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MSSJ Gohan (Buu Saga) vs MSSJ Goku (Cell Games)
Topic Started: Nov 21 2011, 03:01 AM (3,127 Views)
Mihawk
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It's obviously not a fair call because Goku was saying that Gohan can beat Cell. So are you saying that Cell agreed that Gohan MSSJ > Cell? No, that's just picking and choosing what you want to hear if you say that he agreed that Gohan > Goku. The way I see it Cell was only at the Cell games to have fun, and considered Goku to be the most possible fun. He didn't even think Gohan would be as much fun as Goku in his current state (MSSJ) so he continually tried to fire him up. But I said I'm not gonna argue a lot of times so this is my last post :p

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Illustrious
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I meant to say far call, by the way, meaning that he wouldn't ever have a chance at matching him. Cell wasn't really good at gauging power, either, as he didn't realize his "full power" wouldn't be enough when he witnessed his children being slain by SSJ2 Gohan.
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Wintergreen5000
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WCZE

illstand1
Nov 21 2011, 06:40 PM
No he didn't actually but I'm not gonna argue, just read the quote yourself. All that Cell says is that Goku wasn't bluffing that Gohan was strong.
You say you don't want to argue? Well guess what? We're gonna argue. lol

DBZ Volume 18: Pg, 98

Goku: "What do you say Gohan? Was our battle too tough for you?"

Gohan: "Well...no... B-but neither of you was fighting for REAL yet, right?!"

Let's stop right there. Gohan here confirms that it didn't look like Cell and Goku were really fighting, indicating that Gohan is stronger than Goku. This isn't subjective.

Goku: "I don't know about Cell, but I was doing my best. So to YOU it looked like I wasn't really trying, huh?"

Gohan: "..."

Piccolo: "Is that true Gohan?"

Gohan: "Y-yeah..."

There you have it! This isn't interpretive here. By Gohan's admission, Goku and Cell didn't look to really be fighting, even though they were going all out. Gohan is superior.

A little later we have Goku giving Cell a Senzu to revive his power. By your logic Goku is stronger than Gohan, but Cell is stronger than Goku. If Goku didn't have full faith in Gohan and believe him to be as strong as he is, which is the strongest at this point, Goku would indeed be sending Gohan to his death by giving Cell a Senzu. This wouldn't make sense. He gives Cell a senzu because he truly believes that Cell needs it. Now, while it's stupid to help your enemy in reality, Goku was trying to make a point to Cell.

After Gohan powers up:

Cell: "Perhaps what Son Goku said... wasn't just a bluff afterall!"

Of course, Cell is referring to the time when Goku states that after trying his hand against Cell he knows that Gohan can win [meaning Gohan is superior to Goku] against him. So when Cell states that Goku wasn't just bluffing afterall, he is affirming Goku's claim to be true, of course with the objection that Gohan can actually win, since Gohan lacks the ruthlessness needed to fight a battle against Cell.

And just to put the icing on the cake:

DBZ Volume 18 Page 93:

Cell: "Do you mean to tell me there's somebody stronger than you...AND me?!"

Goku: "Yup."


YUP.
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Great post, Ill. I completely agree. You don't even need Piccolo's quote later on. You already proved Gohan was stronger.

A lot of people brush Gohan's quote off because he was seemingly amazed at Goku's power on the Lookout, but it could've been Gohan just thinking, "Dad's always been the strongest, and this is only about half of his power. Maybe he's hiding a lot more than I think. He always does seem to have a trick up his sleeve." I mean, if that was his thought process, it'd be supported by the manga. Later when Goku finally gives up against Cell, Gohan was probably thinking, "Dad's got a plan. He wouldn't just give up like that. He's gotta be hiding something," which is probably why he thought Goku wasn't really giving it his all, even though he was. Gohan was expecting something amazing from Goku, but all he got was a turd, and that implies at least a decent-sized gap between the two IMO.
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Muhahahaha
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Goku wins with instant kamehameha.Gohan has no skill in any saga imo.
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Cocoman
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Badabing!

