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Why Gohan was a SSJ vs Dabura
Topic Started: May 25 2012, 01:28 PM (35,121 Views)
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Hey I have an idea. Let's let the SSj2 believers think Gohan was a SSj2, and the MSSj believers think Gohan was a MSSj!

Oh wait I forgot, the DBZ fanbase isn't that nice.
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Copy_Ninja
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Novacane for the pain

I just put him as SSJ2 now because it's easier. I think AT wanted to make Gohan look weak and unimpressive, which is why his aura is different and there's no lightning. Plus, I don't see why Gohan would bother staying as SSJ when he was struggling, he'd just powerup further and finish it. Also, Goku would have said something to Vegeta about Gohan holding back a whole other form when he was defending his son's performance. This doesn't matter too much in the grand scheme of thing either, the only person it impacts is Dabura's strength.

Also, wrong section again......

@TGZ: Obviously, apparently everything is serious business when you're on the internet.
Edited by Copy_Ninja, May 25 2012, 03:32 PM.
Posted ImageWe'll never be those kids again
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GridZero
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This guy's opinion obviously isn't going to be changed on the matter, so it's useless to keep posting.
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Super Vegetto
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As for my view on this debate, I don't think Toriyama not giving SSJ2 Gohan lightning later on was meant to be taken as an "accident" or a "mistake". I think it was done purposely to represent the power difference between Gohan's SSJ2 with Goku & Vegeta's. Since he's shown that when a SSJ2 is at a lower level of power they're drawn with a weaker aura, and conversely, at a higher level of power, they have a stronger aura with added lightning bolts. It's not so different from how the previous SSJ had different auras depending on their power output.

To be honest, I don't think Toriyama originally intended to draw SSj2 Gohan in a stronger aura with lightning for that arc, since he doesn't include it during Videl's match. I think he made the exception against Kibito because the importance of the scene warranted his Ki to be embellished for dramatic effect.

Gohans concept art is 1 bang SSJ2, 2 bangs SSJ.

You cant change concpet by will. Thing here is that Gohan always had 2 bangs in base which means 2 bangs with gold hair is SSJ.

The point in the Buu arc where SSj2 Gohan's power was probably at its highest was here, when he's clearly giving it his all:

Posted Image

After that Kaioshin is confident in Gohan to relise Z sword. He even made statment that Gohan that he saw > Gohan that Kibito saw in powers.


Unless you still think that lightning is important factor than you get : SSJ2 Nappa, SSJ2 Vegeta before going SSJ2 against SSJ2 Goku, SSJ2 Perfect Cell, SSJ2 Vegetto.

This one is clearly proof of weak SSJ2. Btw like i already sad Gohan neaded to look diffrent compered to those 2.

Posted Image

Gohan in the Buu arc is a special case, since he is the only one to have neglected his training all those years which detrimented him greatly. Therefore, it wouldn't be sensible to view him as some equivalent with Goku and Vegeta.
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pakl123456
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Teen GohanZ
May 25 2012, 03:19 PM
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There is no proof Gohan was SSJ2. Dabura said he can easily beat Gohan and that he is trash which means Dabura was much stronger than Gohan and was just toying with him and if Gohan was a SSJ2 so Dabura is at least close to SSJ2 Goku and he is way weaker. That proves Gohan was a SSJ. He had no lightening and any SSJ2 has lightening.

Well there is some evidence, that I posted. Also what? Dabura doesn't have to be close to SSj2 Goku at all, you're using your own powers here as a way of proving which form Gohan was in.

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The length of the bang doesn't prove which form Gohan used. The only time that the Gohan's hair was the factor for his form was in the Great Saiyaman Saga when Gohan had 2 bangs stand as a SSJ and one bang stans as a SSJ2. In the World Tourment Saga Gohan's hair was the same as a SSJ or SSJ2, one bang stands.

The bang is shorter in MSSj (Shown at the tournament when Videl is getting beat and when he is pulling the Z sword out). The SSj2 bang is always long.

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So what? Gohan held back and never unleashed his full power when Cell almost killed him. Gohan stopped Dabura's sword as a SSJ and never went SSJ2 since he was not angry enough.

Gohan was using his full power agaisnt Cell, he just didn't finish the fight quickly. Also the anger thing is addressed later.

