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Power of Spirit and Time Room: Goku's Super Saiyan Power!
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 10:48 AM (1,817 Views)
Kruegs Outlandish
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POWER
of Spirit and Time Room:
Super Saiyan Goku's Power!


How much more power does Goku gain from the Room of Spirit and Time?

While battling Cell, Goku fought at his fullest. His power here is the product of his RST training.

We see a glimpse of this, however; after exiting RST with Gohan, Goku asks Korin to gauge his power against Cell's. Goku powers and states that he had powered to about 50% of his maximum fighting power. With this, anything in between can be ignored well enough; we know that Goku at Cell is twice as strong as Goku at Korin's Tower.


Goku (SSJ, Cell Games) = 1 000Goku (SSJ, At Korin's Tower) |2| Goku (SSJ, Cell Games)

Goku (SSJ, At Korin's Tower) = 500

Future Trunks, in particular appeared completely baffled by Goku's power; similarly, Trunks was baffled by Cell's power, as Cell mimicked Trunk's overpowering. As such, Future Trunks, even well beyond his limit, underwhelms what Goku achieves in front of Korin.

Future Trunks (A2SSJ, At Cell 3) <<< Goku (SSJ, At Korin's Tower)

Future Trunks (A2SSJ, At Cell 3) < 413.23

Piccolo, Krillin, and the others are convinced that Future Trunks' power is more than enough to end Cell's display; whereas, even Super Vegeta failed miserably.

Cell 3 (Initial) <<< Future Trunks (A2SSJ, At Cell 3)

Cell 3 (Initial) < 341.51
Vegeta (A1SSJ, At Cell 3) <<< Cell 3 (Initial)

Vegeta (A1SSJ, At Cell 3) < 282.24

Super Vegeta, mocking, mentions to Cell, who had achieved #17, that Future Trunks, while not as strong as Vegeta, was close enough to warrant Cell's panic.

Future Trunks (A1SSJ, At Cell 2) ||< Vegeta (A1SSJ, At Cell 3)

Future Trunks (A1SSJ, At Cell 2) < 256.58

Semi-Perfect Cell powers-up drastically; Vegeta implies that Future Trunks would have been more than enough for full-powered Cell.

Cell 2 (Full) <<< Future Trunks (A1SSJ, At Cell 2)

Cell 2 (Full) < 212.05
Cell 2 (Initial) <<< Cell 2 (Full)

Cell 2 (Initial) < 175.25

Imperfect Cell manages Piccolo's Light Grenade unscathed, and goes up against #16 before exploiting #17's hubris.

Cell 1 (At #16) <<< Cell 2 (Initial)

Cell 1 (At #16) < 144.84
Piccolo (Kami, Light Grenade) <<< Cell 1 (At #16)

Piccolo (Kami, Light Grenade) < 119.7

#18 seemed a bit overwhelmed that Piccolo could grapple with #17, let only fire off Light Grenade; #17 seemed to know to take cover.

#17 (At Piccolo) <<< Piccolo (Kami, Light Grenade)

#17 (Full) < 98.93
#18 (Full) ||< #17 (At Piccolo)

#18 (Full) < 89.93

Cell at Gingertown was outmatched by Piccolo, who had still been wearing weighting clothing; whereas, #16 mentions that Piccolo would rival #17. Cell seemed concerned with having to confront #17 and #18; he opted to absorb a good amount of human extract before searching for them.

To this extent, Piccolo disapproved of Vegeta seeking Cell out by himself, as Vegeta was not a match for #18, who had been toying with him and Future Trunks.


Cell 1 (At Gingertown) <<< #18 (Full)

Cell 1 (At Gingertown) < 74.33
#18 (At Vegeta) <<< Cell 1 (At Gingertown)

#18 (At Vegeta) < 61.43

Vegeta was no match for #18, who was not in the least serious concerning their match; Goku would have been worse off.

