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| SSJ3 goku > Mystic Gohan, and this is why..... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 2 2012, 05:15 PM (4,988 Views) | |
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Jun 2 2012, 05:15 PM Post #1 |
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*All credit goes to kakashiUzamaki of youtube, for putting this together. If he doesnt make a neoseeker profile then I'll be the middle man* Here are 7 Massive Points to show the validity of my interpretation. If these 7 points are not absolutely debunked then it should be clear that this interpretation holds. For all we know this may have been the interpretation the writer himself tried to express (and I believe he did have this in mind). Quick information before getting started: Validation of the manga, anime, daizenshuu: Everyone agrees the manga is valid because Toriyama worked on it himself. The anime is official too because Toriyama stated as such. Toriyama worked on the anime. It expanded his idea. The filler that you see, were Toriyama's idea. The daizenshuu is also valid and official like the anime. Toriyama approved of the daizenshuu, he worked on the daizenshuu, and says he wished he had it when making the series. It's legit. Herms: "some things in the daizenshuu were supplied directly by Toriyama: interviews, the "What I'm Up To Nowadays" comics, extra character info, comments on vehicles, the DB cosmos map, the covers and other bits of artwork, etc. Some things are said to have been "supervised" by him, whatever that means, such as the DB Earth map. Finally, the entire book series were approved by him: they're official products, have his name on the cover, his introductions to the different volumes praise the staff's work and say he wished he had the books around when creating the series, etc." One final point before we begin. I did not use any numbers in this. This is my way of showing respect to Toriyama who decided to get rid of power levels because he felt fans were obsessing over it too much when there is more to a fight than that. He removed it from his series so therefore I will not have it here. And now the 7 Points: 1) Fat Buu > Pre-Rosat Gotenks You keep saying Gotenks at ssj is powerful enough to beat fat buu which he never was. I don't have to post that part where gotenks got his ***** kicked. Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5 Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans Gotenks: "Hehhehheh...Aren't you underestimating me? Like this, I'm more than enough to defeat Majin Boo." Piccolo: "Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don't know anything about Majin Boo's fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there's still absolutely no way you'd be able to win!" Also we never once have Piccolo tell Gotenks to go fight buu at ssj. Goku took a gamble with the kids and told this truth to Piccolo in secret Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8, P11.1-3 Piccolo: "...Probably? Knowing you, why didn't you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy...?" Goku: "No...I'm no longer a human who's particularly even supposed to be here...I shouldn't be the one to do it. It'd be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another...After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? ...It's a nasty gamble, but...Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble..." The daizenshuu states: "The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta " So that means Gotenks was weaker than vegeta pre rosat and is only stronger than him post rosat. They don't say Goku. Which leads to base vegeta > base gotenks BUT ssj2 vegeta < ssj3 gotenks. The anime: When kaioshin asks Goku if gotenks is stronger than him Goku goes eeeeeh I can do it too and then changes the topic. 2) Fat Buu = Super Buu We know fat buu can get stronger as he gets angrier. This is evident in multiple cases such as Vegeta making him angry. Steam erupts from his head. The greater the anger the greater the strength. So fat buu's maximum power is not felt. Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P2.3 Narrator: "Due to his strong anger, the evil portion that Majin Boo had kept inside himself greatly swelled up and became another Majin Boo, who came flying out...In other words, he was divided into a pure evil Majin Boo and an innocent Majin Boo..." Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4 Context: as the two Boos fight Narrator: "The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one..." These 2 quotes show that when fat buu split into good and evil most of the fat buu's power went to the evil one. The evil one then ate the good one and regained his power. This results in his powers being returned to the state of fat buu. But now the evil side is dominant which leads to complete access to the powers fat buu could only achieve through rage (this is a restricted max of kid buu but more on that later). Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6 Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo Piccolo: "...Have you noticed? ...This change in Majin Boo's ki...[ ] ...He's changed...All due to some idiotic Earthlings...He's become pure evil, and his body had become more suited toward battle...Th-this...this..." Kuririn: "Wha...What?...D-don't tell me you're saying this is bad!? ...It's al-alright! We've got the squirts' Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest...!" Dende: "..." Piccolo: "...That'd be nice, but..." Piccolo states that this buu is evil and has a better built body. Piccolo says this buu is greater in all aspects which works fine with this interpreation because like I said super buu can access the complete power. Fat buu and super buu are comprised of the same elements and have the same restrictions inside of them when it comes to power. The difference is nature and body. Due to the evil nature the anger to access energy is not needed. 