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Gohan also was weaker as a SSJ. Vegeta said he would beat Dabura and Goku never contradicted him. Remember Goku doesn't know Vegeta has SSJ2.

I already addressed this point...

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When Goku says "get mad Gohan" He can mean that Gohan needs to get mad so he can go SSJ2. In the Manga Gohan's full power is his SSJ2 so Goku basically told him to use full power (SSJ2)

That's your own personal opinion, it's not evidence of anything. I think he means get mad to get the rage boost, not turn SSj2.

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Kaioshin was surprised about Base Vegeta's ki, why if he already saw SSJ2 Gohan? Kaioshin could of meant to the fact that they easily beat Babidi's henchmen and to their combat skills or about Gohan's anger. Besides if Gohan was using the same SSJ2 he showed Kibito why would Kaioshin say that anyway? Your point is moot.

Because Vegeta's base Ki was powerful, and Kaioshin knew he could transform and get stronger. He didn't say to Kibito "Base Vegeta was amazing!" but he did say "Gohan was so amazing! You couldn't imagine/You didn't see". Kibito has seen SSj2 Gohan, so saying Kibito couldn't imagine/hasn't seen MSSJ Gohan's power is kinda weird. I think Kaioshin said it because Gohan was stronger than he was at the tournament, either he was using his full power now or he had a slight anger boost (He did say he was a little mad, just not as much as he was agaisnt Cell).

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How if he didn't get angry at all?? Besides he could of meant to the fact that they were very powerful in their base forms and that they easily beat Babidi's henchmen. He talked about Goku and Vegeta as well, not only Gohan. He also talked about Gohan's anger vaguely.



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He is confident about his SSJ speed and? How does it prove he as a SSJ2?

Already mentioned it in my first post...

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Dabura was toying with Gohan and said he was trash. Goku could of meant to the Cell he fought and Gohan was also losing and was barely able to put a fight, this is why he heavily breathed after the fight was over. Why do you think Vegeta was so mad? If Gohan was a SSJ2 so Dabura has to be at least SSJ2 Goku's level since he said Gohan was trash and can easily beat him but we know Dabura is way weaker than SSJ2 Goku so Dabura said Gohan was trash and he can easily beat him (which proves Dabura was much stronger than Gohan) because Gohan was a SSJ.

Dabura was hardly "toying" with him, not only had he been given direct orders from Babidi to collect as much energy as possible but he was trying to kill Gohan. Also here you go again with "Dabura has to be at least SSj2 Goku's level", that's not true at all.

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I am not sure. Please explain. Besides Gohan slacked off for 7 years so he probably had no control about his power or his fighting sense as MSSJ.

Explain what? I already explained my points.

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LOL. If anything Daizenshuu 7 is the Daiz with the most errors.

Nah, Daiz 2 has more.

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He underestimated him based on his appearance. Besides Buu only releaved his true power when he gave that evil look.

He specifically mentioned Buu's lack of power, so no he wasn't basing solely on appearance.

Quote:
 
Look at his expressions when he went SSJ2. He had an enraged expression. He never mastered the form after the Cell Games and also required it woth huge rage.

Lots of people have that serious face when they transform, doesn't mean they're all mad. Goten had a serious face when he turned MSSj for Gohan.

Quote:
 
SSJ2 Vegeta is a bit stronger than SSJ2 Kid Gohan and SPC, so his SSJ form is a bit stronger than SSJ Kid Gohan.

Did you purpsley ignore the fact I said I think Gohan had a rage boost agaisnt Cell?

Quote:
 
Wrong! Herma claim Gohan meant to the SSJ2 form so hence Herms even shows Gohan was a SSJ vs Dabura. Gohan talked about the SSJ2 level not about the power. He said the power of the SSJ2 level. Dabura was much stronger than Gohan so if Gohan was a SSJ2, Dabura is at least close to SSJ2 Goku but he is not since he barely inflicted any damage to the cacoon since they were not SSJ2 level. Gohan was a SSJ. it's a Manga fact supported by Herms (the most realible translation).

Herms didn't make DBZ, he just translated it. He might translate it but he doesn't have the final say in things like these, that's just his opinion. Also he didn't say Gohan meant SSj2 form, I saw the quote, he said "If-if two incredible powers like that clash"
The two incredible powers being SSJ2 Vegeta and Goku.