ILLusioNaire
Nov 21 2011, 07:07 PM
illstand1
Nov 21 2011, 06:40 PM
No he didn't actually but I'm not gonna argue, just read the quote yourself. All that Cell says is that Goku wasn't bluffing that Gohan was strong.
You say you don't want to argue? Well guess what? We're gonna argue. lol

DBZ Volume 18: Pg, 98

Goku: "What do you say Gohan? Was our battle too tough for you?"

Gohan: "Well...no... B-but neither of you was fighting for REAL yet, right?!"

Let's stop right there. Gohan here confirms that it didn't look like Cell and Goku were really fighting, indicating that Gohan is stronger than Goku. This isn't subjective.

Goku: "I don't know about Cell, but I was doing my best. So to YOU it looked like I wasn't really trying, huh?"

Gohan: "..."

Piccolo: "Is that true Gohan?"

Gohan: "Y-yeah..."

There you have it! This isn't interpretive here. By Gohan's admission, Goku and Cell didn't look to really be fighting, even though they were going all out. Gohan is superior.

A little later we have Goku giving Cell a Senzu to revive his power. By your logic Goku is stronger than Gohan, but Cell is stronger than Goku. If Goku didn't have full faith in Gohan and believe him to be as strong as he is, which is the strongest at this point, Goku would indeed be sending Gohan to his death by giving Cell a Senzu. This wouldn't make sense. He gives Cell a senzu because he truly believes that Cell needs it. Now, while it's stupid to help your enemy in reality, Goku was trying to make a point to Cell.

After Gohan powers up:

Cell: "Perhaps what Son Goku said... wasn't just a bluff afterall!"

Of course, Cell is referring to the time when Goku states that after trying his hand against Cell he knows that Gohan can win [meaning Gohan is superior to Goku] against him. So when Cell states that Goku wasn't just bluffing afterall, he is affirming Goku's claim to be true, of course with the objection that Gohan can actually win, since Gohan lacks the ruthlessness needed to fight a battle against Cell.

And just to put the icing on the cake:

DBZ Volume 18 Page 93:

Cell: "Do you mean to tell me there's somebody stronger than you...AND me?!"

Goku: "Yup."


YUP.
YUP .
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I don't see how he wouldn't have skill after being freshly trained by Goku in the RoSaT.
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Wintergreen5000
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WCZE

You're most certainly right Kami Vegeta. Gohan doesn't show surprise but perplexity. He believed his father's power to be much greater than that.

To Muhahahaha - Are you saying Future Gohan has no skill? lol And what Kami said.
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Cocoman
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Badabing!

Not only that, Teen Gohan shouldn't be weaker Kid Gohan in his MSSjin form.

Remember, Gohan's rage boost from the Cell games onwards is implied to be SSjin2 only and that is what made SSjin2 Kid Gohan>>SSjin2 Teen Gohan because Teen Gohan couldn't draw power from his anger.

Supporting quotes;

Daizenshuu 2-Story Guide
Growing Up.
HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT
First Appears: Vol. 36-42
Many years after the battle with Cell, Gohan had become a high school student. Due to either Chi Chi's influence or him neglecting to train, his strength hadn't changed since he was a boy.


Daizenshuu 2-Story Guide
Growing Up.
HIGH SCHOOL ERA SUPER SAIYAN 2
First Appears: Vol. 37
During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell.


Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264)
P4.4-6
Goku: "Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…"


Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264)
P3.1-2
Gohan: "I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…"

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Victorious
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Close fight IMO. But Goku wins because of his superior techniques and skill.

I think Pikkon, MSSJ Goku, SSJ teen Gohan, and Dabura are all real close to one another. All around the same power.

Victorious' fan made Dragon Ball Z Battle Power (Sentō-ryoku) list
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Victorious
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Illustrious
Nov 21 2011, 06:53 PM
I meant to say far call, by the way, meaning that he wouldn't ever have a chance at matching him. Cell wasn't really good at gauging power, either, as he didn't realize his "full power" wouldn't be enough when he witnessed his children being slain by SSJ2 Gohan.
That just implies Cell's full power could slay the Cell Juniors easily as well.

Cell has always shown ability to gauge powers appropriately.
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Kruegs Outlandish
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I have a theory.

THEORY
 
Whenever ILLusioNaire decides to post, it's pretty beast.

