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How big do you think the Super Saiyan 2 multiplier is?; Super Saiyan 2 multiplier
Topic Started: Nov 10 2011, 10:50 PM (3,629 Views)
+ Clearin
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Kamikaze Pyro
Nov 11 2011, 03:41 AM
But Gohan was also confident in beating Cell when he came back. :errm:

SSjin Goku: 100
SSjin Gohan: 130
- SSjin 2: 260
Cell: 115
- FP: 170
- weakened by SSjin 2 Gohan: 130
- buff: 200
- SPC: 230

Por que?
Maybe Gohan hadn't felt Cell's full power yet? It doesn't really matter though, I could put Super Perfect Cell above or below Gohan without any problems.
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lunar2
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gohan HADN'T felt cell's full power yet. he stated it after his arm was broken, that cell had powered up more than he'd expected.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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Victorious
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Regarding Cell's power up to go full power, I'd say at minimum it should be a 70-100 power up...comparable to what Freeza did on Namek to go 100% to fight Super Saiyan Goku. Although personally I have it as a 50-100 power up. He sees the Cell juniors get insta killed by Gohan and still thinks his full power will be enough to easily handle Gohan..that suggests to me Cell himself could probably insta kill the Cell Juniors as well.

Also, remember I believe there are Buu saga implications that the SSJ2 multiplier off of SSJ is more than 2x. About Buu's ball taking no damage from SSJ Gohan's Kamehameha yet SSJ Gohan believing his SSJ2 power would be able to easily handle Buu (this is of course the initial Fat Buu power...The power than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta laughed off...but.when Buu hits Dabura they all realize Buu has a ton of power in reserve far stronger than they initially realized.)
Victorious' fan made Dragon Ball Z Battle Power (Sentō-ryoku) list
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

MSSJ Goku : 90

Perfect Cell (Surpressed) :100
Perfect Cell (Full Power) : 135
Perfect Cell (Power Weighted) : 202.5

MSSJ Gohan : 120
SSJ2 Gohan : 240

Super Perfect Cell : 205 - 235

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Victorious
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Mirai Trunks
Nov 11 2011, 05:03 PM
MSSJ Goku : 90

Perfect Cell (Surpressed) :100
Perfect Cell (Full Power) : 135
Perfect Cell (Power Weighted) : 202.5

MSSJ Gohan : 120
SSJ2 Gohan : 240

Super Perfect Cell : 205 - 235

full power Perfect Cell should be way more than 11% stronger than MSSJ Gohan IMO.
Edited by Victorious, Nov 11 2011, 05:16 PM.
Victorious' fan made Dragon Ball Z Battle Power (Sentō-ryoku) list
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SSJ Ranulf
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bizness86
Nov 11 2011, 09:34 AM
fighterpower
SSJ Goku100
Perfect Cell110

Goku and Cell are roughly equal in power. Cell is able to maintain his high power for a longer period of time because he is not fighting at full power, thus is not overexerting himself. Goku has to overreach to keep up with Cell, and ultimately burns out before dealing more than significant damage.

fighterpower
SSJ Gohan120
SSJ Goku100
Perfect Cell110

Gohan is implied, and near-stated to have a power advantage over Goku. People can assume that Gohan would stomp, but that is not said.

IMO, 15% = advantage; 32.25% = stomp. Gohan at 20% over Goku is considerably generous. Gohan powers up versus Cell to show that he is more than, or more or less, Cell's equal in power. Still, the Z-Warriors doubt Gohan's expreience and fortitude.

fighterpower
SSJ2 Gohan180
Perfect Cell110

Per this topic, Gohan in the table is at the bare minimum of his power as it is suppressed, and that is simply a 1.5 factor to SSJ. Gohan isn't even at full power, but still stomps Cell at this point.

fighterpower
SSJ2 Gohan (Full Power)240
Perfect Cell (Full Power)165
SSJ2 Gohan180
Perfect Cell110

Cell felt as if he should have closed the gap by increasing his power, and he would have been correct. The difference in power would have been negligible, if Gohan were at full power.

After Cell's rise (1.5 * Cell at Goku), Gohan taunts and is still able to outclass Cell. Cell resorts to a Super Kamehameha capable of killing the planet, and is countered easily enough.

Full Power Gohan in the table stomps FPPC with a 45.5% difference in power!

fighterpower
Perfect Cell (Power Weighted)323.4
SSJ2 Gohan240

I used (Power Weighted ~ A2SSJ), A1SSJ = 1.4 * SSJ, A2SSJ = 1.4 * A1SSJ = 1.96 * SSJ.
The Z-Warriors (Krillin) believed that Cell posed an actual threat, as if Gohan would not have won. Krillin's reaction is identical to his reaction to Future Trunks at Perfect Cell; Future Trunks notices this as well.

