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How big do you think the Super Saiyan 2 multiplier is?; Super Saiyan 2 multiplier
Topic Started: Nov 10 2011, 10:50 PM (3,627 Views)
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Weskur
Nov 12 2011, 10:25 PM
Victorious
Nov 12 2011, 10:20 PM
Cell was a step or two ahead of Goku, and can't even touch MSSJ Gohan without using his real speed.
Cell didn't use his real speed against MSSJ, that would mean he was FP already if he used his real speed. He just kicked it up a notch. And again Gohan learned all of Cell's moves, Goku didn't, Gohan had an advantage, Goku didn't.
Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

So yes, Cell used his real full speed.
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SSJ Ranulf
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Weskur
Nov 12 2011, 10:59 PM
Vegeta was around equal to the Cell jrs, he actually held his own, I don't think they were that strong.
Oh yeah I think full powered MSSJ Goku would beat all 7, to be honest. The thing matters is that Goku thought that Gohan had unleashed his real power, and that should be >> Goku considering that Goku thought that Cell was > himself.
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There are a few differing opinions on the Cell kids. The guidebooks have them equal to Vegeta and Trunks in one part, and then equal to Cell in a few other parts.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Viz Chapter 213 : The Little Cells
Page 163

''All right, Cell Juniors!! Enough fooling around!! You can kill them now if you want!!''

The Cell Kids were fooling around the whole time; they weren't taking the fight seriously.

Cell Kids (Surpressed) : 1,750,000,000 - 2,000,000,000
Cell Kids (Full Power) : 4,000,000,000

SSJ Vegeta : 1,850,000,000 - 2,000,000,000
SSJ Trunks : 1,800,000,000


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SSJ Ranulf
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Mirai Trunks
Nov 13 2011, 12:36 AM
Viz Chapter 213 : The Little Cells
Page 163

''All right, Cell Juniors!! Enough fooling around!! You can kill them now if you want!!''

The Cell Kids were fooling around the whole time; they weren't taking the fight seriously.

Cell Kids (Surpressed) : 1,750,000,000 - 2,000,000,000
Cell Kids (Full Power) : 4,000,000,000

SSJ Vegeta : 1,850,000,000 - 2,000,000,000
SSJ Trunks : 1,800,000,000


I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm curious: you think the Cell Jr.s were stronger than MSSJ Goku?

It's implied that Vegeta is stronger than 50% MSSJ Goku at the Cell Games. He's confident he can beat Cell and Goku, and feels that he's regained his superiority (if I remember this all correctly). So he should be over 50% of Goku, perhaps around 55-60%. And to say that the Cell. Jr.s had twice his power would put them above MSSJ Goku comfortably, and possibly on or above the level of MSSJ Gohan, based on where one has Vegeta/Gohan.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

SSJ Ranulf
Nov 13 2011, 12:40 AM
Mirai Trunks
Nov 13 2011, 12:36 AM
Viz Chapter 213 : The Little Cells
Page 163

''All right, Cell Juniors!! Enough fooling around!! You can kill them now if you want!!''

The Cell Kids were fooling around the whole time; they weren't taking the fight seriously.

Cell Kids (Surpressed) : 1,750,000,000 - 2,000,000,000
Cell Kids (Full Power) : 4,000,000,000

SSJ Vegeta : 1,850,000,000 - 2,000,000,000
SSJ Trunks : 1,800,000,000


I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm curious: you think the Cell Jr.s were stronger than MSSJ Goku?

It's implied that Vegeta is stronger than 50% MSSJ Goku at the Cell Games. He's confident he can beat Cell and Goku, and feels that he's regained his superiority (if I remember this all correctly). So he should be over 50% of Goku, perhaps around 55-60%. And to say that the Cell. Jr.s had twice his power would put them above MSSJ Goku comfortably, and possibly on or above the level of MSSJ Gohan, based on where one has Vegeta/Gohan.
Yeah, Vegeta's definately above 50% MSSJ Goku.

I personally put the Cell Kids at Cell's Full Power, or just below it.

MSSJ Gohan = Cell Kid (Full Power) imo
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Mirai Trunks
Nov 13 2011, 12:42 AM
SSJ Ranulf
Nov 13 2011, 12:40 AM
Mirai Trunks
Nov 13 2011, 12:36 AM
Viz Chapter 213 : The Little Cells
Page 163

''All right, Cell Juniors!! Enough fooling around!! You can kill them now if you want!!''