Vegeta (SSJ, At #18) <<< #18 (At Vegeta)

Vegeta (SSJ, At #18) < 50.77
Goku (SSJ, Three Years Later) <<< Vegeta (SSJ, At #18)

Goku (SSJ, Three Years Later) < 41.95


Order

Goku (SSJ, Three Years Later) <<< Vegeta (SSJ, At #18) <<< #18 (At Vegeta) <<<

Cell 1 (At Gingertown) <<< #18 (Full) ||< #17 (At Piccolo) <<< Piccolo (Kami, Light Grenade) <<<

Cell 1 (At #16) <<< Cell 2 (Initial) <<< Cell 2 (Full) <<<

Future Trunks (A1SSJ, At Cell 2) ||< Vegeta (A1SSJ, At Cell 2) <<< Cell 3 (Initial) <<<

Future Trunks (A2SSJ, At Cell 3) <<< Goku (SSJ, At Korin's Tower)  |2|

Goku (SSJ, Cell Games)



Recap


fightermax power (Goku (Cell Games) = 1000)min power (Goku (Three Years Later) = 1)
Goku (SSJ, Cell Games)1000.0023.83
Goku (SSJ, At Korin's Tower)500.0011.91
Future Trunks (A2SSJ, At Cell 3)413.239.84
Cell 3 (Initial)341.518.14
Vegeta (A1SSJ, At Cell 3)282.246.72
Future Trunks (A1SSJ, At Cell 2)256.586.11
Cell 2 (Full)212.055.05
Cell 2 (Initial)175.254.17
Cell 1 (At #16)144.843.45
Piccolo (Kami, Light Grenade)119.702.85
#17 (At Piccolo)98.932.35
#18 (Full)89.932.14
Cell 1 (At Gingertown)74.331.77
#18 (At Vegeta)61.431.46
Vegeta (SSJ, At #18)50.771.21
Goku (SSJ, Three Years Later)41.961.00


Scope

Goku became, at least, 23 times stronger! GD!!!

What does this mean exactly, especially for those who are SSJ-factor heads?

I'll use different factors, and explain from, both, the perspective of Three-Years and RST Goku.


RST SSJ factorWhat it means.
2Obviously, base Goku's power is Goku's power at Korin's Tower, half-powered. He's stronger than anyone prior to the break for Cell Games.
5Goku, as normal, is, at least, more than 4.5 times his prior Super Saiyan strength. Semi-Perfect Cell's full power is, at least, 5 times Pre-RST SSJ Goku, and at most, a bit more than a fifth of RST Goku's power.
10Goku's base is at least twice as powerful as Pre-RST SSJ Goku, as is #17 and #18; at most, each are little less than a tenth of Goku's full Cell-Games power.
20Goku's Pre-RST SSJ power is, for all intents and purposes, is surpassed by his new base; he is, at least able to overpower his old SSJ strength, as would Pre-RST SSJ Vegeta. Imagine Goku, at normal-state, fighting Pre-RST SSJ Vegeta and Vegeta wondering why "Kakarrott" is so strong despite not being a Super Saiyan :3 . [pridehurt]
50Goku's base is only around 45 (47.67)% of Pre-RST SSJ Goku's power. Sadly, base wouldn't rank, but even still, we can assume the power of Pre-RST SSJ Goku.

Assuming his battle power [wince] is at least 300-500 million...

Post-RST Goku's power is 143-238 million respectively. That's enough to place within the range of Mecha Frieza, Future Trunks, as he dispatches Frieza, and Goku's power from Yadrat. Powerful indeed.

As for Vegeta's and Future Trunks' overall RST gains consider the following arguments.

We could assume this much
:
  • Future Trunks, prior to RST, was equal, or less than, Goku, prior to RST.
  • Super Saiyan powers of Vegeta and Trunks were comparable to Semi-Perfect Cell's initial power by RST 1.
  • Vegeta's and Trunks' power reached Goku's power at Korin's Tower by RST 2.
Future Trunks' growths are, at least x4 from RST 1, and at least x2.75 from RST 2. Overall, and probably obviously, his growth is at least half of Goku's growth, x11.91:

Cell 2 (Initial) / Goku (SSJ, Three Years Later) ~ 4.17
Goku (SSJ, At Korin's Tower) / Cell 2 (Initial) ~ 11.91 / 4.17 = 2.853

4.17 * 2.853 = 11.91


Vegeta's growths are, at least x3.4 from RST 1, and at least x2.75 from RST 2. Overall, his growth is at least, x9.84:

Cell 2 (Initial) / Vegeta (SSJ, At #18) ~ 4.17 / 1.21 = 3.45
Goku (SSJ, At Korin's Tower) / Cell 2 (Initial) ~ 11.91 / 4.17 = 2.853

3.45 * 2.853 = 9.84


As for Piccolo's merger, we may state that he is comparable to #17, and that:

Piccolo (At #20) <<< Goku (SSJ, Afflicted at #19) <<< Goku (SSJ, Three Years Later) = 1
Piccolo (At #20) < 0.69

#17 (Full) / Piccolo (At #20) ~ 2.35 / 0.69 = 3.45


Piccolo's merger definitely netted more than his power x3.4.

