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Perfect Cell (Powered Up Against Goku) vs Dabura
Topic Started: Nov 24 2011, 04:20 PM (2,614 Views)
+ Clearin
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ILLusioNaire
Dec 3 2011, 05:57 PM
Teen GohanZ
Nov 30 2011, 09:06 PM
DarkCore
Nov 30 2011, 09:00 PM
isn't Dabura ssj2 lvl and PC FPSSJ lvl ?

SPC is stronger than Dabura though
Gohan being MSSj or SSj2 in that fight seems to be one of the longest running debates in DBZ history. As of right now there doesn't seem to be a set answer so just go with whatever you think and base your answer off that.
Also guides don't help one bit, one guide says he was MSSj and another says he was SSj2.
Actually, that matter has been settled.
Is there a comment from Akira? Because if there isn't then no, it is not settled. If you look all over the web it's probably one of DBZs biggest debates with evidence for both sides and at this point it seems the only person to be able to answer the question is Toriyama himself. It's really best to just avoid these debates :/ Some people (I've seen Lunar do it) answer Dabura versus with both sides, I would do that but I'm too lazy so I just make it obvious that it's my opinion instead of making it sound like fact.
Edited by Clearin, Dec 3 2011, 06:04 PM.
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Teen GohanZ
Dec 3 2011, 06:03 PM
ILLusioNaire
Dec 3 2011, 05:57 PM
Teen GohanZ
Nov 30 2011, 09:06 PM
DarkCore
Nov 30 2011, 09:00 PM
isn't Dabura ssj2 lvl and PC FPSSJ lvl ?

SPC is stronger than Dabura though
Gohan being MSSj or SSj2 in that fight seems to be one of the longest running debates in DBZ history. As of right now there doesn't seem to be a set answer so just go with whatever you think and base your answer off that.
Also guides don't help one bit, one guide says he was MSSj and another says he was SSj2.
Actually, that matter has been settled.
Is there a comment from Akira? Because if there isn't then no, it is not settled. If you look all over the web it's probably one of DBZs biggest debates with evidence for both sides and at this point it seems the only person to be able to answer the question is Toriyama himself.
He can answer it (and I assume he will at some point before he unfortunately passes), but fans won't take his word for it because of his faulty memory.
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ILLusioNaire
Dec 3 2011, 05:57 PM
Teen GohanZ
Nov 30 2011, 09:06 PM
DarkCore
Nov 30 2011, 09:00 PM
isn't Dabura ssj2 lvl and PC FPSSJ lvl ?

SPC is stronger than Dabura though
Gohan being MSSj or SSj2 in that fight seems to be one of the longest running debates in DBZ history. As of right now there doesn't seem to be a set answer so just go with whatever you think and base your answer off that.
Also guides don't help one bit, one guide says he was MSSj and another says he was SSj2.
Actually, that matter has been settled. Gohan is SSjin 1, for numerous reasons. One, change of hair. Two, no lightning. Three, energy intake was minimal for reviving Buu [as seen on the gauge] compared to Goku and Vegeta's energy intake. Four, Goku and Vegeta made themselves bleed after a couple hits. Gohan and Dabra didn't display this kind of power.

To comment further though on the actual subject, I highly doubt that Dabra was holding back power against Gohan. We didn't see him power up against Buu after getting pummeled into the mountain. If he was holding back power he would've released it after that. I make the argument also that he was not holding back effort. Why should he? His job is to get energy for Buu, and that means he needs to put a smackdown on Gohan. For what purpose is there in toying with him? Not to mention he was huffing and puffing at the end of his fight with Gohan during their struggle.

Furthermore, I don't see him toying around with Gohan because he initially invited them all to fight him at the same time. Which means he's prepared for a fight. But obviously this isn't to say that he had unseen power up his sleeve because, as I said, he didn't reveal this against Buu later on if he had said power. So it would've been completely erroneous and stupid on his part if the Saiyan trio accepted.

Dabra was confident in facing Gohan the second time because he knew he possessed the skills to defeat him easily. Gohan was a dull fighter at this point and it is quite frankly almost child's play for Dabra to out-maneuver Gohan, as seen in their fight. That's why Dabra was confident.

Agreed, especially with the last bit. Once you fight someone and find their weaknesses, of course you're going to be confident in beating them the second time around if they haven't trained to improve those weaknesses.
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Kamikaze Pyro
Dec 3 2011, 06:04 PM
Teen GohanZ
Dec 3 2011, 06:03 PM
ILLusioNaire
Dec 3 2011, 05:57 PM
Teen GohanZ
Nov 30 2011, 09:06 PM
DarkCore
Nov 30 2011, 09:00 PM
isn't Dabura ssj2 lvl and PC FPSSJ lvl ?