Quote:
 
I already proved he was a SSJ. It's a Manga fact. Every SSJ2 has lightening and Gohan never did.

You didn't prove anything. Stop pretending your opinion is a fact.

" Dabura doesn't have to be close to SSj2 Goku at all, you're using your own powers here as a way of proving which form Gohan was in."

i am not using my own powers.
Dabura sad Gohan was trash and he can easily beat him. Hell, Gohan couldn't even touch Dabura during the fight and Dabura even said he can easily beat Gohan and said he was trash. That means Dabura is at least close to SSJ2 Goku but he is not since Gohan was a SSJ.

I have never paid attention, AT anyway drew SSJ and SSJ2 Gohan's hair as the same with 1 bang and Gohan was a SSJ when he pulled out the Z sword.

"Gohan was using his full power agaisnt Cell, he just didn't finish the fight quickly. Also the anger thing is addressed later."

Wrong!!! Goku said he held back and never released his full potential So he did the same against Dabura.

"I already addressed this point..."

How? Goku never knew Vegeta go SSJ2 so he never contradcited Vegeta about his SSJ form being able to beat Dabura. This is clear indication Gohan used SSJ.

"That's your own personal opinion, it's not evidence of anything. I think he means get mad to get the rage boost, not turn SSj2."

This is also your opinion as well. Again Gohan's fullpower is his SSJ2 form. Goku even told Gohan. "Remember how you fought Cell and released all of your power" "all of your power" means full power which is Gohan;s SSJ2 IMO.

"Because Vegeta's base Ki was powerful, and Kaioshin knew he could transform and get stronger. He didn't say to Kibito "Base Vegeta was amazing!" but he did say "Gohan was so amazing! You couldn't imagine/You didn't see". Kibito has seen SSj2 Gohan, so saying Kibito couldn't imagine/hasn't seen MSSJ Gohan's power is kinda weird. I think Kaioshin said it because Gohan was stronger than he was at the tournament, either he was using his full power now or he had a slight anger boost (He did say he was a little mad, just not as much as he was agaisnt Cell)."

But Gohan was said to not get mad enough so even if he was SSJ2 it's the same SS2 who Kibito saw so why can't he imagine it if he already saw him. Kaioshin probably meant that he didn't see them fighting Babidi's henchmen and doesn't know Gohan's anger. That doesn't mean that he meant Gohan was stronger since he was not even angry enough so even if he was SSJ2 (he was not) he was the same Gohan who Kibito saw so this point is once again baseless.

"because he got angry he flat ou said he did"

He said he was angry but not enough which means he was as angry as he was in the world tourment if not less.

"Dabura was hardly "toying" with him, not only had he been given direct orders from Babidi to collect as much energy as possible but he was trying to kill Gohan. Also here you go again with "Dabura has to be at least SSj2 Goku's level", that's not true at all."

Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3
Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?”
Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”

Dabura said he is trash and can easily beat him based on the fight they had. He was toying with Gohan. Gohan was unable to touch him. If Gohan was not losing so why was Vegeta so mad? I say he ahs to be at least close to SSJ2 Goku since Dabura said Gohan was trash and can easily beat him implying he was much stronger than Gohan.


"Nah, Daiz 2 has more."

I showed you the flaws and you don't, therefore my point still holds unless you can show me some flaws in Daiz 2 which surpass the flaws of Daiz 7

"He specifically mentioned Buu's lack of power, so no he wasn't basing solely on appearance."

He said that before Buu gave that evil look. Dabura is also cocky.

"Lots of people have that serious face when they transform, doesn't mean they're all mad. Goten had a serious face when he turned MSSj for Gohan."

But Gohan was shown angrier and also took him some time to transform. How can Goten be MSSJ if the only training he had is kicking Chi Chi?

"Did you purpsley ignore the fact I said I think Gohan had a rage boost agaisnt Cell?"

Of course he had a rage boots when he killed Cell. Did you say it? Sorry I don't remember, I will check it out.

"Herms didn't make DBZ, he just translated it. He might translate it but he doesn't have the final say in things like these, that's just his opinion. Also he didn't say Gohan meant SSj2 form, I saw the quote, he said "If-if two incredible powers like that clash"
The two incredible powers being SSJ2 Vegeta and Goku."

