) but buu got a power increase from him. This is because the kai energy itself is harmful to buu as shown by more evidence here: How could both of the absorptions of the Kais weakened Boo when South Kaioshin Boo was stated to be stronger than Evil Boo? Only Dai Kaioshin's absorption weakened Boo, because:
Dai Kaioshin was fat, meaning Fat Boo couldn't fight as well Dai Kaioshin was completely pure, jolly, and innocent, contradicting Pure Boo's persona and making it hard for him to use his full power. When Dai Kaioshin was removed from Evil Boo, he was stated to become stronger, but Boo wasn't stated to become stronger when he reverted to his pure form.Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3 Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co. Dabra: "Seems they're trying to hide from us...In total...there are 7. We can't use Kaioshin and Kibito's energy...But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy..." Babidi: "Looks like it. It seems that we'll get more than enough energy from just those 3...Kuhihihi...To think that we'd be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly..." They can't use their energy? Why? That's right because it harms buu and weakens him. Even the potara earrings, a kai artifact, stops working inside buu. Firstly, chances are that Babidi was just afraid that Boo would get weakened from them because he saw what happened with Dai Kaioshin's absorption. South Kaioshin Boo, however, was stronger than Pure Boo. Babidi didn't want to take the chance and risk Boo getting weaker again, even though South Kaioshin's absorption did in fact make Boo stronger. He probably just was taking the safe side, seeing that Dai Kaioshin weakened Boo.Kid buu also stopped the spirit bomb that had gohan and the worlds energy in it plus goku wanted gohan and gotenks to come help as in kid buu is much stronger than super buu this is why gohan and gotenks would both be needed. Firstly, there is a differentiation between Genki and Ki. Toriyama said that ki in Dragon Ball is made up from 3 parts in an interview: shouki (state of mind), genki (life energy), and yuuki (bravery). Genki just makes up one third of a person's ki. Furthermore, do you think Gohan gave all his power to the Genki Dama? If he did, he would be exhausted, and Goten and Trunks didn't fuse to give their power to the Genki Dama. So they didn't give their full genki, and genki in the first place just makes up one third of their total ki.The anime and manga also state that kid buu is the most dangerous/difficult. This is not just because he is unpredictable. People say kid buu blowing up the planet right away is why. Frieza, Cell, and Buutenks tried to blow up the planet too. Cell tried twice. Super Buu wiped out the earths population in an instant. Unpredictable is not why old kaioshin says kid buu is the most difficult. It's because kid buu > super buu and this is why it is more difficult for goku and vegeta to beat him. I've already established that anime is an official adaption of the manga, and is not canon.6) Kid Buu > Goku > Gohan Lets get the daizenshuu out of the way: Daizenshuu states: "In order to defeat Majin Buu, he had his dormant power drawn out by the Elder Kaioshin. Even without becoming a Super Saiyan, he has power surpassing Gotenks." Stronger than gotenks but NOT Goku. And as seen from previous daizenshuu quote gotenks > vegeta but not Goku and we know from piccolo's statements that Gotenks = super buu. Daizenshuu also states about Goku: "The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!" One more: Just as Goku was about to kill kid buu the daizenshuu summary states: "Goku's feelings are only understood by his fellow strongest." This solidifies Goku and kid buu as the strongest that were there. The anime: Goku when seeing Buucolo says you don't plan on beating me like that, and both in the anime and manga he says cheh I'm dissapointed. EVEN Gohan can beat you now. This gives Goku superiority. The Daizenshuu is an adaption of the anime which is an adaption of the manga. The anime is an adaption of the manga. They are official adaptions, but not canon, since they contradict the orginal manga.Now on to the manga: Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2 Context: as Goku fights pure Boo Vegeta: "Kakarot...You're incredible...I am simply no match for that Majin Boo...You're the only one capable of fighting him..." Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6 Vegeta: "Don't hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might...!" Goku: "Ye...yeah...I've been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but...I haven't gotten the chance." Vegeta: "Eh?" Goku: "If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute." Vegeta: "One minute?!" Goku: "Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. .....Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this...!" Vegeta: "...S ...So you weren't thinking of me..." Vegeta states only Goku can handle kid buu. Before someone says that is said only amongst them and it is said because Gohan is dead, guess what, Vegeta is dead too at that point. We later have Goku say he was messing around to much but both Goku and Vegeta agree that Goku BY HIMSELF at full power can defeat this buu (this buu is actually playing around). Gohan and Gotenks are dead, in some long line waiting to get their body and go to Other World. Goku was the only one at the time who could fight Pure Boo. Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4 Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs Goku: "Oh, I know! You'll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight." Vegeta: "No." This shows Goku does not believe Gohan alone could beat kid buu. We already know from the previous statement Goku believes by himself he can defeat kid buu (it doesn't matter about method) but does not believe Gohan alone could do it and instead 2 people are needed. Goku was just throwing out ideas by this point, and why would he say to resurrect Gohan and Gotenks if he could fight Pure Boo himself easily? And Vegeta said no because he didn't want them to get absorbed, after which nobody would be able to beat the new Boo.Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P8.3-4 Goku: "Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it's no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings..." Vegeta: "I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then...! It won't be just little bit. We'll gather ki from them right up to their limits!" Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1 Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama Goku: "Hey, even this probably isn't enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!" I added these because some say Gohan did not give it his all. As these quotes show Goku took the maximum amount of energy from everyone. And after getting gohan and the others ki, it was not enough. We later see kid buu even block the massive spirit bomb. People say the reason kid buu was able to block it was because Goku had no stamina. Goku says that 'those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then', referring to the humans and earthlings, not to Goten, Trunks, and Gohan. Furthermore, genki is but one third of ki, and if they really gave all of their genki, they would die. By gathering their genki 'up to their limits', that basically means, as much as the humans can give until they die. Again, there is a differentiation between genki and ki.Goku had enough stamina to keep flying. Remember namek, and the spirit bomb that was thrown at freeza? Goku couldn't even stand there and frieza could not block it. It was a matter of power and not stamina. The stamina only comes into effect when the enemy is able to block the force of the genki dama and then begins to push it back. This is what happened to kid buu. He was pushing it back all while the genki dama was pushing it with its force. Why do you think the Genki-Dama is different from any ki blast? Because it is comprised only of genki, not all three parts of ki. Pure Boo wasn't actually pushing back the combined ki of Gohan, Goten and Trunks, and other Z Fighters and humans; he was pushing a big mass of genki, and Gohan's genki would not be his full ki, and the genki he contributed would not be all his genki. Anyone who contributes all their genki would die, as they would give away their entire life force.Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P8.5-6 Context: people on Namek and in the afterlife watch Boo stall the Genki-Dama Elder Kaioshin: "Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that 'Genki-Dama' thing st-still doesn't have enough power..." Dende: "Th-that can't be...! We-we already used our ki..." Enma Daio: "Ha-hang in there, Son Goku...! Th-that Genki-Dama has power from us here in the afterlife in it too...!" They're talking about the genki dama not being strong enough. Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.6-7 Context: after one of Goku's attacks damages Boo Goku: "That bastard...Even though he can quickly return to normal, he's playing around by purposefully drawing it out..." *Boo is clearly lollygagging* This shows only up till genki dama kid buu has simply been playing around. Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P11.2-3 Context: after Polunga restores Goku's stamina and he's about to finish Boo off with the Genki-Dama Goku: "...You're amazin'. You hung in there really well...All on your own...This time, be reborn as a good guy...I wanna fight you one-on-one...I'll be waiting...And I'll have gotten much, much better...See ya later!" 10 years later: Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5 Goku: "...But someone besides us and Boo might win." Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P11.6-8 Goku: "He's the one...While I've been training on my own, I've been waiting all this time for that kid to enter the tournament...[ ] ]...10 years ago, when that outrageously bad Majin Boo died, I made a wish...That this time, he be reborn as a good guy, so we could fight one-on-one...Apparently old man Enma Daio heard me, and pulled some strings on my behalf..." 10 years later after nonstop training Goku still believes that kid buu may still win. This just goes to show that kid buu was close to the level of buutenks and was clearly stronger than Goku at the time of the kid buu arc. What? No. Vegeta and Goku both state that Goku in SSjin 3 at full power could defeat Pure Boo. Furthermore, it was an issue of stamina, not power. After Goku having his power restored by Porunga, he easily pushes the Genki Dama onto Pure Boo.7) Miscellaneous Information From daizenshuu 2, an interview with Toriyama: "Interviewer: And then the Cell arc ended. Did you think that everyone felt you would put Gohan into the leading role? Toriyama: I intended to put Gohan into the leading role. It didn't work out. I felt that compared to Goku, he was ultimately not suited for the part." Gohan was made the hero and then made Goku the hero. This was not due to fans because at the time Gohan was leading in popularity. So that is debunked right away. Quick look at Toriyama's style of writing: Piccolo saga: The hero/leading role was Goku. Goku was the strongest amongst the good guys. Saiyan Saga: The hero was Goku. Goku was the strongest amongst the good guys. Freeza Saga: The hero was Goku. Goku was the strongest amongst the good guys. Cell Saga: The hero was Gohan. Gohan was the strongest amongst the good guys. Buu Saga: The hero was Goku. ________ was the strongest amongst the good guys. If we follow the pattern the answer to the underline portion would be Goku. This is just the style of Toriyama so to say that even though Goku is the hero does not make him strongest goes against Toriyama's style of writing. You do know that Toriyama wanted to switch everything around for the Boo Saga, and try to get back to his gag roots? So it does't necessarily follow this outline.Toriyama says the anime and daizenshuu is official. Some fans say "we should keep the anime and manga separate because Goku is obviously stronger in the anime" Why should we separate it for that reason? Did Toriyama not say anime was official? Does that not mean it counts? You only want it separate because it clearly derails your interpretation. Did you consider that maybe Toriyama noticed that his manga was vague and wanted to clarify things? The daizenshuu do that too but fans claim it shouldn't be counted either. So people who have gohan > goku and super buu > goku can only rely on the manga even though Toriyama says the anime and daizenshuu are official too. People who think Goku > Gohan and kid buu > Goku > Super Buu have the manga, the anime, and the daizenshuu supporting them. Yes that is all three sources supporting them. If you're a fan of dragonball this should not anger you. You should not be discounting something entirely just because you don't like it. You could always say you wished a person was stronger. I wish Piccolo was stronger but it just did not happen. It does not take away from his badassness, he is still awesome in my books but official statements are concrete. I've already explained, anime and daizenshuu are official adaptions, not canon. Why? Because they contradict the manga. I already explained that if you counted them all as canon, you would have canon statements that contradict each other. There you go.
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+ Pyrus
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Jun 2 2012, 06:57 PM
Post #33
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8361524/1/?x=90
Now, please stop this madness.
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Spoiler: click to toggle
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Selsiuss
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Jun 2 2012, 07:35 PM
Post #34
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Why does the lower portion of your post have lines struck through all the sentences?
