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Limits In DBZ
Topic Started: Apr 13 2012, 02:34 AM (636 Views)
NavonWise
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There is always that debate, "DBZ characters can never stop getting stronger". While reading my manga, during the Cell saga I realized Vegeta and Goku most of the time mentioning their limits. When we first see Vegeta go SSJ, he talks about how he reached a wall he couldn't pass, he reached his limit. He got angry and achieved SSJ, so the only way to break that wall was SSJ. When he got beat up by 18, he thought he had reached his limit since he couldn't believe he lost, and finding out the existence of Cell, angered him and thought of transcending the SSJ state. With Goku, when he got better and spoke a bit with Roshi, he tells him the only way he can beat Cell was to ascend to a new level, and tells him he will train in the ROSAT. I think, these are evidence that there is a limit to how strong you can get, because the Daizenshu tells us SSJ3: "The strongest form of Super Saiyan, which draws the hidden power of a Saiyan out to its limits". This shows they get stronger, EXTREMELY stronger because they achieve a new level of SSJ, not so much because they train. When Goku came out of the ROSAT he was still SSJ, he was stronger than Vegeta, but only because he was used to SSJ, not because his PL was much higher than Vegeta. So..yeah...
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SuperSaiyan1993
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Super Saiyan among Super Saiyans

I think the more powerful the Z fighters get, the harder it becomes to break through their limits
We Super Saiyans are in a league of our own.
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InterWebZ
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I'm of the view that they do have limits just like every other species; it's just freakishly high and they have access to extreme multipliers. But there is a limit as to how much Ki they could put out, however hard they tried.

The evidence for either viewpoint is scant, but one piece of evidence could be the fusion to SSJ4 Gogeta, in which both Goku and Vegeta fused without equalising first, implying that they had equal or near-equal PL's despite not following the same training regime for quite some time. That might imply that SSJ4 is the peak upper limit that Saiyans can reach.
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InterWebZ
Apr 13 2012, 05:56 AM
I'm of the view that they do have limits just like every other species; it's just freakishly high and they have access to extreme multipliers. But there is a limit as to how much Ki they could put out, however hard they tried.

The evidence for either viewpoint is scant, but one piece of evidence could be the fusion to SSJ4 Gogeta, in which both Goku and Vegeta fused without equalising first, implying that they had equal or near-equal PL's despite not following the same training regime for quite some time. That might imply that SSJ4 is the peak upper limit that Saiyans can reach.
Vegeta's SSjin 4 was actually stronger than Goku's at that point, possibly due to the Bruits Wave emission. He was about equal to a Surpassed Limits SSjin 4 Goku.
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InterWebZ
Apr 13 2012, 05:56 AM
I'm of the view that they do have limits just like every other species; it's just freakishly high and they have access to extreme multipliers. But there is a limit as to how much Ki they could put out, however hard they tried.

The evidence for either viewpoint is scant, but one piece of evidence could be the fusion to SSJ4 Gogeta, in which both Goku and Vegeta fused without equalising first, implying that they had equal or near-equal PL's despite not following the same training regime for quite some time. That might imply that SSJ4 is the peak upper limit that Saiyans can reach.
GT also forgot about the whole "You need to wait 1 hour before fusing again" thing.

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Vegeta's SSjin 4 was actually stronger than Goku's at that point, possibly due to the Bruits Wave emission. He was about equal to a Surpassed Limits SSjin 4 Goku.

Is that true? I recall SSj4 Goku doing well agaisnt Nouva Shenron but SSj4 Vegeta getting his ***** whooped when Nouva was just playing around.
Edited by Clearin, Apr 13 2012, 11:02 AM.
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Accelerator
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最強の能力者

Edit: Jk I fail.
Edited by Accelerator, Apr 13 2012, 03:44 PM.
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NavonWise
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So I might as well post this here since, it belongs here..

Selsiuss
Jun 13 2012, 11:27 PM
What exactly is your evidence for limits? I know that it comes from the Cell saga, after ROSAT training, right? Volume, Chapter, and Page ,please. I'll read through that saga again to see if there's any weight to the claim.
Not exactly after the ROSAT training, it's that statement Vegeta gave when he first transformed into a SSJ. He says he reached a wall he couldn't pass, then he transformed into a SSJ meaning the only way he broke that wall was achieving SSJ. Then, again when Cell escapes from Piccolo, when they all gather, Vegeta is pissed and says he'll surpass the SSJ wall and ascend. Now if there was no limit to a base, why ascend if your base can get stronger, since SSJ is just a multiplication? We can say ascending was faster, but it all goes back to Vegeta saying he reached his limits at base.

Then we got Goku, when he woke up again from the heart virus, while talking to Roshi he tells him the only way he can beat Cell it's if he ascends, meaning he too thought he did everything he could have with SSJ. Then fast forward to the Buu saga, we got mystic Gohan. The manga clearly states Old Kai's magic was not the same as Guru or another "releasing potential" ability. When Old Kai tells everyone his ability, Goku's like....ok, we see that all the time. But Old Kai makes it clear his magic goes beyond the normal limits, and I think it's a reason why they call him Ultimate Gohan, cause it make sense all his hidden potential has been brought out to his ultimate limit. Not only that, but when he almost died by Buu, he didn't receive a zenkai when Dende healed him. Buu makes it clear there was no change.

Now I know there is a rumor out there that a zenkai's purpose was for a Saiyan to transform to a SSJ, but the manga never states this. Sure after Frieza the zenkai was not mentioned until when Cell got it, but that doesn't mean is not there since it doesn't have to be said all the time. So these are the reasons why I believe there is a limit to how strong you can get in DBZ.
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Selsiuss
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I was actually intending to start my own thread on this topic, but anyway...

So your saying that Goku was stronger than Vegeta.... but not actually stronger than him?

Pre-Rosat Ssj Goku and Vegeta, are the same as Post Rosat Ssj Goku and Vegeta, but they've increased power, but not really? So they're stronger than they were, but not really? They were weaker than the Androids before, but now can almost match Cell, but they're still not any stronger?

I'll address this in more detail later. It will take a while to gather every single tidbit of information to make a proper reply.
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NavonWise
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In terms of PL we know ASSJ and USSJ>MSSJ but we know Goku could have beaten Vegeta. You know how MSSJ works..
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Teen GohanZ
Apr 13 2012, 11:02 AM
Is that true? I recall SSj4 Goku doing well agaisnt Nouva Shenron but SSj4 Vegeta getting his ***** whooped when Nouva was just playing around.
Vegeta stated Nuova was just trying to get him out of the way and that none of his attacks did any damage.
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