Herms is realible. and whenGohan said "If-if two incredible powers like that clash" he meant to the SSJ2 since he evn said "father and Vegeta are fighting at the level that surppas SSJ" Dabura was much stronger than Gohan but they barely inflicted any damage to Buu's cacoon. If Dabura is SSJ2 level and can easily beat SSJ2 Gohan so how come he can't even ifnlict any damage to Buu's cacoon??

"You didn't prove anything. Stop pretending your opinion is a fact."

How is it an opinion if I used the Manga???
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pakl123456
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GridZero
May 25 2012, 03:27 PM
You're grasping at straws now. Just because it has some errors doesn't mean you can discredit the entire thing.

And Daizenshuu 2 doesn't even list Kibito vs. Gohan as a battle.

"And Daizenshuu 2 doesn't even list Kibito vs. Gohan as a battle."

It still says Gohan only went SSJ2 in the World Tourment. So the Daiz is unrealible, it contradicts the Manga and also contradicts itself.
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pakl123456
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Copy_Ninja
May 25 2012, 03:30 PM
I just put him as SSJ2 now because it's easier. I think AT wanted to make Gohan look weak and unimpressive, which is why his aura is different and there's no lightning. Plus, I don't see why Gohan would bother staying as SSJ when he was struggling, he'd just powerup further and finish it. Also, Goku would have said something to Vegeta about Gohan holding back a whole other form when he was defending his son's performance. This doesn't matter too much in the grand scheme of thing either, the only person it impacts is Dabura's strength.

Also, wrong section again......

@TGZ: Obviously, apparently everything is serious business when you're on the internet.
" I think AT wanted to make Gohan look weak and unimpressive, which is why his aura is different and there's no lightning."

So why did he have lightening vs Kibito??

" Plus, I don't see why Gohan would bother staying as SSJ when he was struggling, he'd just powerup further and finish it. Also, Goku would have said something to Vegeta about Gohan holding back a whole other form when he was defending his son's performance."

He was not angry enough and Goku told Gohan that he held back before he went with Kaioshin to Buu's shell and told him to get angry so he can go SSJ2. Gohan had no lightening when he released the Z sword as well. He was a SSJ. If he was a SSJ2 so why did Dabura (who said Gohan is trash and can easily beat him implying he is much stronger than Gohan) barely inflicted any damage to Buu's shell??? That proves Dabura was not SSJ2. It's a Manga fact and Goku explained the diffrence between SSJ2 to SSJ for Buu, yet people still argue over it.
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pakl123456
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GridZero
May 25 2012, 03:31 PM
This guy's opinion obviously isn't going to be changed on the matter, so it's useless to keep posting.
I already posted facts from the Manga which prove he was a SSJ besides there is no proof he was a SSJ2. Goku already explained the diffrence between SSJ to SSJ2 to Buu. He had no lightening so he is not SSJ2.
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pakl123456
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Super Vegetto
May 25 2012, 03:50 PM
As for my view on this debate, I don't think Toriyama not giving SSJ2 Gohan lightning later on was meant to be taken as an "accident" or a "mistake". I think it was done purposely to represent the power difference between Gohan's SSJ2 with Goku & Vegeta's. Since he's shown that when a SSJ2 is at a lower level of power they're drawn with a weaker aura, and conversely, at a higher level of power, they have a stronger aura with added lightning bolts. It's not so different from how the previous SSJ had different auras depending on their power output.

To be honest, I don't think Toriyama originally intended to draw SSj2 Gohan in a stronger aura with lightning for that arc, since he doesn't include it during Videl's match. I think he made the exception against Kibito because the importance of the scene warranted his Ki to be embellished for dramatic effect.

Gohans concept art is 1 bang SSJ2, 2 bangs SSJ.

You cant change concpet by will. Thing here is that Gohan always had 2 bangs in base which means 2 bangs with gold hair is SSJ.

The point in the Buu arc where SSj2 Gohan's power was probably at its highest was here, when he's clearly giving it his all:

Posted Image

After that Kaioshin is confident in Gohan to relise Z sword. He even made statment that Gohan that he saw > Gohan that Kibito saw in powers.


Unless you still think that lightning is important factor than you get : SSJ2 Nappa, SSJ2 Vegeta before going SSJ2 against SSJ2 Goku, SSJ2 Perfect Cell, SSJ2 Vegetto.