Close

Go to RST. Get 20 times stronger.

This is how I come up with numbers for advantages.
Edited by Kruegs Outlandish, Jun 11 2012, 05:43 AM.
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brolyeuphyfusion
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21.66 is a minimum, I have Goku getting 80.83 times stronger in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.
btw, how does Super Saiyan Gohan(Cell Games) compare?
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Well, after all of that work, SSJ Gohan's Cell Games power isn't hard to come up with.

Gohan essentially fights the same Cell that Goku fought. Cell states that he uses full speed, but, in pure honesty, that does not imply that he never used full speed against Goku; it could that he didn't think he would have to use full speed against Gohan, or that Gohan was merely faster than Cell thought the boy'd be.

Still, despite Cell's full force being much more than Goku could muster, Cell's only one-ups on Goku in their fight were a slight power advantage and the fact that Goku would tire out long before he would.

Gohan believes that neither of them are fighting at full force, which was only true for Cell, and when Gohan fights Cell, he only proves that, even if he is, possibly, stronger than Cell, the two were comparable. IMO, [startsbattlepowerlisting:(pleasedontdothat]


Goku (SSJ, Full) ||< Cell 3 (At Goku) |<< Gohan (SSJ, Full)

Goku is disadvantaged by Cell, who is, at worst, disadvantaged by Gohan.

fighterpower
Goku (SSJ, Full)100
Cell 3 (At Goku)110
Gohan (SSJ, Full)120



Also, I suppose I could have mentioned Vegeta and Trunks more in scope.

Assume, at the very least, that, from RST 1, both Future Trunks and Vegeta as Super Saiyans:

  • are comparable to Semi-Perfect Cell's initial power.
  • reached Goku's power at Korin's Tower.
Vegeta's and Future Trunks' growths from the RST 1 into the Cell Games were at least:

Goku (SSJ, At Korin's Tower) / Cell 2 (Initial) ~ 10.83 / 3.79 = 2.853

From both RST rounds, Vegeta and Trunks managed to net, at least, 895% and 1083% of growth, respectively:

Goku (SSJ, At Korin's Tower) / Cell 2 (Initial) ~ 10.83 / 3.79 = 2.853

Cell 2 (Initial) / Vegeta (SSJ, At #18) ~ 3.79 / 1.21 = 3.13
3.13 * 2.853 = 8.95

Cell 2 (Initial) / SSJ Goku (SSJ, Three Years Later) ~ 3.79 / 1.00 = 3.79
3.79 * 2.853 = 10.83


EDIT: I've added a corrected version of this to the original post.
Edited by Kruegs Outlandish, Jan 8 2012, 07:12 AM.
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Paikuan extreme
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in the end i guess HOW goku came up so strong from the rosat training so soon AFTER coming up with the idea for MSSJ matters alot more considering he only put in ONE session and knocked him AND gohans power thru the roof, maybe trunks should have trained with them instead, cause vegeta seems to make bigger gains on his own.

But then again this HAD to work out like this as gohan is the hero of this story. Hidden power and all.

I still think that this is just the power left over from goku being healed from a weak heart. Its not a zenkai, but its definitely giving him a way to catch up seemingly when he HAD to have been hindered by a disease that literally takes years to kill you, and saps years off your life.

Training or 3 years and thne getting sick means to me that they didnt train to beat the androids seriously. Maybe trunks tale of woe AND being able to take the future past cyborgs for little bit. made them calculate (off panel) exactly what needed to be done to get it.

So if piccolo= goku at full power before the rosat? then that means that at least goku cand piccolo had the right idea while it seemed most people bided their time hoping goku would get stronger.

Krillin
yamcha
tien* tien got much stronger than those two combine though over the years. Did krillin train at ALL!!???

if I was krillin? i would have trained with goku. With potential powerup HE got he should have been past tien and been able to do some damage to semi cell, instead he cringed, ALL that power, wasted.

A krillin stronger than tien could have cut semi cells head off.

No need to for a 17 who was actually in the mind of joining the z fighters, realizing AGAIN that he had been used as an accessory by gero. Man no respect huh?

everythin you said here is a math mans/womans dream. to put into numbers what was shown on screen or in the manga.

even though the truths already been told, this puts a better perspective as to why.

except for one thing- what the hell is gokus secret? but ive only got one answer to me that makes ANY sense.

