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Dabura vs MSSJ Kid Gohan
Topic Started: Dec 16 2011, 02:36 AM (3,450 Views)
p123
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Well Gohan losing power is plot stuff too. I doubt Roshi or Chi Chi or Kuririn ever lost power after they stopped training. They just wanted to play on Gohan's lazyness as a way to drop him out of the main character role...

I have explained this scenario before haven't I?

AT comes in and just puts Gohan out there with SSJ2, and then is like, you know what, I don;t like that, let's pretend like he can't anymore.

Then everyone magically forgets Gohan went SSJ2 and if you look at the story like that, it basically makes perfect sense.

A sort of retcon scenario...

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Doggo Champion 2k17
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p123
Dec 18 2011, 04:22 AM
This whole debate is whether you think Gohan was a SSJ or SSJ2. One of the toughest debates around.

Gohan is drawn as a SSJ, and is one for me that's as simple as it gets. Dabura should be weaker than MSSJ Goku from the Cell Games by a good margin IMO..
No it isn't. You should be able to figure this out without resorting to whether or not he was a SSJ2. Just use logic. If it was stated that Dabura was the same as Perfect Cell, then he owns MSSJ Kid Gohan.

I don't think that Dabura is a good margin weaker than MSSJ Goku.

My statements might not be 100% accurate because I haven't read the manga in a while, so I'll look it up and put in a final say on the matter. Or maybe someone else already has evidence from the manga to either support or disprove my theory?

Quote:
 
Hell, in real life if you don't train for 7 years you'll be a complete weakling no matter how strong you originally were...


DBZ isn't real life, and all of the characters have crazy super-human strength. Do you really think that their muslces and powers would degenerate like normal people? Just throwing that out there... I'm pretty sure that their ability to fly, incredible strength, and ki powers also mean that they're most likely able to keep their bodies in good condition, and it wouldn't take long to remember how to fight since it was ingrained in them since they were young.
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CatouttaHell
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p123
Dec 18 2011, 04:53 AM
Well Gohan losing power is plot stuff too. I doubt Roshi or Chi Chi or Kuririn ever lost power after they stopped training. They just wanted to play on Gohan's lazyness as a way to drop him out of the main character role...

I have explained this scenario before haven't I?

AT comes in and just puts Gohan out there with SSJ2, and then is like, you know what, I don;t like that, let's pretend like he can't anymore.

Then everyone magically forgets Gohan went SSJ2 and if you look at the story like that, it basically makes perfect sense.

A sort of retcon scenario...

I don't know man, this whole Base Vegeta > Pui-Pui > SSjin 2 Gohan seems to be really implied. Both jackjack and Victorious have put forth great arguments for it.

Hell, you even have the implications of Kibito being around the Base Saiya-jins, followed by Vegeta saying Kibito only got killed by a guy as strong as Perfect Cell because he was a bumbler...

Kibito implies SSjin 2 Gohan's power wouldn't be surprising if he was a Kaioshin too. He merely states he can't believe Gohan is a being of the lower world.

Kaioshin comments on Gohan's power too but never implies it's above him. The same Kaioshin is then stated to be below Pui-Pui...

If it wasn't for the implications that SSjin 2 Goku and Demon Prince Vegeta aren't far enough above Enraged SSjin 2 Chibi Gohan to one-shot him I'd probably have Pui-Pui stronger than SPC.
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Kruegs Outlandish
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jumping in long enough to jump back out.

Dabra said that Pocus' power was nothing, more or less.

Dabra almost compliments Gohan on his power.

Gohan >>> Pocus in Dabra's opinion; otherwise, Dabra is weaker than Pocus by that logic for not being able to handle Gohan.

I'm beginning to think that someone may being trolling somewhere; if not in this topic then somewhere...

As far as the topic goes:

Piccolo simply can't be weaker than Cell Games, where he's definitely not weak there either; he's strong enough not to be completely destroyed by Cell Jr.

Kaioshin is clearly stated to be "dimensions" above a Piccolo that may or may not be much stronger than Cell Games Piccolo. I'd ask whether Piccolo would have believed that Cell Games Future Trunks and Vegeta were "dimensions" above him and lean towards a "no" answer. I would say that Cell Games Goku is "dimensions" above...

Dabra, before the Majin curse, was much stronger than Kaioshin.

Then add whatever power Babidi releases from Dabra.

I'm next to positive that Dabra, before the curse, was around Gohan's and Cell's (at Goku) power, at least...
Edited by Kruegs Outlandish, Dec 18 2011, 07:46 AM.
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p123
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Well SSJ2 Gohan is forgot about. Super Saiyan Gohan on the other hand, is complimented and suggested to be a monstrous power by Kaioshin.

Toriyama probably changed his mind on how Kaioshin stacked up, or wanted to hype up Kaioshin and Kibito a bit at the Budokai...

Super Saiyan Gohan should be way beyond SSJ2 Gohan based on Kaioshin's quotes.

Considering that Kaioshin forgot what he sensed from SSJ2 Gohan, it makes it possible as well.

Dabura is never stated to be = to Perfect Cell.

All Goku says is he's probably around Cell. No form or anything is suggested. So the next logical step would be to see what other evidence is out there. Not the other way around.

Dabura fighting evenly with SSJ Gohan is stated to be stronger than what Goku first pegged him at. Gohan was a Super Saiyan, and stated to have become weaker. So Dabura is weaker than SSJ Gohan in Goku's initial estimation...
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Doggo Champion 2k17
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Quote:
 
All Goku says is he's probably around Cell. No form or anything is suggested. So the next logical step would be to see what other evidence is out there. Not the other way around.