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GokuIsMyFriend
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Jun 2 2012, 07:38 PM
Post #35
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- Son Gohan
- Jun 2 2012, 06:50 PM
- GokuIsMyFriend
- Jun 2 2012, 05:15 PM
*All credit goes to kakashiUzamaki of youtube, for putting this together. If he doesnt make a neoseeker profile then I'll be the middle man* Here are 7 Massive Points to show the validity of my interpretation. If these 7 points are not absolutely debunked then it should be clear that this interpretation holds. For all we know this may have been the interpretation the writer himself tried to express (and I believe he did have this in mind). Quick information before getting started: Validation of the manga, anime, daizenshuu: Everyone agrees the manga is valid because Toriyama worked on it himself. The anime is official too because Toriyama stated as such. Toriyama worked on the anime. It expanded his idea. The filler that you see, were Toriyama's idea. The daizenshuu is also valid and official like the anime. Toriyama approved of the daizenshuu, he worked on the daizenshuu, and says he wished he had it when making the series. It's legit. Herms: "some things in the daizenshuu were supplied directly by Toriyama: interviews, the "What I'm Up To Nowadays" comics, extra character info, comments on vehicles, the DB cosmos map, the covers and other bits of artwork, etc. Some things are said to have been "supervised" by him, whatever that means, such as the DB Earth map. Finally, the entire book series were approved by him: they're official products, have his name on the cover, his introductions to the different volumes praise the staff's work and say he wished he had the books around when creating the series, etc." Welcome to the forum Goku. While I assure you that you are probably a great person, your post will be met with great hostility. And this is for a reason. You are assuming the anime is canon. You see, once upon a time, Akira Toriyama started writing a comic that he called "Dragon Ball". While you may know the anime version as Dragon Ball Z, it was originally just 'Dragon Ball' as the manga version. Some people, Toei and Funimation, thought it was good, and asked Toriyama if they could make it into an anime cartoon. Toriyama gave them the A-OK, and they made it. You see, the problem is, the anime is an adaption of the original manga; it's based on the manga, but it isn't the manga itself. If you regard both the anime and manga as canon, then you have canon contradicting itself. For example, in the anime, they make the fight between Freeza and SSjin Goku almost even at times. In the manga, it is clear that Goku always holds the obvious edge in the fight. If you regard both of them as canon, then that means you have two canon statements:
1.) SSjin Goku is obviously stronger than Freeza 2.) Freeza is almost on par with SSjin Goku
You see the problem in this? The anime is an official adaption of the manga, but the manga itself is the canon Dragon Ball. If you were to go by anime and daizenshuu, then you would receive statements that contradict the manga. The Daizenshuu and anime are both official adaptions of the Dragon Ball manga, that are based on it, but do not necessarily agree with it at all times.One final point before we begin. I did not use any numbers in this. This is my way of showing respect to Toriyama who decided to get rid of power levels because he felt fans were obsessing over it too much when there is more to a fight than that. He removed it from his series so therefore I will not have it here. Seems OK to me.And now the 7 Points: 1) Fat Buu > Pre-Rosat Gotenks You keep saying Gotenks at ssj is powerful enough to beat fat buu which he never was. I don't have to post that part where gotenks got his ***** kicked. Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5 Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans Gotenks: "Hehhehheh...Aren't you underestimating me? Like this, I'm more than enough to defeat Majin Boo." Piccolo: "Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don't know anything about Majin Boo's fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there's still absolutely no way you'd be able to win!" The problem is that this quote is referring to Base Gotenks. It's pretty obvious that Base Gotenks < Fat Boo, we know this already from the fight. This quote says nothing about SSjin Gotenks' power.Also we never once have Piccolo tell Gotenks to go fight buu at ssj. Goku took a gamble with the kids and told this truth to Piccolo in secret Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3 Piccolo: "...Probably? Knowing you, why didn't you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy...?" Goku: "No...I'm no longer a human who's particularly even supposed to be here...I shouldn't be the one to do it. It'd be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another...After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? ...It's a nasty gamble, but...Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble..." But you see, Goku says that seeing those two super gifted squirts, it made him want to risk letting them fight Fat Boo. Goku is dumb, but not that dumb. He knows Fat Boo could destroy the universe, he's not going to leave the fight in the hand of Gotenks if he thought Gotenks would lose.The daizenshuu states: "The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta " I've already explained it; the Daizenshuu is an adaption of an adaption of the manga, the manga being the only canon source. The Daizenshuu is based off the anime, the anime is based off the manga. Along the way, facts are going to get jumbled up so much that the Daizenshuu couldn't even be considered canon to Dragon Ball without making a crapload of contradictions.So that means Gotenks was weaker than vegeta pre rosat and is only stronger than him post rosat. They don't say Goku. Which leads to base vegeta > base gotenks BUT ssj2 vegeta < ssj3 gotenks. The anime: When kaioshin asks Goku if gotenks is stronger than him Goku goes eeeeeh I can do it too and then changes the topic. I've already explained pretty much that the anime is not canon. It is an official adaption of the canon manga.2) Fat Buu = Super Buu We know fat buu can get stronger as he gets angrier. This is evident in multiple cases such as Vegeta making him angry. Steam erupts from his head. The greater the anger the greater the strength. So fat buu's maximum power is not felt. Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P2.3 Narrator: "Due to his strong anger, the evil portion that Majin Boo had kept inside himself greatly swelled up and became another Majin Boo, who came flying out...In other words, he was divided into a pure evil Majin Boo and an innocent Majin Boo..." Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4 Context: as the two Boos fight Narrator: "The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one..." These 2 quotes show that when fat buu split into good and evil most of the fat buu's power went to the evil one. The evil one then ate the good one and regained his power. This results in his powers being returned to the state of fat buu. But now the evil side is dominant which leads to complete access to the powers fat buu could only achieve through rage (this is a restricted max of kid buu but more on that later). Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6 Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo Piccolo: "...Have you noticed? ...This change in Majin Boo's ki...[ ] ...He's changed...All due to some idiotic Earthlings...He's become pure evil, and his body had become more suited toward battle...Th-this...this..." Kuririn: "Wha...What?...D-don't tell me you're saying this is bad!? ...It's al-alright! We've got the squirts' Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest...!" Dende: "..." Piccolo: "...That'd be nice, but..." Piccolo states that this buu is evil and has a better built body. Piccolo says this buu is greater in all aspects which works fine with this interpreation because like I said super buu can access the complete power. Fat buu and super buu are comprised of the same elements and have the same restrictions inside of them when it comes to power. The difference is nature and body. Due to the evil nature the anger to access energy is not needed. That's bit wrong. And by a bit, I mean completely, utterly, and totally wrong. - Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292)
- P2.2-6
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…” Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!” Dende: “…” Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…”
Notice how Piccolo says that his ki has changed. - Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292)
- P3.1
Goku: “…This is Majin Boo, right? This ki…what is it?...”
Goku is shocked at Evil Boo's ki. - Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P6.1-3
- P7.1-3
Context: after Gotenks blasts Boo with the Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles and Piccolo stops him Gotenks: “Well, whatever. I already did quite a lot, after all. He should be pretty weakened.” *Boo comes out* Gotenks: “…He ain’t weakened…This really pisses me off!” Piccolo: “N-no…He is weakened…I don’t know about physically, but he’s weakened a little mentally…! Th-this is the first time…that he’s fought someone strong like you…He’s feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own…” Gotenks: “Dehhehheh! So in other words, Majin Boo’s freaked out, huh!? That’s right! My strength ain’t half-assed! I’m the best in the universe!” Piccolo: “Don’t let your guard down! He’ll be coming at you frantically now…!” Gotenks: “Dahhahhah, that’s no problem, no problem at all! That’s just what I was hoping for!” Piccolo basically states that SSjin 3 Gotenks is the first person at least on par with Evil Boo. How is this possible if SSjin 3 Goku > SSjin 3 Gotenks? Furthermore, Gotenks states he is the strongest in the universe, already having sensed Goku's power before. - Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312)
- P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!” Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!” Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!” Goku himself even states that he can't win against Evil Boo. And don't even say that Goku was trying not to hurt Vegeta's feelings by not going SSjin 3: - Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316)
- P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!” Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.” Vegeta: “Eh?” Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.” Vegeta: “One minute?!” Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!” Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”
Vegeta thinks that Goku isn't going all out because he's afraid of hurting Vegeta's feelings. However, Goku flat out states that he's not holding back for Vegeta's feelings, he's holding back because he needs more time to power up. Vegeta even acknowledges this by saying "...S ...So you weren't thinking of me..." And by Goku saying he couldn't beat Evil Boo but he could beat Fat Boo, and by acknowledging that he wasn't holding back for Vegeta's sake, we basically have uncontradicted canon statements that Fat Boo < SSjin 3 Goku < Evil Boo3) Buutenks > kid buu, Buutenks > Super Buu Buutenks states this is the birth of the strongest majin. Super buu never once stated it because it would be a lie if he did. Now we know buutenks is the strongest as of now. Old kai also tells Goku that he cannot win. Buutenks never specifies how much stronger than he is than kid buu though... Gotenks-Boo has the absorption of Gotenks, which makes him so cocky. Gohan-Boo is cocky as well, due to having absorbed Gohan. Evil Boo was pretty much the strongest Boo to date, since Goku could beat Fat Boo, he beat Pure Boo, but he stated that him and Vegeta would be killed against Evil Boo. Evil Boo was the strongest Boo to date, but it wasn't in his personality to brag about it.4) Inside Super Buu Goku was microscopic This one comes down to interpretation. I will show you why mine makes sense in the longer run since we all know there is more to the manga than this. At this point in time Goku and vegeta are inside buu. They never were in this predicament before. At the time they did not know they could return to normal size. Why would they? When they were turned into candy buu had to change them back himself. This also shows the miracle of the fusion between goku and vegeta. This is why Goku wanted fusion, even as candy they were able to fight. Goku: "Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we're still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we'll definitely be done in...!" Notice the "like this" portion. Some say fusion I say size. I'm sorry, but I want to slam my face against a brick wall repeatedly. I think my IQ dropped a bit. What suggests that even if Goku thought they would still be microscopic, their,ki would be lowered? Vegetto's ki wasn't lowered when he was turned into a gumball. And he still says that he is simply no match for Evil Boo's strength. Furthermore, after getting out of Boo, he never states anything like "Thank the Kais, we're back to normal size!". He never acknowledges it. He just fused and then unfused, so what makes you think he's referring to his size when Vegetto's ki wasn't lowered when he shrunk?Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6 Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo Goku: "Alrii—iight! Come at me if you're gonna. I'll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can't open one?" Boo: "It's no use." Goku: "Don't underestimate me." *Goku blasts, not much happens* Goku: "..." Vegeta: "...It di-didn't have any effect..." Boo: "It stung a little here, that's all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas." Here Goku does not say he can kill super buu from the inside (he can;t because he knows due to his size he cannot do it) but he thinks he can at least blow a hole. But super buu makes the statement to reaffirm that they are smaller than fleas and that is why they cannot blow a hole. Vegetto's ki did not shrink when he shrunk, so what makes you think Goku was weaker from being small?5) Kid buu > Super Buu When kid buu is being born: Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5 Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form Goku: "H-hey...Vegeta...His ki is increasing, ain't it...!?" This power increase is coming all from kid buu. There is no one inside buu right now. The only one supplying the power is kid buu. There is no south kai there (south kai does not add power but more on that later). So this is all kid buu. Did you miss that part in the context?
The one where it says
"As Evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form"
Majin Boo wasn't in his pure form, he was in his South Kaioshin form.Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6 Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form Goku: "..." Vegeta: "......Heh...Heheheh...Look! He's shrunk down quite a bit!" Goku: "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something." Context: 'He's shrunk' refers to Boo's body, not his ki. Misconception is people think they laughed at his ki but it was his size they laughed at. The context written above is from the translator so no I did not add that. He is very reliable and stays neutral to power comparison, he only states what is there. If that is not enough evidence for you look at the birth of freeza's and cell's final form. There was always someone there to make fun of it. The problem is that Vegeta and Goku can sense ki. They're not dumb.Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.4-6 Vegeta: "That Boo is stronger than I imagined...And so are you, Kakarot..." Another clear indication that Vegeta underestimated Kid Buu Pure Boo wasn't really using full power when he immediately formed. Chances are, Vegeta was referring to Pure Boo's true full power, which would be around SSjin 3 Goku's power, SSjin 3 Goku's power being unable to beat Evil Boo.The kai's weakened buu. This is also stated by the manga: Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7 Kaioshin: "In m...my era there were five Kaioshins...until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created...I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries...But the other four fell to Boo...First, two were killed...the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin....And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was...somehow absorbed by Boo..... " Elder Kaioshin: ...And he became that huge Boo from before? " Kaioshin: "...Yes...Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin....The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn't handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow became controllable.... " Elder Kaioshin: "...So he was finally complete...Which is to say...that this current...small Majin Boo...is the initial...mo...most troublesome one..." Kaioshin: "....Yes...the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)...has returned once again to the way it was...he has no self-control whatsoever...he has become evil itself..." Fun fact: the reason Herms put the 's' after absorption in parenthesis is because most Japanese nouns have no plural form; basically, the plural form is spelt the same as the singular form. So it's up to debate whether or not it was the absorption of both Kais, or just one Kai. What I think is that when Boo absorbs someone, he takes on their predominant trait. South Kaioshin's muscles and brute strength, Gotenks cockiness and power, Gohan's... cockiness and power (lol), and finally, Grand Kaioshin's jolliness and purity and innocence and fatness. Grand Kaioshin's traits were what weaken Boo. Sure, Gotenks and Gohan were probably pure of heart, by they weren't completely jolly, pure, innocent, and fat.The absorptions weakened him. South kai being absorbed was not enough for buu to be controllable. Only after two absorptions was buu controllable. They say dai-kaioshin was pure of heart but guess what so was Gohan. Gohan was pure of heart and was also a kind soul (he could ride kintoun) but buu got a power increase from him. This is because the kai energy itself is harmful to buu as shown by more evidence here: How could both of the absorptions of the Kais weakened Boo when South Kaioshin Boo was stated to be stronger than Evil Boo? Only Dai Kaioshin's absorption weakened Boo, because:
Dai Kaioshin was fat, meaning Fat Boo couldn't fight as well Dai Kaioshin was completely pure, jolly, and innocent, contradicting Pure Boo's persona and making it hard for him to use his full power. When Dai Kaioshin was removed from Evil Boo, he was stated to become stronger, but Boo wasn't stated to become stronger when he reverted to his pure form.Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3 Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co. Dabra: "Seems they're trying to hide from us...In total...there are 7. We can't use Kaioshin and Kibito's energy...But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy..." Babidi: "Looks like it. It seems that we'll get more than enough energy from just those 3...Kuhihihi...To think that we'd be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly..." They can't use their energy? Why? That's right because it harms buu and weakens him. Even the potara earrings, a kai artifact, stops working inside buu. Firstly, chances are that Babidi was just afraid that Boo would get weakened from them because he saw what happened with Dai Kaioshin's absorption. South Kaioshin Boo, however, was stronger than Pure Boo. Babidi didn't want to take the chance and risk Boo getting weaker again, even though South Kaioshin's absorption did in fact make Boo stronger. He probably just was taking the safe side, seeing that Dai Kaioshin weakened Boo.Kid buu also stopped the spirit bomb that had gohan and the worlds energy in it plus goku wanted gohan and gotenks to come help as in kid buu is much stronger than super buu this is why gohan and gotenks would both be needed. Firstly, there is a differentiation between Genki and Ki. Toriyama said that ki in Dragon Ball is made up from 3 parts in an interview: shouki (state of mind), genki (life energy), and yuuki (bravery). Genki just makes up one third of a person's ki. Furthermore, do you think Gohan gave all his power to the Genki Dama? If he did, he would be exhausted, and Goten and Trunks didn't fuse to give their power to the Genki Dama. So they didn't give their full genki, and genki in the first place just makes up one third of their total ki.The anime and manga also state that kid buu is the most dangerous/difficult. This is not just because he is unpredictable. People say kid buu blowing up the planet right away is why. Frieza, Cell, and Buutenks tried to blow up the planet too. Cell tried twice. Super Buu wiped out the earths population in an instant. Unpredictable is not why old kaioshin says kid buu is the most difficult. It's because kid buu > super buu and this is why it is more difficult for goku and vegeta to beat him. I've already established that anime is an official adaption of the manga, and is not canon.6) Kid Buu > Goku > Gohan Lets get the daizenshuu out of the way: Daizenshuu states: "In order to defeat Majin Buu, he had his dormant power drawn out by the Elder Kaioshin. Even without becoming a Super Saiyan, he has power surpassing Gotenks." Stronger than gotenks but NOT Goku. And as seen from previous daizenshuu quote gotenks > vegeta but not Goku and we know from piccolo's statements that Gotenks = super buu. Daizenshuu also states about Goku: "The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!" One more: Just as Goku was about to kill kid buu the daizenshuu summary states: "Goku's feelings are only understood by his fellow strongest." This solidifies Goku and kid buu as the strongest that were there. The anime: Goku when seeing Buucolo says you don't plan on beating me like that, and both in the anime and manga he says cheh I'm dissapointed. EVEN Gohan can beat you now. This gives Goku superiority. The Daizenshuu is an adaption of the anime which is an adaption of the manga. The anime is an adaption of the manga. They are official adaptions, but not canon, since they contradict the orginal manga.Now on to the manga: Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2 Context: as Goku fights pure Boo Vegeta: "Kakarot...You're incredible...I am simply no match for that Majin Boo...You're the only one capable of fighting him..." Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6 Vegeta: "Don't hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might...!" Goku: "Ye...yeah...I've been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but...I haven't gotten the chance." Vegeta: "Eh?" Goku: "If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute." Vegeta: "One minute?!" Goku: "Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. .....Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this...!" Vegeta: "...S ...So you weren't thinking of me..." Vegeta states only Goku can handle kid buu. Before someone says that is said only amongst them and it is said because Gohan is dead, guess what, Vegeta is dead too at that point. We later have Goku say he was messing around to much but both Goku and Vegeta agree that Goku BY HIMSELF at full power can defeat this buu (this buu is actually playing around). Gohan and Gotenks are dead, in some long line waiting to get their body and go to Other World. Goku was the only one at the time who could fight Pure Boo. Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4 Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs Goku: "Oh, I know! You'll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight." Vegeta: "No." This shows Goku does not believe Gohan alone could beat kid buu. We already know from the previous statement Goku believes by himself he can defeat kid buu (it doesn't matter about method) but does not believe Gohan alone could do it and instead 2 people are needed. Goku was just throwing out ideas by this point, and why would he say to resurrect Gohan and Gotenks if he could fight Pure Boo himself easily? And Vegeta said no because he didn't want them to get absorbed, after which nobody would be able to beat the new Boo.Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P8.3-4 Goku: "Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it's no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings..." Vegeta: "I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then...! It won't be just little bit. We'll gather ki from them right up to their limits!" Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1 Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama Goku: "Hey, even this probably isn't enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!" I added these because some say Gohan did not give it his all. As these quotes show Goku took the maximum amount of energy from everyone. And after getting gohan and the others ki, it was not enough. We later see kid buu even block the massive spirit bomb. People say the reason kid buu was able to block it was because Goku had no stamina. Goku says that 'those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then', referring to the humans and earthlings, not to Goten, Trunks, and Gohan. Furthermore, genki is but one third of ki, and if they really gave all of their genki, they would die. By gathering their genki 'up to their limits', that basically means, as much as the humans can give until they die. Again, there is a differentiation between genki and ki.Goku had enough stamina to keep flying. Remember namek, and the spirit bomb that was thrown at freeza? Goku couldn't even stand there and frieza could not block it. It was a matter of power and not stamina. The stamina only comes into effect when the enemy is able to block the force of the genki dama and then begins to push it back. This is what happened to kid buu. He was pushing it back all while the genki dama was pushing it with its force. Why do you think the Genki-Dama is different from any ki blast? Because it is comprised only of genki, not all three parts of ki. Pure Boo wasn't actually pushing back the combined ki of Gohan, Goten and Trunks, and other Z Fighters and humans; he was pushing a big mass of genki, and Gohan's genki would not be his full ki, and the genki he contributed would not be all his genki. Anyone who contributes all their genki would die, as they would give away their entire life force.Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P8.5-6 Context: people on Namek and in the afterlife watch Boo stall the Genki-Dama Elder Kaioshin: "Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that 'Genki-Dama' thing st-still doesn't have enough power..." Dende: "Th-that can't be...! We-we already used our ki..." Enma Daio: "Ha-hang in there, Son Goku...! Th-that Genki-Dama has power from us here in the afterlife in it too...!" They're talking about the genki dama not being strong enough. Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.6-7 Context: after one of Goku's attacks damages Boo Goku: "That bastard...Even though he can quickly return to normal, he's playing around by purposefully drawing it out..." *Boo is clearly lollygagging* This shows only up till genki dama kid buu has simply been playing around. Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P11.2-3 Context: after Polunga restores Goku's stamina and he's about to finish Boo off with the Genki-Dama Goku: "...You're amazin'. You hung in there really well...All on your own...This time, be reborn as a good guy...I wanna fight you one-on-one...I'll be waiting...And I'll have gotten much, much better...See ya later!" 10 years later: Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5 Goku: "...But someone besides us and Boo might win." Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P11.6-8 Goku: "He's the one...While I've been training on my own, I've been waiting all this time for that kid to enter the tournament...[ ] ]...10 years ago, when that outrageously bad Majin Boo died, I made a wish...That this time, he be reborn as a good guy, so we could fight one-on-one...Apparently old man Enma Daio heard me, and pulled some strings on my behalf..." 10 years later after nonstop training Goku still believes that kid buu may still win. This just goes to show that kid buu was close to the level of buutenks and was clearly stronger than Goku at the time of the kid buu arc. What? No. Vegeta and Goku both state that Goku in SSjin 3 at full power could defeat Pure Boo. Furthermore, it was an issue of stamina, not power. After Goku having his power restored by Porunga, he easily pushes the Genki Dama onto Pure Boo.7) Miscellaneous Information From daizenshuu 2, an interview with Toriyama: "Interviewer: And then the Cell arc ended. Did you think that everyone felt you would put Gohan into the leading role? Toriyama: I intended to put Gohan into the leading role. It didn't work out. I felt that compared to Goku, he was ultimately not suited for the part." Gohan was made the hero and then made Goku the hero. This was not due to fans because at the time Gohan was leading in popularity. So that is debunked right away. Quick look at Toriyama's style of writing: Piccolo saga: The hero/leading role was Goku. Goku was the strongest amongst the good guys. Saiyan Saga: The hero was Goku. Goku was the strongest amongst the good guys. Freeza Saga: The hero was Goku. Goku was the strongest amongst the good guys. Cell Saga: The hero was Gohan. Gohan was the strongest amongst the good guys. Buu Saga: The hero was Goku. ________ was the strongest amongst the good guys. If we follow the pattern the answer to the underline portion would be Goku. This is just the style of Toriyama so to say that even though Goku is the hero does not make him strongest goes against Toriyama's style of writing. You do know that Toriyama wanted to switch everything around for the Boo Saga, and try to get back to his gag roots? So it does't necessarily follow this outline.Toriyama says the anime and daizenshuu is official. Some fans say "we should keep the anime and manga separate because Goku is obviously stronger in the anime" Why should we separate it for that reason? Did Toriyama not say anime was official? Does that not mean it counts? You only want it separate because it clearly derails your interpretation. Did you consider that maybe Toriyama noticed that his manga was vague and wanted to clarify things? The daizenshuu do that too but fans claim it shouldn't be counted either. So people who have gohan > goku and super buu > goku can only rely on the manga even though Toriyama says the anime and daizenshuu are official too. People who think Goku > Gohan and kid buu > Goku > Super Buu have the manga, the anime, and the daizenshuu supporting them. Yes that is all three sources supporting them. If you're a fan of dragonball this should not anger you. You should not be discounting something entirely just because you don't like it. You could always say you wished a person was stronger. I wish Piccolo was stronger but it just did not happen. It does not take away from his badassness, he is still awesome in my books but official statements are concrete. I've already explained, anime and daizenshuu are official adaptions, not canon. Why? Because they contradict the manga. I already explained that if you counted them all as canon, you would have canon statements that contradict each other.
There you go.
I'd just like to get this out of the way; my points show validations to my interpretations. There are different interpretations due to the vague nature of the manga which the users here most likely have already seen. I made these points to show that it is a valid interpretation to have Goku > Gohan. There was no animosity in this yet all I have seen was hostile feedback (except a couple of members). I have given proof to why I see this as right. So let's continue with the actual debate:
What is and what is not canon. I have read the link you posted. And to make sure I was not having any bias towards this idea I put this idea of what is canon up to my friends. The following was what they came up with and simply put I agree with it (I would also like to add, this is also a definition that is similar to those that can be found online): There is an original story with a certain message being portrayed (in this case a manga). If the author approves of other works and those said works become official (in this case the anime and the daizenshuu) they are canon IF it doesn't go against the original source material. The video games, GT, and the movies add elements that directly contradict many things that were already stated (for example in GT Gohan can go super saiyan and the movies timeline conflicts directly with the main story line of the series). The anime has filler. You can look at it in 2 ways, one is it shouldn't be counted and the other is it expands on the idea that was already set. I always felt it expanded on the idea since the message being shown was not harmed in anyway (the message on who is stronger all comes down to interpretation again). The Daizenshuu was worked on by Toriyama, was approved by him, and praised by him (the creator praised it). And since the Daizenshuu is a guidebook which its sole purpose is to describe the contents of the series, it is not harming the source material in any way shape or form. There may be parts that you disagree with (parts that are not stated specifically in the manga) but Toriyama praised it and worked on it so it's valid especially if faults to the original story was not created. The Daizenshuu was written by people, minor errors will happen. When the human factor is added to any project there will be error. "Chapter 229; Page 01; Panel 01 Narrator: "Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!" The narrator explains here how Goku's Kaio-ken technique works. The normal Kaio-ken doubles Goku's battle power. So what does the Kaio-ken x2 that Goku goes on to use against Vegeta do?
Well, to skip ahead a bit, the Kaio-ken x10 is said to increase Goku's strength ten times. In addition, Goku's Kaio-ken x4 battle power at this point is given in Daizenshuu 7 as being 32,000, four times his regular power of 8,000. So if the Kaio-ken x10 increases his power time ten and the Kaio-ken x4 increases it four-fold, you'd think the Kaio-ken x2 would likewise double his power, but that's what the narrator says the regular Kaio-ken does. This would imply that regular Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 are one and the same, but Goku seems to imply that they're different things, since he tries one and then the other in a futile attempt to gain the upper hand against Vegeta. It would seem that this is one of Toriyama's mistakes." Source: http://www.kanzentai.com/bp.php?id=manga
Even without the use of the daizenshuu you can see that Toriyama made mistake.
Herms posted those quotes without taking sides on any issue. He simply posted quotes which discussed power. And I believe he is very reliable for this task and at translating. How does it matter that his interpretation in the end is different from mine? It has no impact on the matter. The quotes I used from him are not biased, simple facts. The final result is up to the reader.
Daizenshuu is just stating what was already written. You agree that Toriyama said he wished he had daizenshuu 7 when making the series? Why would a person say that if it does not contain the view he had in mind?
Piccolo never said he wanted him to fight in ssj did he? Yes Gotenks did fly off but we never have Piccolo once say that he wanted them to fight at that level. And if we add the daizenshuu in it, it works out perfectly. I don't see how that shows ki was no issue. It simply shows that the fusion was a success. Had it been at the level of Goku the reactions would have been through the roof comparing gotenks to goku but there is none of that. Which again is what the daizenshuu has.
Toriyama: "Dragon Ball is Anime and Manga"
AT says it's the same.
But did Goku go all out? That is my point lol. Because Goku did not fight to kill or scare buu. It was a simple stalling tactic. So Buu has no idea how strong Goku is. Gohan is stronger than super buu, no complaint from me about that. And yea point 4 has evidence supporting both sides with the anime and daizenshuu not helping either side.
Goku said he was no match for Super Buu since he was smaller than a flea the same Super Buu said so. Kid Buu was toying with Goku.
Vegito was a match for Buu since he was fused. This is why Goku wanted to fuse since they can beat Buu even in that size when they are fused. Bullets can go through Buu's body and Goku's attacl couldnt' that proves his size decreased his ki.
South Kaioshin is weaker than SSJ Gohan since he failed to release the Z sword. How much power can he give to Kid Buu?? Herms says that Vegeta laughed at his size and they later admitted they underestimated Kid Buu.