3) Buutenks > kid buu, Buutenks > Super Buu Buutenks states this is the birth of the strongest majin. Super buu never once stated it because it would be a lie if he did. Now we know buutenks is the strongest as of now. Old kai also tells Goku that he cannot win. Buutenks never specifies how much stronger than he is than kid buu though... 4) Inside Super Buu Goku was microscopic This one comes down to interpretation. I will show you why mine makes sense in the longer run since we all know there is more to the manga than this. At this point in time Goku and vegeta are inside buu. They never were in this predicament before. At the time they did not know they could return to normal size. Why would they? When they were turned into candy buu had to change them back himself. This also shows the miracle of the fusion between goku and vegeta. This is why Goku wanted fusion, even as candy they were able to fight. Goku: "Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we're still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we'll definitely be done in...!" Notice the "like this" portion. Some say fusion I say size. Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6 Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo Goku: "Alrii—iight! Come at me if you're gonna. I'll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can't open one?" Boo: "It's no use." Goku: "Don't underestimate me." *Goku blasts, not much happens* Goku: "..." Vegeta: "...It di-didn't have any effect..." Boo: "It stung a little here, that's all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas." Here Goku does not say he can kill super buu from the inside (he can;t because he knows due to his size he cannot do it) but he thinks he can at least blow a hole. But super buu makes the statement to reaffirm that they are smaller than fleas and that is why they cannot blow a hole. 5) Kid buu > Super Buu When kid buu is being born: Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5 Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form Goku: "H-hey...Vegeta...His ki is increasing, ain't it...!?" This power increase is coming all from kid buu. There is no one inside buu right now. The only one supplying the power is kid buu. There is no south kai there (south kai does not add power but more on that later). So this is all kid buu. Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6 Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form Goku: "..." Vegeta: "......Heh...Heheheh...Look! He's shrunk down quite a bit!" Goku: "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something." Context: 'He's shrunk' refers to Boo's body, not his ki. Misconception is people think they laughed at his ki but it was his size they laughed at. The context written above is from the translator so no I did not add that. He is very reliable and stays neutral to power comparison, he only states what is there. If that is not enough evidence for you look at the birth of freeza's and cell's final form. There was always someone there to make fun of it. Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.4-6 Vegeta: "That Boo is stronger than I imagined...And so are you, Kakarot..." Another clear indication that Vegeta underestimated Kid Buu The kai's weakened buu. This is also stated by the manga: Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7 Kaioshin: "In m...my era there were five Kaioshins...until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created...I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries...But the other four fell to Boo...First, two were killed...the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin....And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was...somehow absorbed by Boo..... " Elder Kaioshin: ...And he became that huge Boo from before? " Kaioshin: "...Yes...Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin....The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn't handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow became controllable.... " Elder Kaioshin: "...So he was finally complete...Which is to say...that this current...small Majin Boo...is the initial...mo...most troublesome one..." Kaioshin: "....Yes...the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption The absorptions weakened him. South kai being absorbed was not enough for buu to be controllable. Only after two absorptions was buu controllable. They say dai-kaioshin was pure of heart but guess what so was Gohan. Gohan was pure of heart and was also a kind soul (he could ride kintoun) but buu got a power increase from him. This is because the kai energy itself is harmful to buu as shown by more evidence here: Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3 Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co. Dabra: "Seems they're trying to hide from us...In total...there are 7. We can't use Kaioshin and Kibito's energy...But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy..." Babidi: "Looks like it. It seems that we'll get more than enough energy from just those 3...Kuhihihi...To think that we'd be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly..." They can't use their energy? Why? That's right because it harms buu and weakens him. Even the potara earrings, a kai artifact, stops working inside buu. Kid buu also stopped the spirit bomb that had gohan and the worlds energy in it plus goku wanted gohan and gotenks to come help as in kid buu is much stronger than super buu this is why gohan and gotenks would both be needed. The anime and manga also state that kid buu is the most dangerous/difficult. This is not just because he is unpredictable. People say kid buu blowing up the planet right away is why. Frieza, Cell, and Buutenks tried to blow up the planet too. Cell tried twice. Super Buu wiped out the earths population in an instant. Unpredictable is not why old kaioshin says kid buu is the most difficult. It's because kid buu > super buu and this is why it is more difficult for goku and vegeta to beat him. 6) Kid Buu > Goku > Gohan Lets get the daizenshuu out of the way: Daizenshuu states: "In order to defeat Majin Buu, he had his dormant power