The spiritual training with king kai. It pushed gokus "spirit pressure" thru the roof for potential.

NONE of this would be possible for him without it. JMO.

Without it piccolo couldnt fight 17

or tien vs semi cell with his shi kikoho.

guru (old kai) was himself a spiritual medium, therefore gohan and krillin got the same power up.

I figured piccolos merge with kami would give him some gain, but since kamis power was only in the hundreds then i couldnt even imagine what that would do, if anything.
But then again, being rivals and remerging into the same being HAD to have some kind of universal booster to overall form and character.

It was no secret trunks was stronger than vegeta, but did he really come back as strong as goku? how is that possible? he came and left pretty fast the first time. I doubt he picked up any real training habits.

Cause using future gohans training techniques wouldnt help him at all.

im not gonna lie, I dont think ANY of them were around the same power level as the other when they discovered SSj.

all of their bases were different. they had to be. Otherwise they should all be exactly the same in power levels.

But i guess thats the point of them "looking" over the SSj wall. By this time it became a race to see who would get there first.

I just think its odd that all of a sudden 3 guys who turned SSj at different times in their lives for different reason all end up being the same strength in the end.

Was that what toriyama envisioned? from my perspective i cant say it was.

pre rosat, kamiccolo>=ssj goku fp>ssj vegeta>=trunks>>worn down sick goku?

he had to have fallen behind them all then after getting sucked on by 19 and firing a spam kamehameha.

Brolyfusion: huh? you have goku gettng almost 100x more powerful in his rosat trip? how WEAK do you have goku in order for this to happen? cause by numbers/logic if he was THAT much stronger? he should have been able to fight cell at CELLS full power.

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Ninjajp247
Jan 7 2012, 08:48 PM
pre rosat, kamiccolo>=ssj goku fp>ssj vegeta>=trunks>>worn down sick goku?
Not sure how you ended up with that. It's heavily implied Vegeta is a bit stronger than Goku (at full power), and that Piccolo w/Kami while weighted blows him out of the water, let alone at full power.
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Paikuan extreme
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uh, cause it was implied by piccolo that gokus power SHOULD have been more. Im sure that before the virus hit? goku and vegeta were pretty much even.

hard for vegeta to not be even when no evidence was presented to pit vegeta AGAINST goku when goku was already sick.

Vegetas initlal savage ssj transform might have been stronger thangokus at it inception, but then again i have vegetas base higher than gokus was when he hit ssj. As goku didnt train to tough on yardrat, and vegeta ran off into space for 3 years.

Otherwise i dont see goku even being able to train at full potential, and what you said doesnt explain his super multiplier coming from the rosat.

I undertand making a form to fight in and conserve energy, but how did that energy translate into strength?

vegeta himself implied he was stronger than goku, but had a hard time proving it up TILL goku collapsed.

so a sick goku STILL almost retained as much strength as a fp ssj vegeta who not only wasnt sick? but got left behind by TWO forms when he spent almost 2/12 years in the rosat. Its not a coincidence KP.

Edited by Paikuan extreme, Jan 7 2012, 09:09 PM.
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uh, cause it was implied by piccolo that gokus power SHOULD have been more. Im sure that before the virus hit? goku and vegeta were pretty much even.

You're agreeing that Piccolo knew Goku's full power. That just helps my case. Piccolo wouldn't compare Vegeta's strength to a sick Goku, there'd be no point in doing that. Gohan would know his father's full power as well, and he had no obligations to Piccolo saying Vegeta was stronger. Nobody wondered if Vegeta was more powerful than Goku (sick) because it was obvious that he was. Piccolo is the only one that questions it at first because he knows Goku's fullest and would therefore compare Vegeta to that.
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Otherwise i dont see goku even being able to train at full potential, and what you said doesnt explain his super multiplier coming from the rosat.

Why should I care about explaining that when it has no bearing on this debate? Goku got more out of his training. I do not care because it doesn't mean Goku somehow had all of this power inside him that secretly made him as powerful as Piccolo after fusing with Kami.
Quote:
 
vegeta himself implied he was stronger than goku, but had a hard time proving it up TILL goku collapsed.