With a 34.75% difference, Cell has stomping power, but other stats are less than stomping...

fighterpower
Super Perfect Cell215
SSJ2 Gohan240

Again the difference in power become mere; 11%.

Cell becomes megalo/ego-maniacal; he enjoys the thought of being virtually invincible; he thinks he's immortal and potentially infinitely powerful; he comes back from anything, stronger than he ever was, and will continue to do so until he is the most powerful.

Cell is irritated by Gohan's evident lack of interest, and most liekly sees this as either arrogance, or ignorance to his perfection. For this, I don't believe Super Perfect Cell was any stronger than Gohan, and I actually place him slightly below.

fighterpower
Super Perfect Cell215
SSJ2 Gohan (injured)]150, 185]

Gohan takes considerable damage. His power may even be below SSJ2's suppression point (reference).

Also considering damage, the difference in power has to be at least 15% for Cell to lose interest. Then we go into the Kamehameha from Hell that determines the victor. Gohan finds enough power to produced the ki to overtake the struggle.

:) for lols and trolfs
First, let me say I find your logic sound and a very reasonable interpretation of the events of the Cell Games, and I enjoy the depth you go into in describing it. I do have a few issues/questions about it, however:

1) When Gohan first powered up, you have a 1.5x multiplier. Is this considering that his power up exceeded what Goku expected, as Goku was shocked at the power Gohan used to destroy the Cell Jr.s (if I remember correctly). Wouldn't it make sense to have Goku expect Gohan to power up by 1.33x (160) and then have Gohan exceed that considerable? 160 is 89% of 180, and that seems a little to close, in my opinion, for Goku to be shocked. Something like 200 seems more reasonable, to me.

2) Cell thought he could win, did he not? At only 91.5% of Gohan's power, he'd have quite an uphill battle, in my opinion. If Gohan is still only at 180, then Cell should be at least even with him, if not slightly above. Also I suck at math and I'm only coming up with Gohan (240) and Cell (165) having a 31.25% difference, which is still probable enough for Gohan to roll him, although it's about as small as I would ever put it.

3) Didn't Gohan crush Cell's Power Weighted form in two strikes? Sure, Cell was to slow to touch him, but his strength should still be considerable under Gohan's, as his durability was clearly not enough to withstand Gohan's attacks. Using the numbers you presented, I would feel that something like 200 would work: enough that, all things equal, Cell could perhaps damage Gohan, but still low enough that Gohan's attack would deal great damage.

4) As for Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Gohan, I go by feats for that segment. Both of them felt they could win for sure, then Cell powered up. Cell shot a blast of energy, and it badly injured Gohan. There is no statement or other clear indication that Gohan was somehow not at his full power, and attacks from weaker foes do not seem to deal damage to stronger opponents (Piccolo vs 50% Frieza, Krillin vs Nappa, Krillin vs Recoome, ect.). This is why I think that Gohan should be 80 - 90% of Cell.
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Fourth Doctor Who
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Mark of the Crimson Dragon

I'm willing to change 3x for Super Saiya-jin 2 to 2.5x.

(Super Saiya-jin)
10x

(Super Saiya-jin 2)
10 (SSJ) x 4 (MSSJ) x 2.5 (SSJ2) = 100x

(Super Saiya-jin 3)
10 (SSJ) x 10(SSJ2) x 2 (SSJ3) = 200x

(Super Saiya-jin 4)
5x (SSJ) x 50 (Super Oozaru) x 2 (SSJ4) = 500x
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Kruegs Outlandish
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SSJ Ranulf
Nov 11 2011, 05:11 PM
First, let me say I find your logic sound and a very reasonable interpretation of the events of the Cell Games, and I enjoy the depth you go into in describing it. I do have a few issues/questions about it, however:

1) When Gohan first powered up, you have a 1.5x multiplier. Is this considering that his power up exceeded what Goku expected, as Goku was shocked at the power Gohan used to destroy the Cell Jr.s (if I remember correctly). Wouldn't it make sense to have Goku expect Gohan to power up by 1.33x (160) and then have Gohan exceed that considerable? 160 is 89% of 180, and that seems a little to close, in my opinion, for Goku to be shocked. Something like 200 seems more reasonable, to me.

2) Cell thought he could win, did he not? At only 91.5% of Gohan's power, he'd have quite an uphill battle, in my opinion. If Gohan is still only at 180, then Cell should be at least even with him, if not slightly above. Also I suck at math and I'm only coming up with Gohan (240) and Cell (165) having a 31.25% difference, which is still probable enough for Gohan to roll him, although it's about as small as I would ever put it.

