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| MSSJ Gohan (Movie 8) Vs. Initial Perfect Cell | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 11 2011, 04:06 PM (1,025 Views) | |
| SSJ Ranulf | Nov 12 2011, 09:21 PM Post #16 |
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Goku did better than Gohan did, as I remeber it. He withstood more attacks. Sure, nobody could hurt him, similar to Goku and Piccolo's efforts vs. 50% Frieza, but no one would deny that Goku did better as he lasted longer. Yes, you could make the case the Frieza was playing around, but that argument seems to be often used when there is nothing else to fall back on: i.e, it's sometimes used as a cop-out. For the battle of Vegeta and Recoome, this is quite different. Vegeta took more hits and launched his own offensive, while Gohan battled with a Recoome that was attacked by Vegeta, cheap shotted by Krillin so that his onw attack knocked his teeth out, and still did far worse than Vegeta, falling in some 3 hits. I just don't feel there is strong evidence that Gohan > Goku in the context of this movie, while there is evidence that Goku > Gohan, shown as him withstanding more attacks. While I agree that Broly was likely trying to torment Goku, and thus would have gladly tried to take down Gohan as quickly as possible, I don't think he'd have held back at all against Goku. Imo, Broly was trying to kill all of them as quickly as possible, and didn't use any extra power against Gohan (unless he used a massive ki attack against him, which I don't remember). |
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Nov 13 2011, 06:10 PM Post #17 |
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Broly one shots Goku if he wants too.....he was at a level where he could tank Goku's KHH to the face without even so much as taking a scratch..that puts LSSJ Broly way above even Full Power Perfect Cell right there easily.. there's nothing to put Goku or Gohan over one another based on feats...so the statement Kaio-sama makes should hold...there's no reason to nerf Gohan IMO. Almost every single movie when Goku is the strongest he's always stated to be. Goku survived hits from Oozaru Vegeta who was 20x stronger than him, 50% Freeza who was 20x stronger than him...it's called toying around/torturing by the superior opponent. Freeza could have one shotted Kaioken x 10 Goku, much less base Goku whom he's 20x stronger than. Edited by Victorious, Nov 13 2011, 06:13 PM.
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| Victorious' fan made Dragon Ball Z Battle Power (Sentō-ryoku) list | |
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| SSJ Ranulf | Nov 13 2011, 07:37 PM Post #18 |
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Personally, I disagree. I don't think tanking a Kamehameha necessarily means he could kill Goku in one strike: I just don't think we see any/many examples of it in dragon ball (where someone who tanks instantly kills there opponent). And myself, I think FP Cell could tank MSSJ Goku's Kamehameha, but that is strictly a matter of opinion and I don't intend to debate it. I don't think that Goku not being stated to be the strongest really matters: I just don't feel it's important. I just get the impression Kaio was trying to make sure Goku knew that RSSJ Broly > Z-Fighters >> MSSJ Goku, instead of going into it with the mistaken idea that Z-Fighters >> RSSJ Broly >= MSSJ Goku, as that could lead Goku to make some foolish assumptions and hurt there chances of winning. Both ideas are logical and should stand as different interpretations of a statement: I don't think one needs to be right. IMO, just saying that someone is toying around isn't everything. I think that Goku is extremely durable, and is able to survive attacks that should by all means kill him. Same with Vegeta (who withstood attacks from Kid Buu in frickin' base). Sure, call it hax if you want, but that's not an in story explanation. Where as in story, there is no reason to say Goku isn't extraordinarily resilient and able to survive attacks from people worlds above him. I don't know, the more I look at it, the more it seems nothing is set in stone. I'm just going by feats, where I feel that Goku withstood more damage than Gohan did, and I take it to mean Goku > Gohan. Gohan really did no better than Piccolo/Trunks against Broly, did he? So I think he's on there level, and Goku is slightly above it. Still, I can understand where you're coming from. |
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| + Pyrus | Nov 14 2011, 05:26 AM Post #19 |
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Imperfect Cell (humans absorbed) tanked Piccolo's Light Grenade without a scratch and took down both him and #17 (who doesn't lose power/stamina) in two hits each with no effort put in whatsoever. Piccolo's Light Grenade was strong enough to make #17 hit the deck in fear, and Cell tanked it completely. I really do believe that if Cell wanted to, he could've killed Piccolo and #17 in one hit. The same goes for Broly. He tanked Goku's Kamehameha point-blank, so going by the theory that the Kamehameha at least doubles the user's power (which I don't subscribe to), that would put Broly at least 2.5x stronger than Goku. 30% is enough to whoop someone, so 2.5x should easily be enough to one-shot them. If Broly was truly trying to kill all of them as quickly as possible, he would've done so. It was certainly in his power. Going solely by feats, Trunks was stronger than Vegeta. Is anybody willing to agree to that?