Nowhere was South Kaioshin above Super Buu. He is weaker than SSJ Gohan.
Nowhere was it said his power went down when he turned into Kid Buu. It said his power increased and nothing says otherwise. They laughed at his size.
Genki= Gen=origin and ki is ki so Genki is original ki and Kibito was shown exahusted after giving energy and even said he can't teleport.
Vegeta was dead as well and they could of wished them to fight but never did. Vegeta admitted in the Cell Games that Gohan is the strongest and number 1 and yet says the same about Goku in the Buu Saga.
Goku lost his stanima this is why and also, Vegeta said "no" since he knew they can't help
Vegeta said they will push them to their limits
So how come Goku thinks he might lose to Kid Buu after 10 years of training?
AT says he wished he had the Daiz and says Anime and Manga are the same thus makes it canon.
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Selsiuss
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Jun 2 2012, 07:46 PM
Post #36
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About the Anime vs Manga and canon and whatnot subject: If Toriyama wanted Goku to be the ultimate strongest unfused warrior in all of Dragon Ball, he would have had the characters explicitly state it in the Manga. Even if he wanted the idea in the manga after the final volume had already been published, he could have added some pages in a "director's cut" kind of way to state it, like he did when he changed the ending to have Uub riding on Kinto-un instead of Goku's back.
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Paikuan extreme
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Jun 2 2012, 07:54 PM
Post #37
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getting tired of this garbage.
why is it so important that people are trying to porve a point that isnt there?
HOW or WHy does goku eat ultimate gohan after goku, elder kai, supreme kai, super buu and piccolo all say he doesnt? they all say that only gohan can fight super buu and kill him.
Gohan is the Ultimate warrior.
super buu was scared of gohan and knocked goku unconscious with a single kick. (anime)
So how do you anime guys keep coming to the conclusion that goku >gohan?
Ive watched it a million times and never got the same impression you guys did.
The only thing confusing in the anime is who is stronger, Super buu or kid buu.
since goku could barely handle kid buu and never even tried to fight super buu without being fused?
you really dont have a case.
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+ Pyrus
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Jun 2 2012, 08:07 PM
Post #38
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- Selsiuss
- Jun 2 2012, 07:35 PM
Why does the lower portion of your post have lines struck through all the sentences? It's because he has a piece of code for the strike-through at some point in a quote.
Also, if this dude is seriously using that daizenshuu entry for Gotenks being weak, then he should also take a look at this post by Cocoman.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8349613/2/?x=40#post8445885
It effectively uses guidebooks to prove Goku is weaker than Gotenks and Gohan.
Edited by Pyrus, Jun 2 2012, 08:11 PM.
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Spoiler: click to toggle
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pakl123456
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Jun 2 2012, 08:16 PM
Post #39
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- GokuIsMyFriend
- Jun 2 2012, 07:38 PM
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- Jun 2 2012, 05:15 PM
*All credit goes to kakashiUzamaki of youtube, for putting this together. If he doesnt make a neoseeker profile then I'll be the middle man* Here are 7 Massive Points to show the validity of my interpretation. If these 7 points are not absolutely debunked then it should be clear that this interpretation holds. For all we know this may have been the interpretation the writer himself tried to express (and I believe he did have this in mind). Quick information before getting started: Validation of the manga, anime, daizenshuu: Everyone agrees the manga is valid because Toriyama worked on it himself. The anime is official too because Toriyama stated as such. Toriyama worked on the anime. It expanded his idea. The filler that you see, were Toriyama's idea. The daizenshuu is also valid and official like the anime. Toriyama approved of the daizenshuu, he worked on the daizenshuu, and says he wished he had it when making the series. It's legit. Herms: "some things in the daizenshuu were supplied directly by Toriyama: interviews, the "What I'm Up To Nowadays" comics, extra character info, comments on vehicles, the DB cosmos map, the covers and other bits of artwork, etc. Some things are said to have been "supervised" by him, whatever that means, such as the DB Earth map. Finally, the entire book series were approved by him: they're official products, have his name on the cover, his introductions to the different volumes praise the staff's work and say he wished he had the books around when creating the series, etc." Welcome to the forum Goku. While I assure you that you are probably a great person, your post will be met with great hostility. And this is for a reason. You are assuming the anime is canon. You see, once upon a time, Akira Toriyama started writing a comic that he called "Dragon Ball". While you may know the anime version as Dragon Ball Z, it was originally just 'Dragon Ball' as the manga version. Some people, Toei and Funimation, thought it was good, and asked Toriyama if they could make it into an anime cartoon. Toriyama gave them the A-OK, and they made it. You see, the problem is, the anime is an adaption of the original manga; it's based on the manga, but it isn't the manga itself. If you regard both the anime and manga as canon, then you have canon contradicting itself. For example, in the anime, they make the fight between Freeza and SSjin Goku almost even at times. In the manga, it is clear that Goku always holds the obvious edge in the fight. If you regard both of them as canon, then that means you have two canon statements:
1.) SSjin Goku is obviously stronger than Freeza 2.) Freeza is almost on par with SSjin Goku
You see the problem in this? The anime is an official adaption of the manga, but the manga itself is the canon Dragon Ball. If you were to go by anime and daizenshuu, then you would receive statements that contradict the manga. The Daizenshuu and anime are both official adaptions of the Dragon Ball manga, that are based on it, but do not necessarily agree with it at all times.One final point before we begin. I did not use any numbers in this. This is my way of showing respect to Toriyama who decided to get rid of power levels because he felt fans were obsessing over it too much when there is more to a fight than that. He removed it from his series so therefore I will not have it here. Seems OK to me.And now the 7 Points: 1) Fat Buu > Pre-Rosat Gotenks You keep saying Gotenks at ssj is powerful enough to beat fat buu which he never was. I don't have to post that part where gotenks got his ***** kicked. Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5 Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans Gotenks: "Hehhehheh...Aren't you underestimating me? Like this, I'm more than enough to defeat Majin Boo." Piccolo: "Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don't know anything about Majin Boo's fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there's still absolutely no way you'd be able to win!" The problem is that this quote is referring to Base Gotenks. It's pretty obvious that Base Gotenks < Fat Boo, we know this already from the fight. This quote says nothing about SSjin Gotenks' power.Also we never once have Piccolo tell Gotenks to go fight buu at ssj. Goku took a gamble with the kids and told this truth to Piccolo in secret Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3 Piccolo: "...Probably? Knowing you, why didn't you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy...?" Goku: "No...I'm no longer a human who's particularly even supposed to be here...I shouldn't be the one to do it. It'd be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another...After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? ...It's a nasty gamble, but...Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble..." But you see, Goku says that seeing those two super gifted squirts, it made him want to risk letting them fight Fat Boo. Goku is dumb, but not that dumb. He knows Fat Boo could destroy the universe, he's not going to leave the fight in the hand of Gotenks if he thought Gotenks would lose.The daizenshuu states: "The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta " I've already explained it; the Daizenshuu is an adaption of an adaption of the manga, the manga being the only canon source. The Daizenshuu is based off the anime, the anime is based off the manga. Along the way, facts are going to get jumbled up so much that the Daizenshuu couldn't even be considered canon to Dragon Ball without making a crapload of contradictions.So that means Gotenks was weaker than vegeta pre rosat and is only stronger than him post rosat. They don't say Goku. Which leads to base vegeta > base gotenks BUT ssj2 vegeta < ssj3 gotenks. The anime: When kaioshin asks Goku if gotenks is stronger than him Goku goes eeeeeh I can do it too and then changes the topic. I've already explained pretty much that the anime is not canon. It is an official adaption of the canon manga.2) Fat Buu = Super Buu We know fat buu can get stronger as he gets angrier. This is evident in multiple cases such as Vegeta making him angry. Steam erupts from his head. The greater the anger the greater the strength. So fat buu's maximum power is not felt. Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P2.3 Narrator: "Due to his strong anger, the evil portion that Majin Boo had kept inside himself greatly swelled up and became another Majin Boo, who came flying out...In other words, he was divided into a pure evil Majin Boo and an innocent Majin Boo..." Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4 Context: as the two Boos fight Narrator: "The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one..." These 2 quotes show that when fat buu split into good and evil most of the fat buu's power went to the evil one. The evil one then ate the good one and regained his power. This results in his powers being returned to the state of fat buu. But now the evil side is dominant which leads to complete access to the powers fat buu could only achieve through rage (this is a restricted max of kid buu but more on that later). Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6 Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo Piccolo: "...Have you noticed? ...This change in Majin Boo's ki...[ ] ...He's changed...All due to some idiotic Earthlings...He's become pure evil, and his body had become more suited toward battle...Th-this...this..." Kuririn: "Wha...What?...D-don't tell me you're saying this is bad!? ...It's al-alright! We've got the squirts' Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest...!" Dende: "..." Piccolo: "...That'd be nice, but..." Piccolo states that this buu is evil and has a better built body. Piccolo says this buu is greater in all aspects which works fine with this interpreation because like I said super buu can access the complete power. Fat buu and super buu are comprised of the same elements and have the same restrictions inside of them when it comes to power. The difference is nature and body. Due to the evil nature the anger to access energy is not needed. That's bit wrong. And by a bit, I mean completely, utterly, and totally wrong. - Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292)
- P2.2-6
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…” Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!” Dende: “…” Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…”
Notice how Piccolo says that his ki has changed. - Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292)
- P3.1
Goku: “…This is Majin Boo, right? This ki…what is it?...”
Goku is shocked at Evil Boo's ki. - Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P6.1-3
- P7.1-3
Context: after Gotenks blasts Boo with the Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles and Piccolo stops him Gotenks: “Well, whatever. I already did quite a lot, after all. He should be pretty weakened.” *Boo comes out* Gotenks: “…He ain’t weakened…This really pisses me off!” Piccolo: “N-no…He is weakened…I don’t know about physically, but he’s weakened a little mentally…! Th-this is the first time…that he’s fought someone strong like you…He’s feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own…” Gotenks: “Dehhehheh! So in other words, Majin Boo’s freaked out, huh!? That’s right! My strength ain’t half-assed! I’m the best in the universe!” Piccolo: “Don’t let your guard down! He’ll be coming at you frantically now…!” Gotenks: “Dahhahhah, that’s no problem, no problem at all! That’s just what I was hoping for!” Piccolo basically states that SSjin 3 Gotenks is the first person at least on par with Evil Boo. How is this possible if SSjin 3 Goku > SSjin 3 Gotenks? Furthermore, Gotenks states he is the strongest in the universe, already having sensed Goku's power before. - Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312)
- P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!” Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!” Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!” Goku himself even states that he can't win against Evil Boo. And don't even say that Goku was trying not to hurt Vegeta's feelings by not going SSjin 3: - Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316)
- P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!” Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.” Vegeta: “Eh?” Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.” Vegeta: “One minute?!” Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!” Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”
Vegeta thinks that Goku isn't going all out because he's afraid of hurting Vegeta's feelings. However, Goku flat out states that he's not holding back for Vegeta's feelings, he's holding back because he needs more time to power up. Vegeta even acknowledges this by saying "...S ...So you weren't thinking of me..." And by Goku saying he couldn't beat Evil Boo but he could beat Fat Boo, and by acknowledging that he wasn't holding back for Vegeta's sake, we basically have uncontradicted canon statements that Fat Boo < SSjin 3 Goku < Evil Boo3) Buutenks > kid buu, Buutenks > Super Buu Buutenks states this is the birth of the strongest majin. Super buu never once stated it because it would be a lie if he did. Now we know buutenks is the strongest as of now. Old kai also tells Goku that he cannot win. Buutenks never specifies how much stronger than he is than kid buu though... Gotenks-Boo has the absorption of Gotenks, which makes him so cocky. Gohan-Boo is cocky as well, due to having absorbed Gohan. Evil Boo was pretty much the strongest Boo to date, since Goku could beat Fat Boo, he beat Pure Boo, but he stated that him and Vegeta would be killed against Evil Boo. Evil Boo was the strongest Boo to date, but it wasn't in his personality to brag about it.4) Inside Super Buu Goku was microscopic This one comes down to interpretation. I will show you why mine makes sense in the longer run since we all know there is more to the manga than this. At this point in time Goku and vegeta are inside buu. They never were in this predicament before. At the time they did not know they could return to normal size. Why would they? When they were turned into candy buu had to change them back himself. This also shows the miracle of the fusion between goku and vegeta. This is why Goku wanted fusion, even as candy they were able to fight. Goku: "Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we're still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we'll definitely be done in...!" Notice the "like this" portion. Some say fusion I say size. I'm sorry, but I want to slam my face against a brick wall repeatedly. I think my IQ dropped a bit. What suggests that even if Goku thought they would still be microscopic, their,ki would be lowered? Vegetto's ki wasn't lowered when he was turned into a gumball. And he still says that he is simply no match for Evil Boo's strength. Furthermore, after getting out of Boo, he never states anything like "Thank the Kais, we're back to normal size!". He never acknowledges it. He just fused and then unfused, so what makes you think he's referring to his size when Vegetto's ki wasn't lowered when he shrunk?Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6 Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo Goku: "Alrii—iight! Come at me if you're gonna. I'll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can't open one?" Boo: "It's no use." Goku: "Don't underestimate me." *Goku blasts, not much happens* Goku: "..." Vegeta: "...It di-didn't have any effect..." Boo: "It stung a little here, that's all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas." Here Goku does not say he can kill super buu from the inside (he can;t because he knows due to his size he cannot do it) but he thinks he can at least blow a hole. But super buu makes the statement to reaffirm that they are smaller than fleas and that is why they cannot blow a hole. Vegetto's ki did not shrink when he shrunk, so what makes you think Goku was weaker from being small?5) Kid buu > Super Buu When kid buu is being born: Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5 Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form Goku: "H-hey...Vegeta...His ki is increasing, ain't it...!?" This power increase is coming all from kid buu. There is no one inside buu right now. The only one supplying the power is kid buu. There is no south kai there (south kai does not add power but more on that later). So this is all kid buu. Did you miss that part in the context?