SPC is stronger than Dabura though
Gohan being MSSj or SSj2 in that fight seems to be one of the longest running debates in DBZ history. As of right now there doesn't seem to be a set answer so just go with whatever you think and base your answer off that.
Also guides don't help one bit, one guide says he was MSSj and another says he was SSj2.
Actually, that matter has been settled.
Is there a comment from Akira? Because if there isn't then no, it is not settled. If you look all over the web it's probably one of DBZs biggest debates with evidence for both sides and at this point it seems the only person to be able to answer the question is Toriyama himself.
He can answer it (and I assume he will at some point before he unfortunately passes), but fans won't take his word for it because of his faulty memory.
Well it'd be the only official answer we get. The most official way of finding out now, which is guidebooks, can't even decide themselves. Although I believe the more recent entry stated he was SSj2 while the earlier one stated otherwise. I may be wrong on that though.
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Teen GohanZ
Dec 3 2011, 06:06 PM
Kamikaze Pyro
Dec 3 2011, 06:04 PM
Teen GohanZ
Dec 3 2011, 06:03 PM
ILLusioNaire
Dec 3 2011, 05:57 PM
Teen GohanZ
Nov 30 2011, 09:06 PM
DarkCore
Nov 30 2011, 09:00 PM
isn't Dabura ssj2 lvl and PC FPSSJ lvl ?

SPC is stronger than Dabura though
Gohan being MSSj or SSj2 in that fight seems to be one of the longest running debates in DBZ history. As of right now there doesn't seem to be a set answer so just go with whatever you think and base your answer off that.
Also guides don't help one bit, one guide says he was MSSj and another says he was SSj2.
Actually, that matter has been settled.
Is there a comment from Akira? Because if there isn't then no, it is not settled. If you look all over the web it's probably one of DBZs biggest debates with evidence for both sides and at this point it seems the only person to be able to answer the question is Toriyama himself.
He can answer it (and I assume he will at some point before he unfortunately passes), but fans won't take his word for it because of his faulty memory.
Well it'd be the only official answer we get. The most official way of finding out now, which is guidebooks, can't even decide themselves. Although I believe the more recent entry stated he was SSj2 while the earlier one stated otherwise. I may be wrong on that though.
Nein, you're correct. D2 (the SSjin one) notes that he didn't use the form past the tournament, while D7 (the SSjin 2 one) obviously says he used it against Dabura. But because the books themselves deal with different issues in different manners, I don't know if we can 100% say that the later one trumps the earlier one.
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Wintergreen5000
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Teen GohanZ
Dec 3 2011, 06:03 PM
ILLusioNaire
Dec 3 2011, 05:57 PM
Teen GohanZ
Nov 30 2011, 09:06 PM
DarkCore
Nov 30 2011, 09:00 PM
isn't Dabura ssj2 lvl and PC FPSSJ lvl ?

SPC is stronger than Dabura though
Gohan being MSSj or SSj2 in that fight seems to be one of the longest running debates in DBZ history. As of right now there doesn't seem to be a set answer so just go with whatever you think and base your answer off that.
Also guides don't help one bit, one guide says he was MSSj and another says he was SSj2.
Actually, that matter has been settled.
Is there a comment from Akira? Because if there isn't then no, it is not settled. If you look all over the web it's probably one of DBZs biggest debates with evidence for both sides and at this point it seems the only person to be able to answer the question is Toriyama himself. It's really best to just avoid these debates :/ Some people (I've seen Lunar do it) answer Dabura versus with both sides, I would do that but I'm too lazy so I just make it obvious that it's my opinion instead of making it sound like fact.
Does there have to be a comment from Akira for us to make sense out of this? I hope not. Yes, there is huge controversy on the matter, a lot because people want to believe the Daiz, even though the Daiz seems to be mistaken on this matter what with the manga [want to see Toriyama's opinion of what level Gohan was? Look there. lol] showing him as a Super Saiyan an all... To me, Akira already gave us a confirmation of Gohan's level. It shouldn't be a big issue. But it is because a lot of people don't buy or read the manga and they get confused with all the anime-filler, and put too much faith in the guide books even though they sometimes contradict the manga, like in this case.

Edited by Wintergreen5000, Dec 3 2011, 07:10 PM.
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lunar2
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or, because some people actually look at the details in the manga, and see that ssj sometimes has lightning, ssj2 sometimes doesn't, and gohan has ssj2 hair.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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ILLusioNaire
Dec 3 2011, 07:09 PM
Teen GohanZ
Dec 3 2011, 06:03 PM
ILLusioNaire
Dec 3 2011, 05:57 PM
Teen GohanZ
Nov 30 2011, 09:06 PM
DarkCore
Nov 30 2011, 09:00 PM
isn't Dabura ssj2 lvl and PC FPSSJ lvl ?

