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How big do you think the Super Saiyan 2 multiplier is?; Super Saiyan 2 multiplier
Topic Started: Nov 10 2011, 10:50 PM (3,628 Views)
Selsiuss
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Mastered Super Saiyan is not a separate form from normal Super Saiyan. It is the same thing but without the drawback of energy consumption.

Before you bring up the point of "But Goku and Gohan were leagues ahead of Vegeta and Trunks and they could go Ultra Super Saiyan! Mastered Super Saiyam must be a bigger increase!" I will say that you are wrong. It is not that Mastered Super Saiyan has a bigger multiplier, it is simply that Goku and Gohan became stronger overall. Like this:

Post Rosat -

Base Vegeta: 5
Ssj Vegeta: 250
Ssj Grade 2 Vegeta: 350
Ssj Grade 3 Vegeta: 400

Base Goku: 15
Mastered Ssj Goku: 750

That's with a 50x multiplier. Goku said that forcing more ki into the Super Saiyan form would only consume ki faster and make the body's muscles grow huge and slow. Goku and Gohan used normal super saiyan because it was more efficient and their training methods allowed them to get much stronger than Vegeta and Trunks overall.
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+ Pyrus
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Selsiuss
Nov 12 2011, 05:46 PM
Mastered Super Saiyan is not a separate form from normal Super Saiyan. It is the same thing but without the drawback of energy consumption.

Before you bring up the point of "But Goku and Gohan were leagues ahead of Vegeta and Trunks and they could go Ultra Super Saiyan! Mastered Super Saiyam must be a bigger increase!" I will say that you are wrong. It is not that Mastered Super Saiyan has a bigger multiplier, it is simply that Goku and Gohan became stronger overall. Like this:

Post Rosat -

Base Vegeta: 5
Ssj Vegeta: 250
Ssj Grade 2 Vegeta: 350
Ssj Grade 3 Vegeta: 400

Base Goku: 15
Mastered Ssj Goku: 750

That's with a 50x multiplier. Goku said that forcing more ki into the Super Saiyan form would only consume ki faster and make the body's muscles grow huge and slow. Goku and Gohan used normal super saiyan because it was more efficient and their training methods allowed them to get much stronger than Vegeta and Trunks overall.
I agree. I don't see why people still don't understand this. They can't accept Goku and Gohan being that much stronger than Vegeta and Trunks?
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lunar2
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beyond that, neither vegeta nor trunks were mssj at the cell games, but they were over 1/2 as powerful as goku as ssj.

mssj goku 10

ssj vegeta/trunks ~ 6.7

if mssj was a bigger multiplier, that would mean that vegeta and trunks were stronger than gohan and goku in base. but 7 years later, the gap between goku and vegeta is the same, despite the fact that vegeta's been doing special training, and they have access to the same forms (as far as vegeta knew when he made the statement). in the same form, vegeta was weaker than goku by a large amount, and the gap between them hadn't changed.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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Victorious
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Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan 2nd grade
Super Saiyan 3rd grade
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3.


"Mastered Super Saiyan" is a regular Super Saiyan, it's not "beyond Super Saiyan" like all the other forms are.

Something like this works form my power levels.

Vegeta (post ROSAT)
~ base : 2.56
~ SSJ : 128
~ SSJ 2nd grade / USSJ : 160

Vegeta (post 2nd ROSAT)
~ base : 12
~ SSJ : 600

Goku (post ROSAT)
~ base : 20
~ SSJ : 1,000

Edited by Victorious, Nov 12 2011, 08:08 PM.
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NavonWise
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I think SSJ2 should be where it is, two times the power of a SSJ. I don't think FP Cell was that much stronger than Goku. I don't think Gohan was that much stronger than Goku at MSSJ either, I consider them around the same. Gohan did better because he learned how Cell fought, Goku fought Cell first so Gohan can see hoe Cell fought, Gohan learned Cell's moves so he knew what Cell was going to do. If SSJ was 1,000,000 for example, SSJ2 was 2,000,000, FP Cell could have been 1,005,000. Ahead of Goku, still way lower than Gohan. Cell did say now that he was hurt, if Goku would have taken a senzu bean he might have a chance.
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SSJ Ranulf
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Weskur
Nov 12 2011, 09:24 PM
I think SSJ2 should be where it is, two times the power of a SSJ. I don't think FP Cell was that much stronger than Goku. I don't think Gohan was that much stronger than Goku at MSSJ either, I consider them around the same. Gohan did better because he learned how Cell fought, Goku fought Cell first so Gohan can see hoe Cell fought, Gohan learned Cell's moves so he knew what Cell was going to do. If SSJ was 1,000,000 for example, SSJ2 was 2,000,000, FP Cell could have been 1,005,000. Ahead of Goku, still way lower than Gohan. Cell did say now that he was hurt, if Goku would have taken a senzu bean he might have a chance.
I'm curious what you think about the fact that Goku expected Gohan to get much stronger when enraged, then was awed at Gohan's power, then was totally floored by Cell's full power, then Cell powered up impressively in his buff form, and then Cell got pwnd in about 2 hits. At the very least, SSJ2 Gohan (vs. Cell Jr.s) should be well ahead of Goku and FP Cell somewhat above that, in my opinion.
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NavonWise
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1,000,000 to 2,000,000....yeah anyone would be amazed lol. I just don't think FP Cell was that ahead of Goku I mean, Gohan countered Cell's FP Kamehameha with a crap Kamehameha, now that's what I call way ahead. If Gohan was stronger than Goku at MSSJ, I don't think the gap was that much higher either.
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SSJ Ranulf
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I agree with you that SSJ2 Gohan vlew FP Cell out of the water. But Gohan displayed two different powers as an SSJ2. When he defeated the Cell Jr.s, Goku was shocked at his power. Then Cell went full power, and shocked Goku to the point it seemed Goku thought Gohan would lose. Sure, Cell never could have won, Goku thought Cell (Full Power) > SSJ2 Gohan (Vs. Cell Jr.s).