The one where it says
"As Evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form"
Majin Boo wasn't in his pure form, he was in his South Kaioshin form.Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6 Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form Goku: "..." Vegeta: "......Heh...Heheheh...Look! He's shrunk down quite a bit!" Goku: "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something." Context: 'He's shrunk' refers to Boo's body, not his ki. Misconception is people think they laughed at his ki but it was his size they laughed at. The context written above is from the translator so no I did not add that. He is very reliable and stays neutral to power comparison, he only states what is there. If that is not enough evidence for you look at the birth of freeza's and cell's final form. There was always someone there to make fun of it. The problem is that Vegeta and Goku can sense ki. They're not dumb.Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.4-6 Vegeta: "That Boo is stronger than I imagined...And so are you, Kakarot..." Another clear indication that Vegeta underestimated Kid Buu Pure Boo wasn't really using full power when he immediately formed. Chances are, Vegeta was referring to Pure Boo's true full power, which would be around SSjin 3 Goku's power, SSjin 3 Goku's power being unable to beat Evil Boo.The kai's weakened buu. This is also stated by the manga: Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7 Kaioshin: "In m...my era there were five Kaioshins...until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created...I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries...But the other four fell to Boo...First, two were killed...the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin....And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was...somehow absorbed by Boo..... " Elder Kaioshin: ...And he became that huge Boo from before? " Kaioshin: "...Yes...Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin....The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn't handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow became controllable.... " Elder Kaioshin: "...So he was finally complete...Which is to say...that this current...small Majin Boo...is the initial...mo...most troublesome one..." Kaioshin: "....Yes...the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)...has returned once again to the way it was...he has no self-control whatsoever...he has become evil itself..." Fun fact: the reason Herms put the 's' after absorption in parenthesis is because most Japanese nouns have no plural form; basically, the plural form is spelt the same as the singular form. So it's up to debate whether or not it was the absorption of both Kais, or just one Kai. What I think is that when Boo absorbs someone, he takes on their predominant trait. South Kaioshin's muscles and brute strength, Gotenks cockiness and power, Gohan's... cockiness and power (lol), and finally, Grand Kaioshin's jolliness and purity and innocence and fatness. Grand Kaioshin's traits were what weaken Boo. Sure, Gotenks and Gohan were probably pure of heart, by they weren't completely jolly, pure, innocent, and fat.The absorptions weakened him. South kai being absorbed was not enough for buu to be controllable. Only after two absorptions was buu controllable. They say dai-kaioshin was pure of heart but guess what so was Gohan. Gohan was pure of heart and was also a kind soul (he could ride kintoun) but buu got a power increase from him. This is because the kai energy itself is harmful to buu as shown by more evidence here: How could both of the absorptions of the Kais weakened Boo when South Kaioshin Boo was stated to be stronger than Evil Boo? Only Dai Kaioshin's absorption weakened Boo, because:
Dai Kaioshin was fat, meaning Fat Boo couldn't fight as well Dai Kaioshin was completely pure, jolly, and innocent, contradicting Pure Boo's persona and making it hard for him to use his full power. When Dai Kaioshin was removed from Evil Boo, he was stated to become stronger, but Boo wasn't stated to become stronger when he reverted to his pure form.Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3 Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co. Dabra: "Seems they're trying to hide from us...In total...there are 7. We can't use Kaioshin and Kibito's energy...But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy..." Babidi: "Looks like it. It seems that we'll get more than enough energy from just those 3...Kuhihihi...To think that we'd be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly..." They can't use their energy? Why? That's right because it harms buu and weakens him. Even the potara earrings, a kai artifact, stops working inside buu. Firstly, chances are that Babidi was just afraid that Boo would get weakened from them because he saw what happened with Dai Kaioshin's absorption. South Kaioshin Boo, however, was stronger than Pure Boo. Babidi didn't want to take the chance and risk Boo getting weaker again, even though South Kaioshin's absorption did in fact make Boo stronger. He probably just was taking the safe side, seeing that Dai Kaioshin weakened Boo.Kid buu also stopped the spirit bomb that had gohan and the worlds energy in it plus goku wanted gohan and gotenks to come help as in kid buu is much stronger than super buu this is why gohan and gotenks would both be needed. Firstly, there is a differentiation between Genki and Ki. Toriyama said that ki in Dragon Ball is made up from 3 parts in an interview: shouki (state of mind), genki (life energy), and yuuki (bravery). Genki just makes up one third of a person's ki. Furthermore, do you think Gohan gave all his power to the Genki Dama? If he did, he would be exhausted, and Goten and Trunks didn't fuse to give their power to the Genki Dama. So they didn't give their full genki, and genki in the first place just makes up one third of their total ki.The anime and manga also state that kid buu is the most dangerous/difficult. This is not just because he is unpredictable. People say kid buu blowing up the planet right away is why. Frieza, Cell, and Buutenks tried to blow up the planet too. Cell tried twice. Super Buu wiped out the earths population in an instant. Unpredictable is not why old kaioshin says kid buu is the most difficult. It's because kid buu > super buu and this is why it is more difficult for goku and vegeta to beat him. I've already established that anime is an official adaption of the manga, and is not canon.6) Kid Buu > Goku > Gohan Lets get the daizenshuu out of the way: Daizenshuu states: "In order to defeat Majin Buu, he had his dormant power drawn out by the Elder Kaioshin. Even without becoming a Super Saiyan, he has power surpassing Gotenks." Stronger than gotenks but NOT Goku. And as seen from previous daizenshuu quote gotenks > vegeta but not Goku and we know from piccolo's statements that Gotenks = super buu. Daizenshuu also states about Goku: "The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!" One more: Just as Goku was about to kill kid buu the daizenshuu summary states: "Goku's feelings are only understood by his fellow strongest." This solidifies Goku and kid buu as the strongest that were there. The anime: Goku when seeing Buucolo says you don't plan on beating me like that, and both in the anime and manga he says cheh I'm dissapointed. EVEN Gohan can beat you now. This gives Goku superiority. The Daizenshuu is an adaption of the anime which is an adaption of the manga. The anime is an adaption of the manga. They are official adaptions, but not canon, since they contradict the orginal manga.Now on to the manga: Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2 Context: as Goku fights pure Boo Vegeta: "Kakarot...You're incredible...I am simply no match for that Majin Boo...You're the only one capable of fighting him..." Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6 Vegeta: "Don't hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might...!" Goku: "Ye...yeah...I've been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but...I haven't gotten the chance." Vegeta: "Eh?" Goku: "If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute." Vegeta: "One minute?!" Goku: "Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. .....Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this...!" Vegeta: "...S ...So you weren't thinking of me..." Vegeta states only Goku can handle kid buu. Before someone says that is said only amongst them and it is said because Gohan is dead, guess what, Vegeta is dead too at that point. We later have Goku say he was messing around to much but both Goku and Vegeta agree that Goku BY HIMSELF at full power can defeat this buu (this buu is actually playing around). Gohan and Gotenks are dead, in some long line waiting to get their body and go to Other World. Goku was the only one at the time who could fight Pure Boo. Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4 Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs Goku: "Oh, I know! You'll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight." Vegeta: "No." This shows Goku does not believe Gohan alone could beat kid buu. We already know from the previous statement Goku believes by himself he can defeat kid buu (it doesn't matter about method) but does not believe Gohan alone could do it and instead 2 people are needed. Goku was just throwing out ideas by this point, and why would he say to resurrect Gohan and Gotenks if he could fight Pure Boo himself easily? And Vegeta said no because he didn't want them to get absorbed, after which nobody would be able to beat the new Boo.Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P8.3-4 Goku: "Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it's no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings..." Vegeta: "I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then...! It won't be just little bit. We'll gather ki from them right up to their limits!" Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1 Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama Goku: "Hey, even this probably isn't enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!" I added these because some say Gohan did not give it his all. As these quotes show Goku took the maximum amount of energy from everyone. And after getting gohan and the others ki, it was not enough. We later see kid buu even block the massive spirit bomb. People say the reason kid buu was able to block it was because Goku had no stamina. Goku says that 'those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then', referring to the humans and earthlings, not to Goten, Trunks, and Gohan. Furthermore, genki is but one third of ki, and if they really gave all of their genki, they would die. By gathering their genki 'up to their limits', that basically means, as much as the humans can give until they die. Again, there is a differentiation between genki and ki.Goku had enough stamina to keep flying. Remember namek, and the spirit bomb that was thrown at freeza? Goku couldn't even stand there and frieza could not block it. It was a matter of power and not stamina. The stamina only comes into effect when the enemy is able to block the force of the genki dama and then begins to push it back. This is what happened to kid buu. He was pushing it back all while the genki dama was pushing it with its force. Why do you think the Genki-Dama is different from any ki blast? Because it is comprised only of genki, not all three parts of ki. Pure Boo wasn't actually pushing back the combined ki of Gohan, Goten and Trunks, and other Z Fighters and humans; he was pushing a big mass of genki, and Gohan's genki would not be his full ki, and the genki he contributed would not be all his genki. Anyone who contributes all their genki would die, as they would give away their entire life force.Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P8.5-6 Context: people on Namek and in the afterlife watch Boo stall the Genki-Dama Elder Kaioshin: "Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that 'Genki-Dama' thing st-still doesn't have enough power..." Dende: "Th-that can't be...! We-we already used our ki..." Enma Daio: "Ha-hang in there, Son Goku...! Th-that Genki-Dama has power from us here in the afterlife in it too...!" They're talking about the genki dama not being strong enough. Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.6-7 Context: after one of Goku's attacks damages Boo Goku: "That bastard...Even though he can quickly return to normal, he's playing around by purposefully drawing it out..." *Boo is clearly lollygagging* This shows only up till genki dama kid buu has simply been playing around. Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P11.2-3 Context: after Polunga restores Goku's stamina and he's about to finish Boo off with the Genki-Dama Goku: "...You're amazin'. You hung in there really well...All on your own...This time, be reborn as a good guy...I wanna fight you one-on-one...I'll be waiting...And I'll have gotten much, much better...See ya later!" 10 years later: Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5 Goku: "...But someone besides us and Boo might win." Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P11.6-8 Goku: "He's the one...While I've been training on my own, I've been waiting all this time for that kid to enter the tournament...[ ] ]...10 years ago, when that outrageously bad Majin Boo died, I made a wish...That this time, he be reborn as a good guy, so we could fight one-on-one...Apparently old man Enma Daio heard me, and pulled some strings on my behalf..." 10 years later after nonstop training Goku still believes that kid buu may still win. This just goes to show that kid buu was close to the level of buutenks and was clearly stronger than Goku at the time of the kid buu arc. What? No. Vegeta and Goku both state that Goku in SSjin 3 at full power could defeat Pure Boo. Furthermore, it was an issue of stamina, not power. After Goku having his power restored by Porunga, he easily pushes the Genki Dama onto Pure Boo.7) Miscellaneous Information From daizenshuu 2, an interview with Toriyama: "Interviewer: And then the Cell arc ended. Did you think that everyone felt you would put Gohan into the leading role? Toriyama: I intended to put Gohan into the leading role. It didn't work out. I felt that compared to Goku, he was ultimately not suited for the part." Gohan was made the hero and then made Goku the hero. This was not due to fans because at the time Gohan was leading in popularity. So that is debunked right away. Quick look at Toriyama's style of writing: Piccolo saga: The hero/leading role was Goku. Goku was the strongest amongst the good guys. Saiyan Saga: The hero was Goku. Goku was the strongest amongst the good guys. Freeza Saga: The hero was Goku. Goku was the strongest amongst the good guys. Cell Saga: The hero was Gohan. Gohan was the strongest amongst the good guys. Buu Saga: The hero was Goku. ________ was the strongest amongst the good guys. If we follow the pattern the answer to the underline portion would be Goku. This is just the style of Toriyama so to say that even though Goku is the hero does not make him strongest goes against Toriyama's style of writing. You do know that Toriyama wanted to switch everything around for the Boo Saga, and try to get back to his gag roots? So it does't necessarily follow this outline.Toriyama says the anime and daizenshuu is official. Some fans say "we should keep the anime and manga separate because Goku is obviously stronger in the anime" Why should we separate it for that reason? Did Toriyama not say anime was official? Does that not mean it counts? You only want it separate because it clearly derails your interpretation. Did you consider that maybe Toriyama noticed that his manga was vague and wanted to clarify things? The daizenshuu do that too but fans claim it shouldn't be counted either. So people who have gohan > goku and super buu > goku can only rely on the manga even though Toriyama says the anime and daizenshuu are official too. People who think Goku > Gohan and kid buu > Goku > Super Buu have the manga, the anime, and the daizenshuu supporting them. Yes that is all three sources supporting them. If you're a fan of dragonball this should not anger you. You should not be discounting something entirely just because you don't like it. You could always say you wished a person was stronger. I wish Piccolo was stronger but it just did not happen. It does not take away from his badassness, he is still awesome in my books but official statements are concrete. I've already explained, anime and daizenshuu are official adaptions, not canon. Why? Because they contradict the manga. I already explained that if you counted them all as canon, you would have canon statements that contradict each other.