The Cell Kids were fooling around the whole time; they weren't taking the fight seriously.

Cell Kids (Surpressed) : 1,750,000,000 - 2,000,000,000
Cell Kids (Full Power) : 4,000,000,000

SSJ Vegeta : 1,850,000,000 - 2,000,000,000
SSJ Trunks : 1,800,000,000


I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm curious: you think the Cell Jr.s were stronger than MSSJ Goku?

It's implied that Vegeta is stronger than 50% MSSJ Goku at the Cell Games. He's confident he can beat Cell and Goku, and feels that he's regained his superiority (if I remember this all correctly). So he should be over 50% of Goku, perhaps around 55-60%. And to say that the Cell. Jr.s had twice his power would put them above MSSJ Goku comfortably, and possibly on or above the level of MSSJ Gohan, based on where one has Vegeta/Gohan.
Yeah, Vegeta's definately above 50% MSSJ Goku.

I personally put the Cell Kids at Cell's Full Power, or just below it.

MSSJ Gohan = Cell Kid (Full Power) imo
So you have FP Cell equal to MSSjin Gohan?
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Now that I think about it, I'd probably put them lower than FPP Cell, on MSSJ Gohan's level for sure.

Thing is with the Cell Kids, we never see their full power. This is all we see :

Cell Kids (Surpressed) > Z-Fighters

SSJ2 Gohan > Cell Kids (Full Power?)


SSJ2 Gohan >> Perfect Cell (Full Power) > MSSJ Gohan = Cell Kids > MSSJ Goku > SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Trunks
Edited by Yu Narukami, Nov 13 2011, 12:48 AM.
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SSJ Ranulf
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Yeah, I personally think the Jr.s were 70-75% of MSSJ Goku, and fought the Z, like Vegeta, at around 60% of Gku's power. However, they could be very mighty. But I can't imagine them on FP Cell level, or anywhere close to it. He saw Gohan pwn them, and he was still sure he would win. The Z saw Gohan pwn them, and they were surprised/impressed at Cell's full power, so he should at least be comparable to SSJ2 Gohan (initial).
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Kruegs Outlandish
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I'm thinking the Juniors full strength were around Cell's power at Goku

statemax (in base)suppress (in base)
(FP) SSJ50< 1
SSJ2100[65, 75]
Edited by Kruegs Outlandish, Nov 13 2011, 06:44 AM.
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Victorious
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Weskur
Nov 12 2011, 10:25 PM
Victorious
Nov 12 2011, 10:20 PM
Cell was a step or two ahead of Goku, and can't even touch MSSJ Gohan without using his real speed.
Cell didn't use his real speed against MSSJ, that would mean he was FP already if he used his real speed. He just kicked it up a notch. And again Gohan learned all of Cell's moves, Goku didn't, Gohan had an advantage, Goku didn't.
The "kick it up a notch" is a dub line. In the manga he says he's going to go all out in speed, which obviously means he was holding back his speed against Goku...even in that suppression he was fighting at. Goku fights Cell and Cell is "a step or two ahead" of Goku and Goku quits since obviously he realizes he's inferior...Cell then fights Gohan and he can't even lay a finger on him until he increases his speed. But yeah obviously his true speed can only be used when he's at full power which he didnt show against MSSJ Gohan. But anyway...

Powered up suppression Cell (real speed) = MSSJ Gohan > powered up suppression Cell (holding back speed) > MSSJ Goku.