3) Didn't Gohan crush Cell's Power Weighted form in two strikes? Sure, Cell was to slow to touch him, but his strength should still be considerable under Gohan's, as his durability was clearly not enough to withstand Gohan's attacks. Using the numbers you presented, I would feel that something like 200 would work: enough that, all things equal, Cell could perhaps damage Gohan, but still low enough that Gohan's attack would deal great damage.

4) As for Super Perfect Cell vs SSJ2 Gohan, I go by feats for that segment. Both of them felt they could win for sure, then Cell powered up. Cell shot a blast of energy, and it badly injured Gohan. There is no statement or other clear indication that Gohan was somehow not at his full power, and attacks from weaker foes do not seem to deal damage to stronger opponents (Piccolo vs 50% Frieza, Krillin vs Nappa, Krillin vs Recoome, ect.). This is why I think that Gohan should be 80 - 90% of Cell.
First @ maths:
I've picked up the habit of using "the difference in power of the lower power," after seeing other members do it.

i.e. Cell is 165 and Gohan is 180.

180/165 = 1.09091. So 109.1% of Cell's power is Gohan's power. So, the difference in Cell's power and Gohan's is 9.1%. Cell would have to overreach 9% to be even with Goku, but I don't think he really needs to. He could do enough damage without overreaching.

165/180 = 0.9167. So Cell is 91.7% of Gohan's power. So Gohan could spare 8% when matching Cell. That's be mere if Cell went all crazy and such.

  1. I posted link as to why that's there. SSJ2 is two times SSJ. Gohan's actually able to suppress some of that power. The lowest he can go by just suppressing is around 75 base powers. that's around 150% of SSJ. Not sure what to say concerning Goku's reaction. He could have been just surprised in general. I mean Piccolo talked him out of his delusion, and then afterwards, Cell Juniors stomped on his head. Gohan may have just surprised everyone with his explosion in power. [shrugs]

  2. 91.5% isn't low at all, imo. Gohan would have had an advantage if Cell was say, 87% or lower. Add that Cell thought that Gohan was a full strength, and that Cell has regeneration, the inherent experience, and the notion that Gohan is only kid, and Cell would think that he'd have the advantage. Or he could have just been ticked that he was embarrassed by a kid.

    (points to the maths above)

    240/165 = 1.455 -> 145.5% of Cell's power is Gohan's. 45.5% difference; Cell would have to up his power 45% to equal Gohan.

    165/240 = 0.6875 -> Cell is 68.75% of Gohan's power. Gohan can match Cell with 31.25% of his power to spare, if need be. Kinda like how I have Cell at Goku. If Gohan fought Cell evenly, then Cell would have been whittled down while Gohan would have power to spare.

  3. My explanation would be that Cell was too slow to put up an adequate guard. Future Trunks was so much stronger than Cell, until Cell decided to out-speed him. Krillin derp was indicator.

  4. Gohan was off-guard. You kinda have to put ki into guard in order to buffer attacks. Nappa at Z-Warriors, Vegeta had to warn Nappa of oncoming attacks and Nappa would have just enough notice to block. Nappa almost didn't tank Tenshinhan's Kikoho... However, Piccolo gave him a good shot to his back and did good enough damage.
yeah...
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+ Pelador
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Crazy Awesome Legend

I have mine at 2.5.


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+ supersaqer
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Transcendent

Oozaru : x10.
SSJ : x50 Base.
ASSJ : x2 SSJ.
MSSJ : x2.5 SSJ.
USSJ : x3 SSJ.
SSJ2 : x6 to x10 SSJ.
SSJ3 : x10 SSJ2.
Golden Oozaru : x50 Oozaru.
SSJ4 : x10 Golden Oozaru or x10 SSJ3.
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Fourth Doctor Who
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Pelador
Nov 11 2011, 08:20 PM
I have mine at 2.5.
Me too just recently.

I have yet to figure out Ascended Super Saiya-jin form multipliers to blend in with (10x=SSJ/100x=SSJ2/200x=SSJ3)

(1/2 Mastered Super Saiya-jin)
25x

(Full-Powered Super Saiya-jin or Mastered Super Saiya-jin)
50x

(Ascended Super Saiya-jin)
15x

(Ultra Ascended Super Saiya-jin)
18x

(10x=SSJ/15x=ASSJ/18x=USSJ/25x=Half-MSSJ/50x=Full-MSSJ/100x=SSJ2/200x=SSJ3/500x=SSJ4/1,000x=SSJ5 *Just for fun*)

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lunar2
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mssj is the same as ssj. mssj does not grant extra power over ssj. it does grant extra stamina, because it doesn't have the physical or emotional strain of ssj, which could be used to get a bit more high powered training in, but the actual multiplier from base is the same whether you've mastered ssj or not.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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SSJ Ranulf
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@ bizness86:

Honestly, I don't really care about the difference in math. Weather Cell is 8.3% weaker or 9.1% weaker, it doesn't really matter. It's a difficult battle either way. As I remember it, during his burst of Kaio-Ken/x2, Goku was around 16,000, correct? And Vegeta was roughly 18,000? That puts Goku at 89% or 87.5% of his power, yet Vegeta beat him head on, before the Kaio-Ken wore off. I'm not saying Cell couldn't have won if he was 90%, or even 85% of Gohan's power, but I really don't he'd be so confident. But far more important than that was everyone elses shock. IMO, Cell had to be stronger than Gohan's displayed power, by an impressive margarine, for the others to be in such awe of his power. It makes no sense to me for them to be stunned by a power that's well under one they just saw in action.

I've read your link, but I don't really buy the theory myself. I don't recall any statements about limitations to suppress their power. If Gohan's SSJ2 is 5x SSJ, and 250x base (or whatever floats your boat), then I'd see no problem with him suppressing himself to 60x base or something.

Personally I don't think it's logical to write Goku's surprise off. It's not like proof of any kind, but I take it to mean SSJ2 Gohan (initial) > MSSJ Gohan (Goku's expectations), and I think it means SSJ2 Gohan (Initial) should be at least 1.75x MSSJ Gohan or so, in my opinion.

I don't really buy the couldn't put up a guard thing, although I certainly see why your thinking about it. I feel that surprise attacks are more effective (Piccolo vs Frieza, Z vs. Nappa, ect.), but Cell was fighting Gohan 1 vs 1 and would have been ready for him. As for why Cell hurt Trunks, I'd have Cell 80-85% of Trunks, and Buff Cell 70-75% of Gohan. Cell was somewhat close to Trunks, so he could do damage to him, but Gohan > Cell, so he's able to smash the crap out of Cell.

I also don't think Gohan was off guard against Cell. If he was stronger, he would have deflected the blast, gotten their first, godstomped Cell before he could fire it, ect. I think he only got their in time, and was of course getting ready to block on the way, and he was simply over powered. Overall, I feel their is evidence Cell was stronger, and none that he was weaker.
Edited by SSJ Ranulf, Nov 11 2011, 11:52 PM.
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+ Havoc_Wreaker
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Popcorn

im a go ahead and say 50,2,4

or 50,2/3,4/5 something along those lines works for me
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Kruegs Outlandish
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SSJ Ranulf
Nov 11 2011, 11:52 PM
@ bizness86:

Honestly, I don't really care about the difference in math. Weather Cell is 8.3% weaker or 9.1% weaker, it doesn't really matter. It's a difficult battle either way. As I remember it, during his burst of Kaio-Ken/x2, Goku was around 16,000, correct? And Vegeta was roughly 18,000? That puts Goku at 89% or 87.5% of his power, yet Vegeta beat him head on, before the Kaio-Ken wore off. I'm not saying Cell couldn't have won if he was 90%, or even 85% of Gohan's power, but I really don't he'd be so confident. But far more important than that was everyone elses shock. IMO, Cell had to be stronger than Gohan's displayed power, by an impressive margarine, for the others to be in such awe of his power. It makes no sense to me for them to be stunned by a power that's well under one they just saw in action.

I've read your link, but I don't really buy the theory myself. I don't recall any statements about limitations to suppress their power. If Gohan's SSJ2 is 5x SSJ, and 250x base (or whatever floats your boat), then I'd see no problem with him suppressing himself to 60x base or something.

Personally I don't think it's logical to write Goku's surprise off. It's not like proof of any kind, but I take it to mean SSJ2 Gohan (initial) > MSSJ Gohan (Goku's expectations), and I think it means SSJ2 Gohan (Initial) should be at least 1.75x MSSJ Gohan or so, in my opinion.

I don't really buy the couldn't put up a guard thing, although I certainly see why your thinking about it. I feel that surprise attacks are more effective (Piccolo vs Frieza, Z vs. Nappa, ect.), but Cell was fighting Gohan 1 vs 1 and would have been ready for him. As for why Cell hurt Trunks, I'd have Cell 80-85% of Trunks, and Buff Cell 70-75% of Gohan. Cell was somewhat close to Trunks, so he could do damage to him, but Gohan > Cell, so he's able to smash the crap out of Cell.

I also don't think Gohan was off guard against Cell. If he was stronger, he would have deflected the blast, gotten their first, godstomped Cell before he could fire it, ect. I think he only got their in time, and was of course getting ready to block on the way, and he was simply over powered. Overall, I feel their is evidence Cell was stronger, and none that he was weaker.
[shrugs] not much else to say then.
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