drawn out by the Elder Kaioshin. Even without becoming a Super Saiyan, he has power surpassing Gotenks." Stronger than gotenks but NOT Goku. And as seen from previous daizenshuu quote gotenks > vegeta but not Goku and we know from piccolo's statements that Gotenks = super buu. Daizenshuu also states about Goku: "The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!" One more: Just as Goku was about to kill kid buu the daizenshuu summary states: "Goku's feelings are only understood by his fellow strongest." This solidifies Goku and kid buu as the strongest that were there. The anime: Goku when seeing Buucolo says you don't plan on beating me like that, and both in the anime and manga he says cheh I'm dissapointed. EVEN Gohan can beat you now. This gives Goku superiority. Now on to the manga: Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2 Context: as Goku fights pure Boo Vegeta: "Kakarot...You're incredible...I am simply no match for that Majin Boo...You're the only one capable of fighting him..." Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6 Vegeta: "Don't hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might...!" Goku: "Ye...yeah...I've been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but...I haven't gotten the chance." Vegeta: "Eh?" Goku: "If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute." Vegeta: "One minute?!" Goku: "Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. .....Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this...!" Vegeta: "...S ...So you weren't thinking of me..." Vegeta states only Goku can handle kid buu. Before someone says that is said only amongst them and it is said because Gohan is dead, guess what, Vegeta is dead too at that point. We later have Goku say he was messing around to much but both Goku and Vegeta agree that Goku BY HIMSELF at full power can defeat this buu (this buu is actually playing around). Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4 Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs Goku: "Oh, I know! You'll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight." Vegeta: "No." This shows Goku does not believe Gohan alone could beat kid buu. We already know from the previous statement Goku believes by himself he can defeat kid buu (it doesn't matter about method) but does not believe Gohan alone could do it and instead 2 people are needed. Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P8.3-4 Goku: "Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it's no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings..." Vegeta: "I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then...! It won't be just little bit. We'll gather ki from them right up to their limits!" Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1 Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama Goku: "Hey, even this probably isn't enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!" I added these because some say Gohan did not give it his all. As these quotes show Goku took the maximum amount of energy from everyone. And after getting gohan and the others ki, it was not enough. We later see kid buu even block the massive spirit bomb. People say the reason kid buu was able to block it was because Goku had no stamina. Goku had enough stamina to keep flying. Remember namek, and the spirit bomb that was thrown at freeza? Goku couldn't even stand there and frieza could not block it. It was a matter of power and not stamina. The stamina only comes into effect when the enemy is able to block the force of the genki dama and then begins to push it back. This is what happened to kid buu. He was pushing it back all while the genki dama was pushing it with its force. Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P8.5-6 Context: people on Namek and in the afterlife watch Boo stall the Genki-Dama Elder Kaioshin: "Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that 'Genki-Dama' thing st-still doesn't have enough power..." Dende: "Th-that can't be...! We-we already used our ki..." Enma Daio: "Ha-hang in there, Son Goku...! Th-that Genki-Dama has power from us here in the afterlife in it too...!" They're talking about the genki dama not being strong enough. Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.6-7 Context: after one of Goku's attacks damages Boo Goku: "That bastard...Even though he can quickly return to normal, he's playing around by purposefully drawing it out..." *Boo is clearly lollygagging* This shows only up till genki dama kid buu has simply been playing around. Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P11.2-3 Context: after Polunga restores Goku's stamina and he's about to finish Boo off with the Genki-Dama Goku: "...You're amazin'. You hung in there really well...All on your own...This time, be reborn as a good guy...I wanna fight you one-on-one...I'll be waiting...And I'll have gotten much, much better...See ya later!" 10 years later: Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5 Goku: "...But someone besides us and Boo might win." Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P11.6-8 Goku: "He's the one...While I've been training on my own, I've been waiting all this time for that kid to enter the tournament...[ ] ]...10 years ago, when that outrageously bad Majin Boo died, I made a wish...That this time, he be reborn as a good guy, so we could fight one-on-one...Apparently old man Enma Daio heard me, and pulled some strings on my behalf..." 