To me, something like this is fairly minimal:

MSSJ Goku: 95
MSSJ Gohan: 100
SSJ2 Gohan (vs. Cell Jr.s): 150 (remember, Goku was shocked at Gohan's power, and he was expected Gohan to greatly power up)
Full Power Cell: 175 (everyone thought he would beat Gohan)
SSJ2 Gohan (Full Power): 250

And that's not counting for Cell's power weighted/buff form.
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NavonWise
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Not really, reading it right now, Goku says, I knew it, so he did expected Gohan to be this strong when Gohan destroyed the Cell jrs. And Goku doesn't seem shocked at Cell's FP, he never says anything like, "I'm not sure if Gohan has a chance". All he says is, "At last Cell shows his true powers, it feels like it's going to destroy the planet". So Goku wasn't shocked, surprised yes, but not shocked.
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SSJ Ranulf
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Oh, that's quite insightful then. Thanks for the quote.

I still stand by x4-5, but x2 does seem more reasonable to me now than it did before. I'm still saying Full Power Perfect Cell > SSJ2 Gohan (vs. Cell Jr.s), but now I suppose it can be pretty close.

Of course, I think MSSJ Gohan >> MSSJ Goku, so I'm naturally going to have Full Power Cell well above where you might place him, if you consider MSSJ Gohan = MSSJ Goku.
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Victorious
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MSSJ Gohan is quite a bit ahead of MSSJ Goku.

Cell was a step or two ahead of Goku, and can't even touch MSSJ Gohan without using his real speed.
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NavonWise
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I think MSSJ Gohan was a bit stronger than MSSJ Goku, not by a huge gap like some people put him out to be. I think my example work though. If Goku was 1,000,000 and a FP Cell was 1,010,000, I think that's enough to tank Goku's attacks also. That should be enough to get Goku shocked, I mean that's basically 10,000 PLs higher lol
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NavonWise
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Victorious
Nov 12 2011, 10:20 PM
Cell was a step or two ahead of Goku, and can't even touch MSSJ Gohan without using his real speed.
Cell didn't use his real speed against MSSJ, that would mean he was FP already if he used his real speed. He just kicked it up a notch. And again Gohan learned all of Cell's moves, Goku didn't, Gohan had an advantage, Goku didn't.
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SSJ Ranulf
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Weskur
Nov 12 2011, 10:22 PM
I think MSSJ Gohan was a bit stronger than MSSJ Goku, not by a huge gap like some people put him out to be. I think my example work though. If Goku was 1,000,000 and a FP Cell was 1,010,000, I think that's enough to tank Goku's attacks also. That should be enough to get Goku shocked, I mean that's basically 10,000 PLs higher lol
That's only a 1% difference in power. SSJ2 Gohan (vs. Cell Jrs.) should be >> MSSJ Goku (minimally), and FP Cell should be close to SSJ2 Gohan (vs. Cell Jrs.) at the very least, if not above him.

Raditz considered Goku (416) and Piccolo (408) to be equal in power (stated, if I'm correct), and that's a 2% difference in power. By your example numbers, SSJ2 Gohan (initial) should be > 2% above MSSJ Goku, at the very least. And Cell thought he could win and Goku was somewhat impressed with FP Cell, so he should be close to initial SSJ2 Gohan.

Again, I think MSSJ Gohan is 130 compared to MSSJ Goku's 100, but I'm willing to give your smaller gaps a fair chance.
Edited by SSJ Ranulf, Nov 12 2011, 10:45 PM.
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NavonWise
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Vegeta was around equal to the Cell jrs, he actually held his own, I don't think they were that strong.
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