There you go.
I'd just like to get this out of the way; my points show validations to my interpretations. There are different interpretations due to the vague nature of the manga which the users here most likely have already seen. I made these points to show that it is a valid interpretation to have Goku > Gohan. There was no animosity in this yet all I have seen was hostile feedback (except a couple of members). I have given proof to why I see this as right. So let's continue with the actual debate: What is and what is not canon. I have read the link you posted. And to make sure I was not having any bias towards this idea I put this idea of what is canon up to my friends. The following was what they came up with and simply put I agree with it (I would also like to add, this is also a definition that is similar to those that can be found online): There is an original story with a certain message being portrayed (in this case a manga). If the author approves of other works and those said works become official (in this case the anime and the daizenshuu) they are canon IF it doesn't go against the original source material. The video games, GT, and the movies add elements that directly contradict many things that were already stated (for example in GT Gohan can go super saiyan and the movies timeline conflicts directly with the main story line of the series). The anime has filler. You can look at it in 2 ways, one is it shouldn't be counted and the other is it expands on the idea that was already set. I always felt it expanded on the idea since the message being shown was not harmed in anyway (the message on who is stronger all comes down to interpretation again). The Daizenshuu was worked on by Toriyama, was approved by him, and praised by him (the creator praised it). And since the Daizenshuu is a guidebook which its sole purpose is to describe the contents of the series, it is not harming the source material in any way shape or form. There may be parts that you disagree with (parts that are not stated specifically in the manga) but Toriyama praised it and worked on it so it's valid especially if faults to the original story was not created. The Daizenshuu was written by people, minor errors will happen. When the human factor is added to any project there will be error. "Chapter 229; Page 01; Panel 01 Narrator: "Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!" The narrator explains here how Goku's Kaio-ken technique works. The normal Kaio-ken doubles Goku's battle power. So what does the Kaio-ken x2 that Goku goes on to use against Vegeta do? Well, to skip ahead a bit, the Kaio-ken x10 is said to increase Goku's strength ten times. In addition, Goku's Kaio-ken x4 battle power at this point is given in Daizenshuu 7 as being 32,000, four times his regular power of 8,000. So if the Kaio-ken x10 increases his power time ten and the Kaio-ken x4 increases it four-fold, you'd think the Kaio-ken x2 would likewise double his power, but that's what the narrator says the regular Kaio-ken does. This would imply that regular Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 are one and the same, but Goku seems to imply that they're different things, since he tries one and then the other in a futile attempt to gain the upper hand against Vegeta. It would seem that this is one of Toriyama's mistakes." Source: http://www.kanzentai.com/bp.php?id=mangaEven without the use of the daizenshuu you can see that Toriyama made mistake. Herms posted those quotes without taking sides on any issue. He simply posted quotes which discussed power. And I believe he is very reliable for this task and at translating. How does it matter that his interpretation in the end is different from mine? It has no impact on the matter. The quotes I used from him are not biased, simple facts. The final result is up to the reader. Daizenshuu is just stating what was already written. You agree that Toriyama said he wished he had daizenshuu 7 when making the series? Why would a person say that if it does not contain the view he had in mind? Piccolo never said he wanted him to fight in ssj did he? Yes Gotenks did fly off but we never have Piccolo once say that he wanted them to fight at that level. And if we add the daizenshuu in it, it works out perfectly. I don't see how that shows ki was no issue. It simply shows that the fusion was a success. Had it been at the level of Goku the reactions would have been through the roof comparing gotenks to goku but there is none of that. Which again is what the daizenshuu has. Toriyama: "Dragon Ball is Anime and Manga" AT says it's the same. But did Goku go all out? That is my point lol. Because Goku did not fight to kill or scare buu. It was a simple stalling tactic. So Buu has no idea how strong Goku is. Gohan is stronger than super buu, no complaint from me about that. And yea point 4 has evidence supporting both sides with the anime and daizenshuu not helping either side. Goku said he was no match for Super Buu since he was smaller than a flea the same Super Buu said so. Kid Buu was toying with Goku. Vegito was a match for Buu since he was fused. This is why Goku wanted to fuse since they can beat Buu even in that size when they are fused. Bullets can go through Buu's body and Goku's attacl couldnt' that proves his size decreased his ki. South Kaioshin is weaker than SSJ Gohan since he failed to release the Z sword. How much power can he give to Kid Buu?? Herms says that Vegeta laughed at his size and they later admitted they underestimated Kid Buu. Nowhere was South Kaioshin above Super Buu. He is weaker than SSJ Gohan. Nowhere was it said his power went down when he turned into Kid Buu. It said his power increased and nothing says otherwise. They laughed at his size. Genki= Gen=origin and ki is ki so Genki is original ki and Kibito was shown exahusted after giving energy and even said he can't teleport. Vegeta was dead as well and they could of wished them to fight but never did. Vegeta admitted in the Cell Games that Gohan is the strongest and number 1 and yet says the same about Goku in the Buu Saga. Goku lost his stanima this is why and also, Vegeta said "no" since he knew they can't help Vegeta said they will push them to their limits So how come Goku thinks he might lose to Kid Buu after 10 years of training? AT says he wished he had the Daiz and says Anime and Manga are the same thus makes it canon. Piccolo was impressed about Gotenks's ki and said it was awesome. He was not worried till Super Buu's and never said the Rosat was necessary. Why if Fat Buu>SSJ Gotenks?? Simple since SSJ Gotenks>Fat Buu and Piccolo knew it
Daizenshuu and Manga are not canon they are contradicting the Manga. AT said Anime and Manga are DBZ since it copies the story bot because they have the exact same facts. Anime states Kid Buu>Buuhan and Manga never said so. If Anime counts so fillers also count and you say fillers are true and not contradicting the Manga?? For example, SSjin Goku has an edge over Ghost Gohan inside Boo, who he states is just as strong as the real one (and before you say "NOPE", the daizenshuu backs it up). SSjin Goku is weaker than SSjin 2 Goku -- fact. SSjin 2 Goku was equal to SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta -- fact. SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta was so far below Majin Boo that he felt self-destructing was the only option -- fact. Evil Boo is stronger than Majin Boo -- fact. Ultimate Gohan whooped Evil Boo -- fact. So using the anime, we get:
SSjin Goku >= Ultimate Gohan > Evil Boo > Majin Boo > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta = SSjin 2 Goku > SSjin Goku
Explain that one without stretching things and saying "Derp, Goku obviously meant Gohan as in pre-ritual Gohan", because that makes no sense whatsoever.
If you want to use filler, explain how Mister Popo is as strong as the Super Saiyan boys who were at least on par with Cyborg #18 (in the anime).
Explain how in the anime, #18 was at least equal with the Super Saiyan boys, but in the manga, they scared the crap out of her so badly with a suppressed chi blast (Trunks did since Goten couldn't see or do anything) that she ended the match with a Kienzan.
Explain how SSjin Vegeta could even put up a fight with Evil Boo inside Boo's head.
Explain how SSjin Goku could punch Gohan-Boo off of SSjin Vegeta when it wasn't a surprise attack.
Explain how SSjin 2 Goku could do better against Pure Boo than he did as a Super Saiyan 3.
Explain how SSjin Vegeta could even put up a fight with SSjin 3 Gotenks, and how Piccolo could do anything to him.
All of that is filler, and all of it contradicts the manga.
Cut your bull***** dude, size had no part in that. Goku never knew his size effected him since he was surprised when he saw he can't blast Buu's body and wanted to use fusion which doesn't help their size. Earrings did since it's a kai item. Goku was afraid to fight Super Buu nside of his body when he was as small as they were and Goku was afraid to fight outside and when he was at normal size and wanted to fuse there so your point is debunked. Size had no part in ut. Super Buu>>>>SSJ3 Goku. Deal with it.
When Buu's antena grows his power increases as well. This is why Buff Buu>>Kid Buu since his antena was longer and he was massively stronger.
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5 Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P1.3 Context: evil Boo continues to revert to his South Kaioshin form Goku: “…H-hey…He’s changed into an awfully bulky guy…”
So to say that South Kaioshin didn't increase Buu's power is moronic.
Vegeta did but it doesn't matter. Goku said "we did it" since they brought Buu's power to a rwasonable level. Goku is not that kind of guy who understimates someone's size. Not even the Cell Jrs.
Gohan was not shown tired so he gave some of his ki. If the spirit bomb uses raw power so how come Gohan was not tired and Goten and Trunks never fused or went SSJs?
LOL. You are an idiot. Vegeta had his body there. Vegeta said he Goku is the only one who can fight Buu since everyone was dead and Vegeta himself can do nothing. Vegeta was dead too but he had his body there you *****. The whole context was about Vegeta and Goku as rivals so Vegeta compared Goku to himself and admitted Goku was stronger than him. You are debunked. Vegeta said no since they wanted the earthlings to save the day and since nothing can beat Buu's regeneration except Genki Dama. He knew they can be absorbed as well, I repeat debunked!
He said they will push the Earthlings to their limits not Gohan.
Goku never knew how strong Uub was and was handling him at base form which supports the idea of Kid Buu and SSJ3 Goku as equals.
No, they are guidebooks which contradict the Manga, hence they are non canon.
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pakl123456
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Jun 2 2012, 08:18 PM
Post #40
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*All credit goes to kakashiUzamaki of youtube, for putting this together. If he doesnt make a neoseeker profile then I'll be the middle man* Here are 7 Massive Points to show the validity of my interpretation. If these 7 points are not absolutely debunked then it should be clear that this interpretation holds. For all we know this may have been the interpretation the writer himself tried to express (and I believe he did have this in mind). Quick information before getting started: Validation of the manga, anime, daizenshuu: Everyone agrees the manga is valid because Toriyama worked on it himself. The anime is official too because Toriyama stated as such. Toriyama worked on the anime. It expanded his idea. The filler that you see, were Toriyama's idea. The daizenshuu is also valid and official like the anime. Toriyama approved of the daizenshuu, he worked on the daizenshuu, and says he wished he had it when making the series. It's legit. Herms: "some things in the daizenshuu were supplied directly by Toriyama: interviews, the "What I'm Up To Nowadays" comics, extra character info, comments on vehicles, the DB cosmos map, the covers and other bits of artwork, etc. Some things are said to have been "supervised" by him, whatever that means, such as the DB Earth map. Finally, the entire book series were approved by him: they're official products, have his name on the cover, his introductions to the different volumes praise the staff's work and say he wished he had the books around when creating the series, etc." Welcome to the forum Goku. While I assure you that you are probably a great person, your post will be met with great hostility. And this is for a reason. You are assuming the anime is canon. You see, once upon a time, Akira Toriyama started writing a comic that he called "Dragon Ball". While you may know the anime version as Dragon Ball Z, it was originally just 'Dragon Ball' as the manga version. Some people, Toei and Funimation, thought it was good, and asked Toriyama if they could make it into an anime cartoon. Toriyama gave them the A-OK, and they made it. You see, the problem is, the anime is an adaption of the original manga; it's based on the manga, but it isn't the manga itself. If you regard both the anime and manga as canon, then you have canon contradicting itself. For example, in the anime, they make the fight between Freeza and SSjin Goku almost even at times. In the manga, it is clear that Goku always holds the obvious edge in the fight. If you regard both of them as canon, then that means you have two canon statements:
1.) SSjin Goku is obviously stronger than Freeza 2.) Freeza is almost on par with SSjin Goku
You see the problem in this? The anime is an official adaption of the manga, but the manga itself is the canon Dragon Ball. If you were to go by anime and daizenshuu, then you would receive statements that contradict the manga. The Daizenshuu and anime are both official adaptions of the Dragon Ball manga, that are based on it, but do not necessarily agree with it at all times.One final point before we begin. I did not use any numbers in this. This is my way of showing respect to Toriyama who decided to get rid of power levels because he felt fans were obsessing over it too much when there is more to a fight than that. He removed it from his series so therefore I will not have it here. Seems OK to me.And now the 7 Points: 1) Fat Buu > Pre-Rosat Gotenks You keep saying Gotenks at ssj is powerful enough to beat fat buu which he never was. I don't have to post that part where gotenks got his ***** kicked. Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5 Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans Gotenks: "Hehhehheh...Aren't you underestimating me? Like this, I'm more than enough to defeat Majin Boo." Piccolo: "Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don't know anything about Majin Boo's fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there's still absolutely no way you'd be able to win!" The problem is that this quote is referring to Base Gotenks. It's pretty obvious that Base Gotenks < Fat Boo, we know this already from the fight. This quote says nothing about SSjin Gotenks' power.Also we never once have Piccolo tell Gotenks to go fight buu at ssj. Goku took a gamble with the kids and told this truth to Piccolo in secret Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3 Piccolo: "...Probably? Knowing you, why didn't you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy...?" Goku: "No...I'm no longer a human who's particularly even supposed to be here...I shouldn't be the one to do it. It'd be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another...After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? ...It's a nasty gamble, but...Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble..." But you see, Goku says that seeing those two super gifted squirts, it made him want to risk letting them fight Fat Boo. Goku is dumb, but not that dumb. He knows Fat Boo could destroy the universe, he's not going to leave the fight in the hand of Gotenks if he thought Gotenks would lose.The daizenshuu states: "The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta " I've already explained it; the Daizenshuu is an adaption of an adaption of the manga, the manga being the only canon source. The Daizenshuu is based off the anime, the anime is based off the manga. Along the way, facts are going to get jumbled up so much that the Daizenshuu couldn't even be considered canon to Dragon Ball without making a crapload of contradictions.So that means Gotenks was weaker than vegeta pre rosat and is only stronger than him post rosat. They don't say Goku. Which leads to base vegeta > base gotenks BUT ssj2 vegeta < ssj3 gotenks. The anime: When kaioshin asks Goku if gotenks is stronger than him Goku goes eeeeeh I can do it too and then changes the topic. I've already explained pretty much that the anime is not canon. It is an official adaption of the canon manga.2) Fat Buu = Super Buu We know fat buu can get stronger as he gets angrier. This is evident in multiple cases such as Vegeta making him angry. Steam erupts from his head. The greater the anger the greater the strength. So fat buu's maximum power is not felt. Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P2.3 Narrator: "Due to his strong anger, the evil portion that Majin Boo had kept inside himself greatly swelled up and became another Majin Boo, who came flying out...In other words, he was divided into a pure evil Majin Boo and an innocent Majin Boo..." Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4 Context: as the two Boos fight Narrator: "The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one..." These 2 quotes show that when fat buu split into good and evil most of the fat buu's power went to the evil one. The evil one then ate the good one and regained his power. This results in his powers being returned to the state of fat buu. But now the evil side is dominant which leads to complete access to the powers fat buu could only achieve through rage (this is a restricted max of kid buu but more on that later). Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6 Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo Piccolo: "...Have you noticed? ...This change in Majin Boo's ki...[ ] ...He's changed...All due to some idiotic Earthlings...He's become pure evil, and his body had become more suited toward battle...Th-this...this..." Kuririn: "Wha...What?...D-don't tell me you're saying this is bad!? ...It's al-alright! We've got the squirts' Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest...!" Dende: "..." Piccolo: "...That'd be nice, but..." Piccolo states that this buu is evil and has a better built body. Piccolo says this buu is greater in all aspects which works fine with this interpreation because like I said super buu can access the complete power. Fat buu and super buu are comprised of the same elements and have the same restrictions inside of them when it comes to power. The difference is nature and body. Due to the evil nature the anger to access energy is not needed. That's bit wrong. And by a bit, I mean completely, utterly, and totally wrong. - Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292)
- P2.2-6
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…” Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!” Dende: “…” Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…”
Notice how Piccolo says that his ki has changed. - Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292)
- P3.1
Goku: “…This is Majin Boo, right? This ki…what is it?...”