10 years later after nonstop training Goku still believes that kid buu may still win. This just goes to show that kid buu was close to the level of buutenks and was clearly stronger than Goku at the time of the kid buu arc. 7) Miscellaneous Information From daizenshuu 2, an interview with Toriyama: "Interviewer: And then the Cell arc ended. Did you think that everyone felt you would put Gohan into the leading role? Toriyama: I intended to put Gohan into the leading role. It didn't work out. I felt that compared to Goku, he was ultimately not suited for the part." Gohan was made the hero and then made Goku the hero. This was not due to fans because at the time Gohan was leading in popularity. So that is debunked right away. Quick look at Toriyama's style of writing: Piccolo saga: The hero/leading role was Goku. Goku was the strongest amongst the good guys. Saiyan Saga: The hero was Goku. Goku was the strongest amongst the good guys. Freeza Saga: The hero was Goku. Goku was the strongest amongst the good guys. Cell Saga: The hero was Gohan. Gohan was the strongest amongst the good guys. Buu Saga: The hero was Goku. ________ was the strongest amongst the good guys. If we follow the pattern the answer to the underline portion would be Goku. This is just the style of Toriyama so to say that even though Goku is the hero does not make him strongest goes against Toriyama's style of writing. Toriyama says the anime and daizenshuu is official. Some fans say "we should keep the anime and manga separate because Goku is obviously stronger in the anime" Why should we separate it for that reason? Did Toriyama not say anime was official? Does that not mean it counts? You only want it separate because it clearly derails your interpretation. Did you consider that maybe Toriyama noticed that his manga was vague and wanted to clarify things? The daizenshuu do that too but fans claim it shouldn't be counted either. So people who have gohan > goku and super buu > goku can only rely on the manga even though Toriyama says the anime and daizenshuu are official too. People who think Goku > Gohan and kid buu > Goku > Super Buu have the manga, the anime, and the daizenshuu supporting them. Yes that is all three sources supporting them. If you're a fan of dragonball this should not anger you. You should not be discounting something entirely just because you don't like it. You could always say you wished a person was stronger. I wish Piccolo was stronger but it just did not happen. It does not take away from his badassness, he is still awesome in my books but official statements are concrete. |
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Jun 2 2012, 05:18 PM Post #2 |
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LOL. How did you arrive here??? Your "facts" are rediculous as hell. I'm not even going to take all the time to debunk every one of those statements, although I'm sure some one like Son Gohan or Super Vegetto will come and do us a favor by doing it though |
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Jun 2 2012, 05:21 PM Post #3 |
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No. |
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| Ryuuzaki | Jun 2 2012, 05:23 PM Post #4 |
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SSJ3 Goku isn't stronger than Mystic Gohan. If you read the manga and say the same thing you don't know nothing about DBZ.
Edited by Ryuuzaki, Jun 2 2012, 05:26 PM.
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Jun 2 2012, 05:25 PM Post #5 |
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My interpretation proves otherwise. If my points are not absolutely debunked so this interpretation holds and still valid. I used the Manga as evidence. |
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Jun 2 2012, 05:26 PM Post #6 |
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He said the anime is official because Toriyama helped work on it. No. |
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| Ryuuzaki | Jun 2 2012, 05:29 PM Post #7 |
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It's very simple to prove Goku SSJ3 isn't stronger than Mystic Gohan. SSJ Gotenks Pre > Goku SSJ3 , Goku said that , than Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre , started by Piccolo and next is very clearly. I have : Mystic Gohan 52.000 Goku SSJ3 280 Pal , maybe you are Goku fanboy but don't be so desperate. |
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Jun 2 2012, 05:34 PM Post #8 |
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Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Goku ; end of story. Only a delusional fanboy would warp the Herms translation into proving otherwise. |
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| HersheyDux | Jun 2 2012, 05:39 PM Post #9 |
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Prince of all Chewing Gum
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Ooh, I can already tell where this thread is going....prepare for all hell, people |
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Jun 2 2012, 05:39 PM Post #10 |
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Toriyama: “Dragon Ball, it's the anime and the manga!” The author thinks it is. |
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Jun 2 2012, 05:41 PM Post #11 |
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I already adressed it in my big post. Goku said he was taking Gotenks a nasty ganble so he was not sure he can win. |
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| HersheyDux | Jun 2 2012, 05:42 PM Post #12 |
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Prince of all Chewing Gum
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Even so, Goku knew and pretty much flat out stated/implied that Gotenks had a far greater chance of beating Buu then himself. |
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Jun 2 2012, 05:43 PM Post #13 |
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*Sigh* This is right on. And the anime is not official. It's not canon. |
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Jun 2 2012, 05:43 PM Post #14 |
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This site is not like Neoseeker when people kicked your *****. So they won't debate you and kick your ***** like Neoseeker did so I am forced to do it.
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| + Pyrus | Jun 2 2012, 05:44 PM Post #15 |
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This is blatant flame baiting. We should just ignore this guy. It's obvious what he's trying to do. |
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