Goku says Gohan is stronger than him, and says that Gohan will be Cell. Cell says that Goku isn't lying completely.

If Goku only said two things then we can pretty much figure out what Cell thought he was lying about.

Cell thinks: "Hmm... is Gohan strong enough to beat me? HA HA ! No. But stronger than Goku... ?"
Cell speaks: "Damn, Goku ain't all-the-way lying!"

And Cell doesn't have Gohan's rage in mind until Gohan says something about it.

We win!

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At Gohan power:

I don't think he was any weaker; IMO, Gohan was SSJ2 at Dabra, but he just was at full SSJ2 power; some of it was suppressed. Teh same argument could be made if he were only SSJ.
Edited by Kruegs Outlandish, Nov 22 2011, 03:17 AM.
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Ajith
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WOW! The title says MSSJ Gohan vs MSSJ Goku. Goku wins lol.

Making Cell as the reference plane here is inappropriate for Goku send Gohan to versus Cell after witnessing his dormant power "which could preceed the limits of the Super Saiyan, which in this case was SSJ2".

Between a MSSJ battle, Goku wins. Besides, Gohan doesn't establish imprssive feats as MSSJ as Goku did like Instant Kamehameha etc.
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Ajith
Nov 22 2011, 07:47 AM
WOW! The title says MSSJ Gohan vs MSSJ Goku. Goku wins lol.

Making Cell as the reference plane here is inappropriate for Goku send Gohan to versus Cell after witnessing his dormant power "which could preceed the limits of the Super Saiyan, which in this case was SSJ2".

Between a MSSJ battle, Goku wins. Besides, Gohan doesn't establish imprssive feats as MSSJ as Goku did like Instant Kamehameha etc.
Gohan's fight as a MSSjin was short as balls. Goku's was much longer because Gohan didn't want to fight.
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ILLusioNaire
Nov 21 2011, 07:07 PM
illstand1
Nov 21 2011, 06:40 PM
No he didn't actually but I'm not gonna argue, just read the quote yourself. All that Cell says is that Goku wasn't bluffing that Gohan was strong.
You say you don't want to argue? Well guess what? We're gonna argue. lol

DBZ Volume 18: Pg, 98

Goku: "What do you say Gohan? Was our battle too tough for you?"

Gohan: "Well...no... B-but neither of you was fighting for REAL yet, right?!"

Let's stop right there. Gohan here confirms that it didn't look like Cell and Goku were really fighting, indicating that Gohan is stronger than Goku. This isn't subjective.

Goku: "I don't know about Cell, but I was doing my best. So to YOU it looked like I wasn't really trying, huh?"

Gohan: "..."

Piccolo: "Is that true Gohan?"

Gohan: "Y-yeah..."

There you have it! This isn't interpretive here. By Gohan's admission, Goku and Cell didn't look to really be fighting, even though they were going all out. Gohan is superior.

A little later we have Goku giving Cell a Senzu to revive his power. By your logic Goku is stronger than Gohan, but Cell is stronger than Goku. If Goku didn't have full faith in Gohan and believe him to be as strong as he is, which is the strongest at this point, Goku would indeed be sending Gohan to his death by giving Cell a Senzu. This wouldn't make sense. He gives Cell a senzu because he truly believes that Cell needs it. Now, while it's stupid to help your enemy in reality, Goku was trying to make a point to Cell.

After Gohan powers up:

Cell: "Perhaps what Son Goku said... wasn't just a bluff afterall!"

Of course, Cell is referring to the time when Goku states that after trying his hand against Cell he knows that Gohan can win [meaning Gohan is superior to Goku] against him. So when Cell states that Goku wasn't just bluffing afterall, he is affirming Goku's claim to be true, of course with the objection that Gohan can actually win, since Gohan lacks the ruthlessness needed to fight a battle against Cell.

And just to put the icing on the cake:

DBZ Volume 18 Page 93:

Cell: "Do you mean to tell me there's somebody stronger than you...AND me?!"

Goku: "Yup."


YUP.
You missed the very first thing that hinted that Gohan was stronger than Goku.
Right after Goku goes max Gohan says "...Why is everyone so amazed? Of course Dad's Great...But..."
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