Goku is shocked at Evil Boo's ki. - Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P6.1-3
- P7.1-3
Context: after Gotenks blasts Boo with the Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles and Piccolo stops him Gotenks: “Well, whatever. I already did quite a lot, after all. He should be pretty weakened.” *Boo comes out* Gotenks: “…He ain’t weakened…This really pisses me off!” Piccolo: “N-no…He is weakened…I don’t know about physically, but he’s weakened a little mentally…! Th-this is the first time…that he’s fought someone strong like you…He’s feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own…” Gotenks: “Dehhehheh! So in other words, Majin Boo’s freaked out, huh!? That’s right! My strength ain’t half-assed! I’m the best in the universe!” Piccolo: “Don’t let your guard down! He’ll be coming at you frantically now…!” Gotenks: “Dahhahhah, that’s no problem, no problem at all! That’s just what I was hoping for!” Piccolo basically states that SSjin 3 Gotenks is the first person at least on par with Evil Boo. How is this possible if SSjin 3 Goku > SSjin 3 Gotenks? Furthermore, Gotenks states he is the strongest in the universe, already having sensed Goku's power before. - Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312)
- P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!” Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!” Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!” Goku himself even states that he can't win against Evil Boo. And don't even say that Goku was trying not to hurt Vegeta's feelings by not going SSjin 3: - Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316)
- P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!” Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.” Vegeta: “Eh?” Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.” Vegeta: “One minute?!” Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!” Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”
Vegeta thinks that Goku isn't going all out because he's afraid of hurting Vegeta's feelings. However, Goku flat out states that he's not holding back for Vegeta's feelings, he's holding back because he needs more time to power up. Vegeta even acknowledges this by saying "...S ...So you weren't thinking of me..." And by Goku saying he couldn't beat Evil Boo but he could beat Fat Boo, and by acknowledging that he wasn't holding back for Vegeta's sake, we basically have uncontradicted canon statements that Fat Boo < SSjin 3 Goku < Evil Boo3) Buutenks > kid buu, Buutenks > Super Buu Buutenks states this is the birth of the strongest majin. Super buu never once stated it because it would be a lie if he did. Now we know buutenks is the strongest as of now. Old kai also tells Goku that he cannot win. Buutenks never specifies how much stronger than he is than kid buu though... Gotenks-Boo has the absorption of Gotenks, which makes him so cocky. Gohan-Boo is cocky as well, due to having absorbed Gohan. Evil Boo was pretty much the strongest Boo to date, since Goku could beat Fat Boo, he beat Pure Boo, but he stated that him and Vegeta would be killed against Evil Boo. Evil Boo was the strongest Boo to date, but it wasn't in his personality to brag about it.4) Inside Super Buu Goku was microscopic This one comes down to interpretation. I will show you why mine makes sense in the longer run since we all know there is more to the manga than this. At this point in time Goku and vegeta are inside buu. They never were in this predicament before. At the time they did not know they could return to normal size. Why would they? When they were turned into candy buu had to change them back himself. This also shows the miracle of the fusion between goku and vegeta. This is why Goku wanted fusion, even as candy they were able to fight. Goku: "Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we're still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we'll definitely be done in...!" Notice the "like this" portion. Some say fusion I say size. I'm sorry, but I want to slam my face against a brick wall repeatedly. I think my IQ dropped a bit. What suggests that even if Goku thought they would still be microscopic, their,ki would be lowered? Vegetto's ki wasn't lowered when he was turned into a gumball. And he still says that he is simply no match for Evil Boo's strength. Furthermore, after getting out of Boo, he never states anything like "Thank the Kais, we're back to normal size!". He never acknowledges it. He just fused and then unfused, so what makes you think he's referring to his size when Vegetto's ki wasn't lowered when he shrunk?Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6 Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo Goku: "Alrii—iight! Come at me if you're gonna. I'll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can't open one?" Boo: "It's no use." Goku: "Don't underestimate me." *Goku blasts, not much happens* Goku: "..." Vegeta: "...It di-didn't have any effect..." Boo: "It stung a little here, that's all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas." Here Goku does not say he can kill super buu from the inside (he can;t because he knows due to his size he cannot do it) but he thinks he can at least blow a hole. But super buu makes the statement to reaffirm that they are smaller than fleas and that is why they cannot blow a hole. Vegetto's ki did not shrink when he shrunk, so what makes you think Goku was weaker from being small?5) Kid buu > Super Buu When kid buu is being born: Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5 Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form Goku: "H-hey...Vegeta...His ki is increasing, ain't it...!?" This power increase is coming all from kid buu. There is no one inside buu right now. The only one supplying the power is kid buu. There is no south kai there (south kai does not add power but more on that later). So this is all kid buu. Did you miss that part in the context?
The one where it says
"As Evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form"
Majin Boo wasn't in his pure form, he was in his South Kaioshin form.Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6 Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form Goku: "..." Vegeta: "......Heh...Heheheh...Look! He's shrunk down quite a bit!" Goku: "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something." Context: 'He's shrunk' refers to Boo's body, not his ki. Misconception is people think they laughed at his ki but it was his size they laughed at. The context written above is from the translator so no I did not add that. He is very reliable and stays neutral to power comparison, he only states what is there. If that is not enough evidence for you look at the birth of freeza's and cell's final form. There was always someone there to make fun of it. The problem is that Vegeta and Goku can sense ki. They're not dumb.Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.4-6 Vegeta: "That Boo is stronger than I imagined...And so are you, Kakarot..." Another clear indication that Vegeta underestimated Kid Buu Pure Boo wasn't really using full power when he immediately formed. Chances are, Vegeta was referring to Pure Boo's true full power, which would be around SSjin 3 Goku's power, SSjin 3 Goku's power being unable to beat Evil Boo.The kai's weakened buu. This is also stated by the manga: Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7 Kaioshin: "In m...my era there were five Kaioshins...until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created...I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries...But the other four fell to Boo...First, two were killed...the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin....And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was...somehow absorbed by Boo..... " Elder Kaioshin: ...And he became that huge Boo from before? " Kaioshin: "...Yes...Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin....The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn't handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow became controllable.... " Elder Kaioshin: "...So he was finally complete...Which is to say...that this current...small Majin Boo...is the initial...mo...most troublesome one..." Kaioshin: "....Yes...the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption(s)...has returned once again to the way it was...he has no self-control whatsoever...he has become evil itself..." Fun fact: the reason Herms put the 's' after absorption in parenthesis is because most Japanese nouns have no plural form; basically, the plural form is spelt the same as the singular form. So it's up to debate whether or not it was the absorption of both Kais, or just one Kai. What I think is that when Boo absorbs someone, he takes on their predominant trait. South Kaioshin's muscles and brute strength, Gotenks cockiness and power, Gohan's... cockiness and power (lol), and finally, Grand Kaioshin's jolliness and purity and innocence and fatness. Grand Kaioshin's traits were what weaken Boo. Sure, Gotenks and Gohan were probably pure of heart, by they weren't completely jolly, pure, innocent, and fat.The absorptions weakened him. South kai being absorbed was not enough for buu to be controllable. Only after two absorptions was buu controllable. They say dai-kaioshin was pure of heart but guess what so was Gohan. Gohan was pure of heart and was also a kind soul (he could ride kintoun) but buu got a power increase from him. This is because the kai energy itself is harmful to buu as shown by more evidence here: How could both of the absorptions of the Kais weakened Boo when South Kaioshin Boo was stated to be stronger than Evil Boo? Only Dai Kaioshin's absorption weakened Boo, because:
Dai Kaioshin was fat, meaning Fat Boo couldn't fight as well Dai Kaioshin was completely pure, jolly, and innocent, contradicting Pure Boo's persona and making it hard for him to use his full power. When Dai Kaioshin was removed from Evil Boo, he was stated to become stronger, but Boo wasn't stated to become stronger when he reverted to his pure form.Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3 Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co. Dabra: "Seems they're trying to hide from us...In total...there are 7. We can't use Kaioshin and Kibito's energy...But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy..." Babidi: "Looks like it. It seems that we'll get more than enough energy from just those 3...Kuhihihi...To think that we'd be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly..." They can't use their energy? Why? That's right because it harms buu and weakens him. Even the potara earrings, a kai artifact, stops working inside buu. Firstly, chances are that Babidi was just afraid that Boo would get weakened from them because he saw what happened with Dai Kaioshin's absorption. South Kaioshin Boo, however, was stronger than Pure Boo. Babidi didn't want to take the chance and risk Boo getting weaker again, even though South Kaioshin's absorption did in fact make Boo stronger. He probably just was taking the safe side, seeing that Dai Kaioshin weakened Boo.Kid buu also stopped the spirit bomb that had gohan and the worlds energy in it plus goku wanted gohan and gotenks to come help as in kid buu is much stronger than super buu this is why gohan and gotenks would both be needed. Firstly, there is a differentiation between Genki and Ki. Toriyama said that ki in Dragon Ball is made up from 3 parts in an interview: shouki (state of mind), genki (life energy), and yuuki (bravery). Genki just makes up one third of a person's ki. Furthermore, do you think Gohan gave all his power to the Genki Dama? If he did, he would be exhausted, and Goten and Trunks didn't fuse to give their power to the Genki Dama. So they didn't give their full genki, and genki in the first place just makes up one third of their total ki.The anime and manga also state that kid buu is the most dangerous/difficult. This is not just because he is unpredictable. People say kid buu blowing up the planet right away is why. Frieza, Cell, and Buutenks tried to blow up the planet too. Cell tried twice. Super Buu wiped out the earths population in an instant. Unpredictable is not why old kaioshin says kid buu is the most difficult. It's because kid buu > super buu and this is why it is more difficult for goku and vegeta to beat him. I've already established that anime is an official adaption of the manga, and is not canon.6) Kid Buu > Goku > Gohan Lets get the daizenshuu out of the way: Daizenshuu states: "In order to defeat Majin Buu, he had his dormant power drawn out by the Elder Kaioshin. Even without becoming a Super Saiyan, he has power surpassing Gotenks." Stronger than gotenks but NOT Goku. And as seen from previous daizenshuu quote gotenks > vegeta but not Goku and we know from piccolo's statements that Gotenks = super buu. Daizenshuu also states about Goku: "The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!" One more: Just as Goku was about to kill kid buu the daizenshuu summary states: "Goku's feelings are only understood by his fellow strongest." This solidifies Goku and kid buu as the strongest that were there. The anime: Goku when seeing Buucolo says you don't plan on beating me like that, and both in the anime and manga he says cheh I'm dissapointed. EVEN Gohan can beat you now. This gives Goku superiority. The Daizenshuu is an adaption of the anime which is an adaption of the manga. The anime is an adaption of the manga. They are official adaptions, but not canon, since they contradict the orginal manga.Now on to the manga: Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2 Context: as Goku fights pure Boo Vegeta: "Kakarot...You're incredible...I am simply no match for that Majin Boo...You're the only one capable of fighting him..." Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6 Vegeta: "Don't hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might...!" Goku: "Ye...yeah...I've been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but...I haven't gotten the chance." Vegeta: "Eh?" Goku: "If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute." Vegeta: "One minute?!" Goku: "Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. .....Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this...!" Vegeta: "...S ...So you weren't thinking of me..." Vegeta states only Goku can handle kid buu. Before someone says that is said only amongst them and it is said because Gohan is dead, guess what, Vegeta is dead too at that point. We later have Goku say he was messing around to much but both Goku and Vegeta agree that Goku BY HIMSELF at full power can defeat this buu (this buu is actually playing around). Gohan and Gotenks are dead, in some long line waiting to get their body and go to Other World. Goku was the only one at the time who could fight Pure Boo. Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4 Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs Goku: "Oh, I know! You'll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight." Vegeta: "No." This shows Goku does not believe Gohan alone could beat kid buu. We already know from the previous statement Goku believes by himself he can defeat kid buu (it doesn't matter about method) but does not believe Gohan alone could do it and instead 2 people are needed. Goku was just throwing out ideas by this point, and why would he say to resurrect Gohan and Gotenks if he could fight Pure Boo himself easily? And Vegeta said no because he didn't want them to get absorbed, after which nobody would be able to beat the new Boo.Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P8.3-4 Goku: "Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it's no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings..." Vegeta: "I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then...! It won't be just little bit. We'll gather ki from them right up to their limits!" Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1 Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama Goku: "Hey, even this probably isn't enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!" I added these because some say Gohan did not give it his all. As these quotes show Goku took the maximum amount of energy from everyone. And after getting gohan and the others ki, it was not enough. We later see kid buu even block the massive spirit bomb. People say the reason kid buu was able to block it was because Goku had no stamina. Goku says that 'those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then', referring to the humans and earthlings, not to Goten, Trunks, and Gohan. Furthermore, genki is but one third of ki, and if they really gave all of their genki, they would die. By gathering their genki 'up to their limits', that basically means, as much as the humans can give until they die. Again, there is a differentiation between genki and ki.Goku had enough stamina to keep flying. Remember namek, and the spirit bomb that was thrown at freeza? Goku couldn't even stand there and frieza could not block it. It was a matter of power and not stamina. The stamina only comes into effect when the enemy is able to block the force of the genki dama and then begins to push it back. This is what happened to kid buu. He was pushing it back all while the genki dama was pushing it with its force. Why do you think the Genki-Dama is different from any ki blast? Because it is comprised only of genki, not all three parts of ki. Pure Boo wasn't actually pushing back the combined ki of Gohan, Goten and Trunks, and other Z Fighters and humans; he was pushing a big mass of genki, and Gohan's genki would not be his full ki, and the genki he contributed would not be all his genki. Anyone who contributes all their genki would die, as they would give away their entire life force.Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P8.5-6 Context: people on Namek and in the afterlife watch Boo stall the Genki-Dama Elder Kaioshin: "Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that 'Genki-Dama' thing st-still doesn't have enough power..." Dende: "Th-that can't be...! We-we already used our ki..." Enma Daio: "Ha-hang in there, Son Goku...! Th-that Genki-Dama has power from us here in the afterlife in it too...!" They're talking about the genki dama not being strong enough. Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.6-7 Context: after one of Goku's attacks damages Boo Goku: "That bastard...Even though he can quickly return to normal, he's playing around by purposefully drawing it out..." *Boo is clearly lollygagging* This shows only up till genki dama kid buu has simply been playing around. Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P11.2-3 Context: after Polunga restores Goku's stamina and he's about to finish Boo off with the Genki-Dama Goku: "...You're amazin'. You hung in there really well...All on your own...This time, be reborn as a good guy...I wanna fight you one-on-one...I'll be waiting...And I'll have gotten much, much better...See ya later!" 10 years later: Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5 Goku: "...But someone besides us and Boo might win." Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P11.6-8 Goku: "He's the one...While I've been training on my own, I've been waiting all this time for that kid to enter the tournament...[ ] ]...10 years ago, when that outrageously bad Majin Boo died, I made a wish...That this time, he be reborn as a good guy, so we could fight one-on-one...Apparently old man Enma Daio heard me, and pulled some strings on my behalf..." 10 years later after nonstop training Goku still believes that kid buu may still win. This just goes to show that kid buu was close to the level of buutenks and was clearly stronger than Goku at the time of the kid buu arc. What? No. Vegeta and Goku both state that Goku in SSjin 3 at full power could defeat Pure Boo. Furthermore, it was an issue of stamina, not power. After Goku having his power restored by Porunga, he easily pushes the Genki Dama onto Pure Boo.7) Miscellaneous Information From daizenshuu 2, an interview with Toriyama: "Interviewer: And then the Cell arc ended. Did you think that everyone felt you would put Gohan into the leading role? Toriyama: I intended to put Gohan into the leading role. It didn't work out. I felt that compared to Goku, he was ultimately not suited for the part." Gohan was made the hero and then made Goku the hero. This was not due to fans because at the time Gohan was leading in popularity. So that is debunked right away. Quick look at Toriyama's style of writing: Piccolo saga: The hero/leading role was Goku. Goku was the strongest amongst the good guys. Saiyan Saga: The hero was Goku. Goku was the strongest amongst the good guys. Freeza Saga: The hero was Goku. Goku was the strongest amongst the good guys. Cell Saga: The hero was Gohan. Gohan was the strongest amongst the good guys. Buu Saga: The hero was Goku. ________ was the strongest amongst the good guys. If we follow the pattern the answer to the underline portion would be Goku. This is just the style of Toriyama so to say that even though Goku is the hero does not make him strongest goes against Toriyama's style of writing. You do know that Toriyama wanted to switch everything around for the Boo Saga, and try to get back to his gag roots? So it does't necessarily follow this outline.Toriyama says the anime and daizenshuu is official. Some fans say "we should keep the anime and manga separate because Goku is obviously stronger in the anime" Why should we separate it for that reason? Did Toriyama not say anime was official? Does that not mean it counts? You only want it separate because it clearly derails your interpretation. Did you consider that maybe Toriyama noticed that his manga was vague and wanted to clarify things? The daizenshuu do that too but fans claim it shouldn't be counted either. So people who have gohan > goku and super buu > goku can only rely on the manga even though Toriyama says the anime and daizenshuu are official too. People who think Goku > Gohan and kid buu > Goku > Super Buu have the manga, the anime, and the daizenshuu supporting them. Yes that is all three sources supporting them. If you're a fan of dragonball this should not anger you. You should not be discounting something entirely just because you don't like it. You could always say you wished a person was stronger. I wish Piccolo was stronger but it just did not happen. It does not take away from his badassness, he is still awesome in my books but official statements are concrete. I've already explained, anime and daizenshuu are official adaptions, not canon. Why? Because they contradict the manga. I already explained that if you counted them all as canon, you would have canon statements that contradict each other.
There you go. I will tell you that right now. Don't bother with this guy. No matter how much you tell him he just won't get it and will keep making excuses. He does it in YouTube. I already debuked him so I saved you the hard work.
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Super Vegetto
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Jun 2 2012, 08:24 PM
Post #41
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Only proof for Goku beeing strongest character :
Q: Out of all your characters, which one is the most? A: Cool: Goku "I think it's Goku." The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!
Whait i though that Coolest and pure strongest character is Super Vegetto, right ?
Btw Gohan is not fighter so no wonder he says Goku is #1 !
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+ Pyrus
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Jun 2 2012, 08:45 PM
Post #42
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- Super Vegetto
- Jun 2 2012, 08:24 PM
Only proof for Goku beeing strongest character :
Q: Out of all your characters, which one is the most? A: Cool: Goku "I think it's Goku." The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!
Whait i though that Coolest and pure strongest character is Super Vegetto, right ?
Btw Gohan is not fighter so no wonder he says Goku is #1 ! That isn't Toriyama saying Goku is the strongest. That's the interviewer. Toriyama's answer is in the quoted bit.
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pakl123456
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Jun 2 2012, 08:45 PM
Post #43
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- Super Vegetto
- Jun 2 2012, 08:24 PM
Only proof for Goku beeing strongest character :
Q: Out of all your characters, which one is the most? A: Cool: Goku "I think it's Goku." The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!
Whait i though that Coolest and pure strongest character is Super Vegetto, right ?
Btw Gohan is not fighter so no wonder he says Goku is #1 ! LOL. This guy is an idiot and Toriyama never once said so. He is twisting the facts since he is a Gokutard.
Q: Out of all your characters, which one is the most? A: Cool: Goku "I think it's Goku." The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!
Notice how Toriyama's answer is in quotes and the rest isn't? Yeah, that's for a reason, and it's because the rest isn't Toriyama's answer, it's the interviewer's.
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Super Vegetto
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Jun 2 2012, 08:51 PM
Post #44
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Toriyama Akira's Best - Character Section
Q: If you were to draw another "DragonBall", who would the protagonist be? A: Mister Satan "Mister Satan would be the one I'd want to make into the protagonist. How about a gag manga with him and Buu?" The world grappling champion Mister Satan. Debuting in the second half of the story, he's a cute character who took off on his own. It'd be nice if this gag manga were to become a reality!
Q: Who would you want as your kid? Who would want as your parent? A: As a kid: Dende "He's serious and can heal his own injuries. But he looks a little strange, so I guess he'd be picked on at school."
As a parent: Bulma "I'd be very rich, so I'd be relatively left to myself." And on top of that he'd be a genius.
Q: Who seems like they will live the longest, and who seems like they will die the earliest? A: Looks like he'll live long: Kame-sennin "It seems that he will live a surprisingly long time." He certainly seems to be the happiest character.
Looks like he'll die early: Vegeta "Everybody dies eventually, but Vegeta seems like he has high blood pressure so he'll probably go suddenly."
Q: If you were to be reincarnated, who would you want to be? A: Trunks "It'd be nice to be the Trunks who doesn't have the painful past. I'd be rich, be able to buy lots of toys, and be real strong. That's what it looks like superficially."
Q: Out of all your characters, which one is the most? A: Cool: Goku "I think it's Goku." The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!
Gourmet: Satan "I get the sense that he eats expensively. He's high-class, but an OK sort."
Shy: Piccolo "I feel that the Namekians are basically a shy race."
Fashionable: Trunks "I thought it'd be Bulma, but once she became an old lady she dresses out of fashion."
Mischievous: Kame-sennin "Of course it'd have to be this guy." Was his perverseness the deciding factor?
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pakl123456
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Jun 2 2012, 09:05 PM
Post #45
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- Super Vegetto
- Jun 2 2012, 08:51 PM
Toriyama Akira's Best - Character Section
Q: If you were to draw another "DragonBall", who would the protagonist be? A: Mister Satan "Mister Satan would be the one I'd want to make into the protagonist. How about a gag manga with him and Buu?" The world grappling champion Mister Satan. Debuting in the second half of the story, he's a cute character who took off on his own. It'd be nice if this gag manga were to become a reality!
Q: Who would you want as your kid? Who would want as your parent? A: As a kid: Dende "He's serious and can heal his own injuries. But he looks a little strange, so I guess he'd be picked on at school."
As a parent: Bulma "I'd be very rich, so I'd be relatively left to myself." And on top of that he'd be a genius.
Q: Who seems like they will live the longest, and who seems like they will die the earliest? A: Looks like he'll live long: Kame-sennin "It seems that he will live a surprisingly long time." He certainly seems to be the happiest character.
Looks like he'll die early: Vegeta "Everybody dies eventually, but Vegeta seems like he has high blood pressure so he'll probably go suddenly."
Q: If you were to be reincarnated, who would you want to be? A: Trunks "It'd be nice to be the Trunks who doesn't have the painful past. I'd be rich, be able to buy lots of toys, and be real strong. That's what it looks like superficially."
Q: Out of all your characters, which one is the most? A: Cool: Goku "I think it's Goku." The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!
Gourmet: Satan "I get the sense that he eats expensively. He's high-class, but an OK sort."
Shy: Piccolo "I feel that the Namekians are basically a shy race."
Fashionable: Trunks "I thought it'd be Bulma, but once she became an old lady she dresses out of fashion."
Mischievous: Kame-sennin "Of course it'd have to be this guy." Was his perverseness the deciding factor?
Exactly! Anyway this thread is absourd. People who say Goku>Gohan are trolls, fanboys, retarded or never read the Manga. Just saying, regardless.
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