SPC is stronger than Dabura though
Gohan being MSSj or SSj2 in that fight seems to be one of the longest running debates in DBZ history. As of right now there doesn't seem to be a set answer so just go with whatever you think and base your answer off that.
Also guides don't help one bit, one guide says he was MSSj and another says he was SSj2.
Actually, that matter has been settled.
Is there a comment from Akira? Because if there isn't then no, it is not settled. If you look all over the web it's probably one of DBZs biggest debates with evidence for both sides and at this point it seems the only person to be able to answer the question is Toriyama himself. It's really best to just avoid these debates :/ Some people (I've seen Lunar do it) answer Dabura versus with both sides, I would do that but I'm too lazy so I just make it obvious that it's my opinion instead of making it sound like fact.
Does there have to be a comment from Akira for us to make sense out of this? I hope not. Yes, there is huge controversy on the matter, a lot because people want to believe the Daiz, even though the Daiz seems to be mistaken on this matter what with the manga [want to see Toriyama's opinion of what level Gohan was? Look there. lol] showing him as a Super Saiyan an all... To me, Akira already gave us a confirmation of Gohan's level. It shouldn't be a big issue. But it is because a lot of people don't buy or read the manga and they get confused with all the anime-filler, and put too much faith in the guide books even though they sometimes contradict the manga, like in this case.

I own all 42 volumes of the Viz manga and have read pretty much all of Herms guide translations for strength related lines. It's these things that made me believe he was SSj2 in the first place. Well those and the obvious fact that Gohan was in a life or death situation so it'd make more sense to use SSj2. The Daiz entry is literally the last thing I'd ever use to prove my point due to contradiction in the earlier guide, however the fact it says that does give me more reason to believe he was SSj2. I'm never going to tell anyone that it only says he was SSj2 in the guides but to me, personally, later information is always the more valid one since things can be retconned. Of course you don't have to believe everything in guide books at all, if it wasn't directly stated by Toriyama then Guidebooks can be taken either way imo.

But yeah long story short, there's too much evidence for me to believe he was SSj2 to just dismiss it all cos he had no sparks.
Edited by Clearin, Dec 3 2011, 07:18 PM.
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Wintergreen5000
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Teen GohanZ
Dec 3 2011, 07:17 PM
ILLusioNaire
Dec 3 2011, 07:09 PM
Teen GohanZ
Dec 3 2011, 06:03 PM
ILLusioNaire
Dec 3 2011, 05:57 PM
Teen GohanZ
Nov 30 2011, 09:06 PM
DarkCore
Nov 30 2011, 09:00 PM
isn't Dabura ssj2 lvl and PC FPSSJ lvl ?

SPC is stronger than Dabura though
Gohan being MSSj or SSj2 in that fight seems to be one of the longest running debates in DBZ history. As of right now there doesn't seem to be a set answer so just go with whatever you think and base your answer off that.
Also guides don't help one bit, one guide says he was MSSj and another says he was SSj2.
Actually, that matter has been settled.
Is there a comment from Akira? Because if there isn't then no, it is not settled. If you look all over the web it's probably one of DBZs biggest debates with evidence for both sides and at this point it seems the only person to be able to answer the question is Toriyama himself. It's really best to just avoid these debates :/ Some people (I've seen Lunar do it) answer Dabura versus with both sides, I would do that but I'm too lazy so I just make it obvious that it's my opinion instead of making it sound like fact.
Does there have to be a comment from Akira for us to make sense out of this? I hope not. Yes, there is huge controversy on the matter, a lot because people want to believe the Daiz, even though the Daiz seems to be mistaken on this matter what with the manga [want to see Toriyama's opinion of what level Gohan was? Look there. lol] showing him as a Super Saiyan an all... To me, Akira already gave us a confirmation of Gohan's level. It shouldn't be a big issue. But it is because a lot of people don't buy or read the manga and they get confused with all the anime-filler, and put too much faith in the guide books even though they sometimes contradict the manga, like in this case.

I own all 42 volumes of the Viz manga and have read pretty much all of Herms guide translations for strength related lines. It's these things that made me believe he was SSj2 in the first place. Well those and the obvious fact that Gohan was in a life or death situation so it'd make more sense to use SSj2. The Daiz entry is literally the last thing I'd ever use to prove my point due to contradiction in the earlier guide, however the fact it says that does give me more reason to believe he was SSj2. I'm never going to tell anyone that it only says he was SSj2 in the guides but to me, personally, later information is always the more valid one since things can be retconned. Of course you don't have to believe everything in guide books at all, if it wasn't directly stated by Toriyama then Guidebooks can be taken either way imo.

But yeah long story short, there's too much evidence for me to believe he was SSj2 to just dismiss it all cos he had no sparks.
It's not just because Toriyama didn't add sparks in his aura, even though he did add in sparks for every SSjin 2. There may have been the occasional panel where we don't see the sparks, what because it's a close-up or he genuinely made a mistake, but Toriyama has never drawn a full fight with a SSjin 2 without the sparks for all or even half the panels, as you are suggesting he has or may have done for Gohan vs. Dabra.