Something like this works IMO

Perfect Cell
~ powered up suppression : 125
----- ki/power : 125
----speed against 100% MSSJ Goku and initial MSSJ Gohan : 110
----full speed against MSSJ Gohan : 125

Goku
~ MSSJ 100% : 100
-----ki/power : 100
-----speed : 100

MSSJ Gohan
~ MSSJ : 125
-----ki/power: 125
-----speed : 125

But anyway, If Cell is a step or two ahead of Goku and can't even touch MSSJ Gohan at the level he fought Goku at there's a pretty big gap between MSSJ Goku and MSSJ Gohan. Gohan would beat Goku decidedly in fight..it would be very one sided IMO.
Victorious' fan made Dragon Ball Z Battle Power (Sentō-ryoku) list
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NavonWise
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Kamikaze Pyro
Nov 12 2011, 11:00 PM
Weskur
Nov 12 2011, 10:25 PM
Victorious
Nov 12 2011, 10:20 PM
Cell was a step or two ahead of Goku, and can't even touch MSSJ Gohan without using his real speed.
Cell didn't use his real speed against MSSJ, that would mean he was FP already if he used his real speed. He just kicked it up a notch. And again Gohan learned all of Cell's moves, Goku didn't, Gohan had an advantage, Goku didn't.
Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

So yes, Cell used his real full speed.
Oh ok, but either way, what does that prove? Cell never used his full speed against Goku, and like I said Gohan learned all of Cell's moves, It was easier for him to dodge Cell's attacks, etc.
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NavonWise
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Mirai Trunks
Nov 13 2011, 12:36 AM
Viz Chapter 213 : The Little Cells
Page 163

''All right, Cell Juniors!! Enough fooling around!! You can kill them now if you want!!''

The Cell Kids were fooling around the whole time; they weren't taking the fight seriously.

Cell Kids (Surpressed) : 1,750,000,000 - 2,000,000,000
Cell Kids (Full Power) : 4,000,000,000

SSJ Vegeta : 1,850,000,000 - 2,000,000,000
SSJ Trunks : 1,800,000,000


Cell just said that to get Gohan angry, you can clearly see Vegeta was holding his own and one of the Cell jrs was a bit hurt by Vegeta's punches. They should be around equal to Trunks or Vegeta, not the same as Cell him self.
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NavonWise
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Victorious
Nov 13 2011, 06:01 PM
Weskur
Nov 12 2011, 10:25 PM
Victorious
Nov 12 2011, 10:20 PM
Cell was a step or two ahead of Goku, and can't even touch MSSJ Gohan without using his real speed.
Cell didn't use his real speed against MSSJ, that would mean he was FP already if he used his real speed. He just kicked it up a notch. And again Gohan learned all of Cell's moves, Goku didn't, Gohan had an advantage, Goku didn't.
The "kick it up a notch" is a dub line. In the manga he says he's going to go all out in speed, which obviously means he was holding back his speed against Goku...even in that suppression he was fighting at. Goku fights Cell and Cell is "a step or two ahead" of Goku and Goku quits since obviously he realizes he's inferior...Cell then fights Gohan and he can't even lay a finger on him until he increases his speed. But yeah obviously his true speed can only be used when he's at full power which he didnt show against MSSJ Gohan. But anyway...

Powered up suppression Cell (real speed) = MSSJ Gohan > powered up suppression Cell (holding back speed) > MSSJ Goku.

Something like this works IMO

Perfect Cell
~ powered up suppression : 125
----- ki/power : 125
----speed against 100% MSSJ Goku and initial MSSJ Gohan : 110
----full speed against MSSJ Gohan : 125

Goku
~ MSSJ 100% : 100
-----ki/power : 100
-----speed : 100

MSSJ Gohan
~ MSSJ : 125
-----ki/power: 125
-----speed : 125

But anyway, If Cell is a step or two ahead of Goku and can't even touch MSSJ Gohan at the level he fought Goku at there's a pretty big gap between MSSJ Goku and MSSJ Gohan. Gohan would beat Goku decidedly in fight..it would be very one sided IMO.
Yea as I said Goku was just fighting Cell for the first time, Gohan saw all of Cell's moves, he had an advantage. It's obvious MSSJ Gohan was stronger than MSSJ Goku but I just don't believe the gap was that high as people put it out to be.
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Victorious
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If Perfect Cell (suppressed) without using his real speed is a step or two ahead of MSSJ Goku, and never say die Son Goku quits against him, yet Cell at that level can't even lay a finger on MSSJ Gohan.....well to me it seems like MSSJ Gohan has a pretty darn big gap on MSSJ Goku.

I too used to but MSSJ Goku basically = to MSSJ Goku, but then i looked a more details of the fight which too me clearly shows a hefty gap between Gohan and Goku.
Edited by Victorious, Nov 14 2011, 05:38 AM.
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