This one is clearly proof of weak SSJ2. Btw like i already sad Gohan neaded to look diffrent compered to those 2.

Posted Image

Gohan in the Buu arc is a special case, since he is the only one to have neglected his training all those years which detrimented him greatly. Therefore, it wouldn't be sensible to view him as some equivalent with Goku and Vegeta.
"To be honest, I don't think Toriyama originally intended to draw SSj2 Gohan in a stronger aura with lightning for that arc, since he doesn't include it during Videl's match. I think he made the exception against Kibito because the importance of the scene warranted his Ki to be embellished for dramatic effect."

This is actually true in the Anime not Manga. AT is not Toei.

And having no lightening because Gohan got weaker is a fan theory based on nothing

"Gohans concept art is 1 bang SSJ2, 2 bangs SSJ."

I already explained in my post that AT drew Gohan as a SSJ and SSJ2 with one bang stand during the time of the world tourment. Gohan had no lightening and had no SSJ2 aura as well. He had a SSJ aura. Vegeta had no lightening because he was weakened fron the fight and was powered down, also I hate when people say Gohan was WEAK, he was not weak, he was just weaker than 7 years before. Vegeta had no lightening because he was weakened from the fight and powered down. Gohan was at full power and just fine when he began to fight Dabura yet he had SSJ aura and had no lightening hence he was a SSJ.
Edited by pakl123456, May 25 2012, 04:09 PM.
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Super Vegetto
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Lightning is important factor for SSJ2 ? So you whant to say that Gohan movie 10 was actualy SSJ ?

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Posted Image

Daizenshuu says that he is SSJ2. So concpet art is wrong or ?
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pakl123456
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Super Vegetto
May 25 2012, 04:13 PM
Lightning is important factor for SSJ2 ? So you whant to say that Gohan movie 10 was actualy SSJ ?

Posted Image

Posted Image

Daizenshuu says that he is SSJ2. So concpet art is wrong or ?
Anime is not Manga and of course Gohan was a SSJ2 vs Broly. I even made a thread proving it. Anime neglects the lightening but the Manga doesn't. For example SSJ2 Vegeta had no lightening vs Kid Buu but he did have in the Manga since every SSJ2 has lightening in the Manga. Using non canon is baseless.
In Anime you can be SSJ2 without lightening since you have pale skin. spikier hair and abadass look. Gohan never had that look nor pale skin when he fought Dabura not even in the Anime.

Gohan was a SSJ in the Manga when he battled the Demon King=FACT!!!!
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Super Vegetto
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Man it doesnt matter if its animated. Concept art for SSJ2 Gohan doesnt have lightning. By your theory Gohan in movie 10 is not SSJ2 because he doesnt have lighning. Even if its anime concpet art doesnt show SSJ2 lightning.
Edited by Super Vegetto, May 25 2012, 04:20 PM.
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+ Clearin
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It's more of an opinion than a fact. You can think that if you want, I don't have a problem with it.
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pakl123456
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Super Vegetto
May 25 2012, 04:20 PM
Man it doesnt matter if its animated. Concept art for SSJ2 Gohan doesnt have lightning. By your theory Gohan in movie 10 is not SSJ2 because he doesnt have lighning. Even if its anime concpet art doesnt show SSJ2 lightning.
Toei is not AT. In the Anime the lightening are not necessary sometimes. Movies 10,12 and 13 and the fight ith Buu. All of that eevents in the Anime show no lightening since toei neglects it. In the Anime you can have pale skin and spikier hair and a badass look and you are a SSJ2. Gohan had no one of those signs not even when he fought Dabura in the Anime. Every SSJ2 has lightening in the Manga and Gohan didn't because he was a SSJ. I can't understand why do you insist he was a SSJ2 if there is no fact for it and The Manga even shows all the facts to prove he was a SSJ including the deign which is the last word.
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pakl123456
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Teen GohanZ
May 25 2012, 04:21 PM
It's more of an opinion than a fact. You can think that if you want, I don't have a problem with it.
Hmm, The Manga supports he was a SSJ according to his design so it's kind of more fact than an opinion. I just go according to the Manga and what it shows, and it showed Gohan was designed as a SSJ when he fought Dabura.
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