There is also the hair issue. Gohan's hairstyle was changed when the 25th Budokai Saga started. So, unless he has sparks in his aura, we can't say for sure that he is SSjin 2, unless Toriyama made a humungous mistake, which is, when looking at his record of drawing sparks for SSjin 2s, highly unlikey.
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Victorious
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If Cell uses his real speed like he did on MSSJ Gohan, Cell wins hands down. If Cell uses the speed he used on Goku..I think it's a close fight..Dabura might actually have the advantage.

Regarding Teen Gohan vs Dabura....Goku's first statement is irrelevant...Goku said Dabura was" a lot stronger than he thought"..this was after watching Dabura struggle with a weakened SSJ Teen Gohan.

Dabura >= SSJ Teen Gohan >> Dabura (Goku estimate)..

Victorious' fan made Dragon Ball Z Battle Power (Sentō-ryoku) list
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ILLusioNaire
Dec 3 2011, 07:25 PM
There is also the hair issue. Gohan's hairstyle was changed when the 25th Budokai Saga started. So, unless he has sparks in his aura, we can't say for sure that he is SSjin 2, unless Toriyama made a humungous mistake, which is, when looking at his record of drawing sparks for SSjin 2s, highly unlikey.
To be honest the hair issue isn't quite as hard as it seems to be. MSSj Hair has a thick, short bang on the front of his head, SSj2 has a thin long one. There's been pictures shown before. I actually have them saved but I don't really wanna post them because I really hate this debate i've been in it so many times and it's basically me saying "I think he was SSj2" vs "No he was MSSj" and I'm really bored of it.

I think he was SSj2. You know he was MSSj. We'll just answer Dabura verus topics with these mindsets and not bash each other? Is that okay?
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Wintergreen5000
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Teen GohanZ
Dec 3 2011, 07:30 PM
ILLusioNaire
Dec 3 2011, 07:25 PM
There is also the hair issue. Gohan's hairstyle was changed when the 25th Budokai Saga started. So, unless he has sparks in his aura, we can't say for sure that he is SSjin 2, unless Toriyama made a humungous mistake, which is, when looking at his record of drawing sparks for SSjin 2s, highly unlikey.
To be honest the hair issue isn't quite as hard as it seems to be. MSSj Hair has a thick, short bang on the front of his head, SSj2 has a thin long one. There's been pictures shown before. I actually have them saved but I don't really wanna post them because I really hate this debate i've been in it so many times and it's basically me saying "I think he was SSj2" vs "No he was MSSj" and I'm really bored of it.

I think he was SSj2. You know he was MSSj. We'll just answer Dabura verus topics with these mindsets and not bash each other? Is that okay?
Look at Volume 21 page 141 and page 167 and tell me that his SSjin 2 hair bang is longer than his MSSjin one. They are practically the same length.

What I will agree with you with is SSjin 2 hair is more refined, sharper, than SSjin 1 hair. If you look in volume 21 page 166 you will see Toriyama emphasized the back of Gohan's hair becoming much more spiked and refined than before upon transforming into the SSjin 2 form. If you look a little bit later into Volume 22, pages 127, 129, and 135, all areas of the fight showing the back of Gohan's head and hair, it does NOT show this distinctive quality, which WOULD indicate a SSjin 2 Gohan if such were the case. Not only do we see that difference, but his aura throughout the fight is undeniably lack-luster enough to not be SSjin 2 material, not to mention the lack of sparks...

If you don't want to debate anymore, then stop saying Gohan is SSjin 2. Otherwise, I will not stop debating this.
Edited by Wintergreen5000, Dec 3 2011, 07:52 PM.
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Kruegs Outlandish
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Gohan was SSJ2. Keep going. trolols are born from this. Or make yet another Gohan SSJ topic is discussion, and then watch Super Gohan come in and destroy it plainly.
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ILLusioNaire
Dec 3 2011, 07:51 PM
If you don't want to debate anymore, then stop saying Gohan is SSjin 2. Otherwise, I will not stop debating this.
I enter Dabura topics and state my opinion. It's only when people reply to me telling me I'm wrong that I reply back. If I really don't want to debate I'll just ignore you when you start the debates so that I won't enter the debates in the first place >_>
Edited by Clearin, Dec 3 2011, 08:29 PM.
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Wintergreen5000
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You guys misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm no troll biz, nor do I intend on ever being one. What I am saying is that if you argue that Gohan is SSjin 2 against Dabra in any topic then I will be there to counter your arguments. That's it. I'm not trying to make a big deal out of what I said. I'm just saying what I feel, because I too have debated on this subject many times and I'm passionate about the topic.
Edited by Wintergreen5000, Dec 4 2011, 04:30 AM.
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