Edited by Pyrus, Nov 14 2011, 05:28 AM.
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| SSJ Ranulf | Nov 14 2011, 06:05 AM Post #20 |
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I honestly don't think Cell could have killed them if he wanted to, but that's just me. He broke Piccolo's neck and blasted through him, and still didn't kill him. Sure, I think if he went bat**** crazy he could kill either one of them in about a pages worth of panels, but I don't think he could have killed them in one hit. Are there examples of major/fairly important characters being oneshotted? I don't buy the theory of energy attacks always massively multiplying ones power: Piccolo easily withstood Goku's Super Kamehameha, off the top of my head. If they always multiply one's power, why would Vegeta's Final Crash (video game name lol) against Recoome have been so ineffectual? Would it have only gotten a 1.15-1.2x increase? I just don't buy that. In general, I just think being x2 (or possibly less) of someone means you can tank them pretty much without a problem, so I've always had LSSJ Broly about x2 of Cell Games Goku. And I'm not saying Broly wouldn't have totally tore them to atoms in a few moments if he'd wanted to, but I don't think he was holding back heavily on all of his attacks. Do you really think he was thinking something along the lines of this: "I want to hurt you very much, Kakorot. However, I do not seek your death yet. Let's see... I imagine that you could withstand many strikes of .538x my strength, so I will only attack you with attacks at that level, rather than any more, as they would cause you to vanish instantly." Exaggerated beyond reason, sure, but I think the concept stands: Broly might be using lazy punches, but I don't think he would be holding his power down to have or something. Did Trunks really do better than Vegeta? I mean... my god what was wrong with this movie. Maybe Trunks = Vegeta, and Vegeta just used up much of his power on the offensive or something? |
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| + Pyrus | Nov 14 2011, 08:12 AM Post #21 |
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I don't think he was trying to kill Piccolo, though. Piccolo was just in the way of absorbing #17, not any actual threat anymore.
Unless you count Tenshinhan being one-shotted by Gotenks-Boo, not that I can recall right now. Every fight, there's always someone toying with someone, or they're equal.
I don't buy it either. I was just saying.
Well, he would want to torture Goku as much as possible before killing him, I'd assume. He can sense chi, so he'd know what level to restrain himself to in order to accomplish such an objective.
Yes, Vegeta got one-shotted by Broly into a huge slab, while Trunks survived multiple hits. I wouldn't say Vegeta used up much energy either. All he did was transform, fly to Broly, kick him, punch him in the chin, and blast him about twice. I doubt at his level, he'd have wasted more than 0.000002% of his energy with that kind of assault. |
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| SSJ Ranulf | Nov 14 2011, 11:12 PM Post #22 |
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I think Cell was trying to kill Piccolo, but I can see why you think he wouldn't: it's totally in character for Cell to think Piccolo is so far bellow him he would be worth the time. But I still think that means it would have taken Cell a good deal of effort to kill Piccolo, hence why just used lazy attacks instead. We could count Tien vs Buu, but that gap is anywhere from x200 (I wonder if someone could make it that small...) to x100,000,000,000, so I don't really think we can use it. 16 did get oneshotted by Semi-Cell, so I guess that counts. I had no idea Broly was a chi sensor. In the English version, he seemed like a berserker and I don't think he would have been able to restrain himself heavily. Lazy attacks for sure, but not blows at 25% of his power. Did he seem crazy in Japanese? Well crap... I've thought Vegeta = Trunks in that movie, but this seems pretty crazy. I could say that Trunks got a zenkai when Piccolo gave him the senzu, but I find that idea to be more crap than Mr. Buu = Gray Buu. I'll have to think more on this one, and possibly watch the fight again. |
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