How was he going to prove it before Goku collapsed? It's implied he didn't even return to Earth until earlier that day, and then he watched Goku fight so he could see how powerful Goku got after all the training.
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so a sick goku STILL almost retained as much strength as a fp ssj vegeta who not only wasnt sick? but got left behind by TWO forms when he spent almost 2/12 years in the rosat. Its not a coincidence KP.

Like I said, I don't give a hoot that Goku came out so much stronger than Vegeta after only one trip. It was very thoroughly explained in the manga how that happened. It doesn't negate Vegeta having the edge in power prior to the RoSaT trips. Goku himself admits Vegeta is at least his equal, and there's no way you can twist Almighty Goku's words here.
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Paikuan extreme
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ok then...so goku agreeing with vegeta about his physical state, STILL doesnt change the fact he was hiding he hadnt been feeling well.

so if goku being sick didnt bear on his training? then what did?
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go here to debate whether or not Goku or Vegeta was stronger; only because I'm fervent on Vegeta being much stronger than Goku at this time.

Pyro, could you change the part of my topic title that says "Time and Spirit" to "Spirit and Time"?

Thanks bunches!
Edited by Kruegs Outlandish, Jan 8 2012, 02:05 AM.
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It has been done.
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Kruegs Outlandish
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This is a pretty beast topic :)

SO ...

What do you guys think about this?

Currently I have:

#18 (Full) <<< Piccolo (Kami, Light Grenade)

This guy #17 always seems to imply that he has a sizable lead over #18, yet he felt like he had to hit deck at Light Grenade.

So how many people would argee with this?

#18 (Full) ||< #17 (Full) <<< Piccolo (Kami, Light Grenade)

If an overwhelming majority would, then I'm thinking that would bump Goku's growth up to at least 23x :3 .

Is there any other power statement that you guys could think of that has complete, and obvious (I'd suppose this depends on perspective ... :( ), support of the manga that would make a difference?
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Paikuan extreme
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The light grenade is piccolos greatest invention, next to the makkansappo, just like the kamehameha its supposed to amplify as an attack with charged up Ki.

something i suppose came to his head training with king kai. Charged attacks.
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Zanderman.punxx
Jan 8 2012, 04:59 AM
This is a pretty beast topic :)

SO ...

What do you guys think about this?

Currently I have:

#18 (Full) <<< Piccolo (Kami, Light Grenade)

This guy #17 always seems to imply that he has a sizable lead over #18, yet he felt like he had to hit deck at Light Grenade.

So how many people would argee with this?

#18 (Full) ||< #17 (Full) <<< Piccolo (Kami, Light Grenade)

If an overwhelming majority would, then I'm thinking that would bump Goku's growth up to at least 23x :3 .

Is there any other power statement that you guys could think of that has complete, and obvious (I'd suppose this depends on perspective ... :( ), support of the manga that would make a difference?
If "<<<" means a humongous gap, then I agree. It had to have been a very strong attack for C17 to avoid it instead of just creating a barrier like he did earlier. It just increases the gap between C17 and A16/Cell, which further increases Goku's power growth IMO.
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Paikuan extreme
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Kamikaze Pyro
Jan 8 2012, 05:17 AM
Zanderman.punxx
Jan 8 2012, 04:59 AM
This is a pretty beast topic :)

SO ...

What do you guys think about this?

Currently I have:

#18 (Full) <<< Piccolo (Kami, Light Grenade)

This guy #17 always seems to imply that he has a sizable lead over #18, yet he felt like he had to hit deck at Light Grenade.

So how many people would argee with this?

#18 (Full) ||< #17 (Full) <<< Piccolo (Kami, Light Grenade)

If an overwhelming majority would, then I'm thinking that would bump Goku's growth up to at least 23x :3 .

Is there any other power statement that you guys could think of that has complete, and obvious (I'd suppose this depends on perspective ... :( ), support of the manga that would make a difference?
If "<<<" means a humongous gap, then I agree. It had to have been a very strong attack for C17 to avoid it instead of just creating a barrier like he did earlier. It just increases the gap between C17 and A16/Cell, which further increases Goku's power growth IMO.
sounds interesting, do tell...
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Kruegs Outlandish
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Edits take incredibly long...

Pyro,

a <<< b

The generic expression i use whenever someone dispatches of someone else fairly easily.

Gap between #17 and Cell 1 (At #16) thus far, at least 1.4641 :3 ... power stuff! #17's, at most, 68% of Cell so far!

XDDD
Edited by Kruegs Outlandish, Jan 8 2012, 07:47 AM.
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