Yes. Exactly. Goku says that he's probably around Cell. That means he's either slightly stronger, slightly weaker, or equal to Perfect Cell. Perfect Cell is considerably stronger that MSSJ Kid Gohan.

Dabura >>> MSSJ Kid Gohan.

End of discussion. You basically just proved it.
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p123
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Why thank you. Yea, it should work that way. Not , well Dabura = Cell, then Gohan must have magically been a higher form than drawn logic IMO...
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Doggo Champion 2k17
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p123
Dec 18 2011, 06:14 AM
Why thank you. Yea, it should work that way. Not , well Dabura = Cell, then Gohan must have magically been a higher form than drawn logic IMO...
I really don't understand what you're trying to say. Do you have any real proof that Dabura does not equal Cell, or are you just trying to make it that way?
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Illustrious
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p123
Dec 18 2011, 04:22 AM
This whole debate is whether you think Gohan was a SSJ or SSJ2. One of the toughest debates around.

Gohan is drawn as a SSJ, and is one for me that's as simple as it gets. Dabura should be weaker than MSSJ Goku from the Cell Games by a good margin IMO..
I don't see how it's possible for Gohan to get that weak over the 7 year period. I still have him at or just above Goku's MSSJ level from the Cell Games, and Dabura at exactly Cell's level when he fought Goku. Most people underrate Dabura, and he was, after all, toying with Gohan during their battle.

Here's what I'm talking about:
Goku (MSSJ/Cell Games) - 50
Gohan (MSSJ/Cell Games) - 65
Goku (MSSJ/Buu Saga) - 70
Gohan (MSSJ/Buu Saga) - 50-55
Dabura (Suppressed) - 30
Dabura (Powered Up) - 60
Perfect Cell - 60-65.

Edited by Illustrious, Dec 18 2011, 06:56 AM.
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p123
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Gohan is stated to have been far , far better as a kid. Goku isn't suggested to be far, far weaker than Gohan at the Cell Games...
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Doggo Champion 2k17
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Illustrious
Dec 18 2011, 06:44 AM
p123
Dec 18 2011, 04:22 AM
This whole debate is whether you think Gohan was a SSJ or SSJ2. One of the toughest debates around.

Gohan is drawn as a SSJ, and is one for me that's as simple as it gets. Dabura should be weaker than MSSJ Goku from the Cell Games by a good margin IMO..
I don't see how it's possible for Gohan to get that weak over the 7 year period. I still have him at or just above Goku's MSSJ level from the Cell Games, and Dabura at exactly Cell's level when he fought Goku. Most people underrate Dabura, and he was, after all, toying with Gohan during their battle.

Here's what I'm talking about:
Goku (MSSJ/Cell Games) - 50
Gohan (MSSJ/Cell Games) - 65
Goku (MSSJ/Buu Saga) - 70
Gohan (MSSJ/Buu Saga) - 50-55
Dabura (Suppressed) - 30
Dabura (Powered Up) - 60
Perfect Cell - 60-65.

Your idea is great except for a few things. First of all, I don't think that MSSJ Goku (Cell Games) was that much weaker than MSSJ Gohan (Cell Games), and I also think that Perfect Cell should be higher. He was stronger than MSSJ Gohan. So that would mean that Dabura is a bit stronger too, I think.

Glad to know someone has some sense, though!


EDIT: When was that ever stated, p123?
Edited by Doggo Champion 2k17, Dec 18 2011, 07:03 AM.
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Illustrious
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p123
Dec 18 2011, 07:01 AM
Gohan is stated to have been far , far better as a kid. Goku isn't suggested to be far, far weaker than Gohan at the Cell Games...
It's implied that he's weaker than Gohan by quite a bit, seeing as he thought Gohan could topple Cell as an MSSJ. Until Cell increased his speed, Cell couldn't keep up with him.
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p123
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Vegeta states it at the Budokai, and then when he fights Dabura says he was even better as a kid.

Gohan's highest power suggested is SSJ post Budokai, including GT not that that really matters.



Super Saiyan Gohan, who is stated to be weaker, fights evenly with Dabura. Thus, Dabura would get trashed by SSJ Kid Gohan, and Gohan seems to be suggested to be weaker than Kid Gohan than Goku was...


Goku never thought SSJ Gohan could beat Cell.
Edited by p123, Dec 18 2011, 07:05 AM.
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Doggo Champion 2k17
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Illustrious
Dec 18 2011, 07:03 AM
p123
Dec 18 2011, 07:01 AM
Gohan is stated to have been far , far better as a kid. Goku isn't suggested to be far, far weaker than Gohan at the Cell Games...
It's implied that he's weaker than Gohan by quite a bit, seeing as he thought Gohan could topple Cell as an MSSJ. Until Cell increased his speed, Cell couldn't keep up with him.
I'm actually going to have to side with p123 on this one. Goku thought that Gohan could topple Cell if he unleashed his true power, not just as a regular MSSJ. Cell could keep up with him all along. I vividly remember Cell having an advantage throughout the whole fight. I do agree that Gohan was a bit stronger than Goku, but not by much.
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Illustrious
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p123
Dec 18 2011, 07:05 AM
Vegeta states it at the Budokai, and then when he fights Dabura says he was even better as a kid.

Gohan's highest power suggested is SSJ post Budokai, including GT not that that really matters.



Super Saiyan Gohan, who is stated to be weaker, fights evenly with Dabura. Thus, Dabura would get trashed by SSJ Kid Gohan, and Gohan seems to be suggested to be weaker than Kid Gohan than Goku was...


Goku never thought SSJ Gohan could beat Cell.
Except Dabura was toying with Gohan, meaning he may just be as strong as Cell (who fought Goku). And like I've said numerous times before, I don't think Gohan got that weak during the 7 year break. It just seems a bit ridiculous.
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