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How big do you think the Super Saiyan 2 multiplier is?; Super Saiyan 2 multiplier
Topic Started: Nov 10 2011, 10:50 PM (3,626 Views)
Victorious
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The SEG has SSJ2 2x SSJ and 100x base. Do you all agree with this?

according to the SEG

SSJ = 50x base
SSJ2 = 100x base (or 2x SSJ)


Personally I think it's a lot bigger than 2x...I think Perfect Cell did a massive power up to go to full power, and then he gets even more powerful going into his buff form...and Gohan still crippled him with just a kick. So I personally disagree with the SEG's 2x SSJ multiplier for SSJ2. I SSJ2 more like 4-5x off of SSJ.

There's also an implication in the Buu saga that SSJ2 is more than 2x SSJ IMO. SSJ Gohan does a Kamehameha to Buu's ball and it does no damage. Yet Gohan thinks if he got angry and went SSJ2 he would be able to take out initial Fat Buu. And remember Kamehahaha multiplied Goku's battle power against Raditz 2.22x...so SSJ2 should be a lot more than 2.22x IMO.

Edited by Victorious, Nov 10 2011, 10:55 PM.
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I don't mind it, but I prefer at least 2.5x.
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+ Clearin
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If I had to have a set multiplier it'd be x2, I have no problems with that. But I honestly don't think Toriyama had a set multiplier and to him it was just SSj, but stronger.
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Victorious
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I have Perfect Cell fighting at 50% against MSSJ Goku and MSSJ kid Gohan, then doing a 2x power up to go full power...and we all know he's still fodder for SSJ2 kid Gohan. I mean that power up was implied to be huge, (the anime portrays it real well IMO) and Gohan still takes him out with two punches?

SSJ to SSJ2..... It's gotta a lot more than 2x IMO. I think the Buu saga implications with the Buu ball debunk it.


Edited by Victorious, Nov 10 2011, 11:04 PM.
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I think it could be like:
SSj Goku: 100
Cell (Suppressed): 100
SSj Gohan: 115
SSj2 Gohan: 230-250 (Depending on rage boost or not)
Cell (FP): 140ish
Super Perfect Cell: 240-260 (Depending on Gohan having a rage boost or not)
I used to always have Super Perfect Cell below SSj2 Gohan but I honestly don't see why he should be, he was confident in beating Gohan...so yeah.

As for Buu's ball, I think Gohan was SSj2 then so meh (I'm pretty sure he makes a comment about being at full power then?)
Edited by Clearin, Nov 10 2011, 11:02 PM.
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Victorious
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Something like this works IMO.

Perfect Cell
~ suppressed against MSSJ Goku and MSSJ Gohan : 125
~ full power : 250
~ buff/pseudo USSJ 2 : 375
~ zenkai/super perfect : 500
Goku
~ MSSJ : 100
kid Gohan
~MSSJ : 130
~SSJ2 : 520


btw, your numbers work, but Cell suppressed should be a bit higher than MSSJ Goku...Goku quit on him and Vegeta said Cell was one or two steps ahead...and Cell was still holding back his speed too. It's a pretty big gap IMO.
Edited by Victorious, Nov 10 2011, 11:06 PM.
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lunar2
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remember that a 30% increase is huge. a 2x increase is beyond comprehension (at least to piccolo). if cell was 30% stronger than mssj gohan at full power, then gohan hit him twice for serious damage (cell questions how he could be so damaged from just 2 hits). then cell tries to blast the earth, and gohan reflets it, further damaging cell, and forcing him to regenerate and expend even more ki. then cell tries to buff up, but at this point he's so low on ki he might not have even got up to his original full power, even after going to the advanced form like he did. once you take into account the massive damage he took, there is no reason to believe that ssj2 needs to be more than 2x.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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Teen GohanZ
Nov 10 2011, 11:01 PM
I think it could be like:
SSj Goku: 100
Cell (Suppressed): 100
SSj Gohan: 115
SSj2 Gohan: 230-250 (Depending on rage boost or not)
Cell (FP): 140ish
Super Perfect Cell: 240-260 (Depending on Gohan having a rage boost or not)
I used to always have Super Perfect Cell below SSj2 Gohan but I honestly don't see why he should be, he was confident in beating Gohan...so yeah.

As for Buu's ball, I think Gohan was SSj2 then so meh (I'm pretty sure he makes a comment about being at full power then?)
But Gohan was also confident in beating Cell when he came back. :errm:

SSjin Goku: 100
SSjin Gohan: 130
- SSjin 2: 260
Cell: 115
- FP: 170
- weakened by SSjin 2 Gohan: 130
- buff: 200
- SPC: 230

Por que?
Edited by Pyrus, Nov 11 2011, 03:42 AM.
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SSJ Ranulf
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Personal I use x5, and I like something to the tune of this:

MSSJ Goku: 100
MSSJ Gohan: 130
-SSJ2: 650
Cell: 120
-Full Power: 425
-Buff: 500
-Super Perfect: 720

Using these numbers, both Goku and Cell would have expected Gohan to get a massive gain upon unleashing his full power: something like a x3 multiplication works. As I remember it, Goku was stunned by the power Gohan put out as a Super Saiyan 2, then he was stunned by Cell's full power, then Cell got godstomped by SSJ2 Gohan. This is why I feel it needs to be pretty massive in terms of increases for each jump.
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SirParagon
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Sparking!

Each of these lists convey a similar gist. Like Teen GohanZ mentioned before, AT was probably relying on greater-than and less-than comparisons at this point in the series. So the SSJ2 multipler could be anyone's guess.
Edited by SirParagon, Nov 11 2011, 05:12 AM.
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Voluntarism?
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Kruegs Outlandish
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The whole thing with Cell...

Keep in mind, you have to define how big ENORMOUS POWER INCREASE is...

An enormous power increase doesn't even have to be 200%.

From 50% Frieza to 100% Frieza was an "enormous power increase".

Heck, 50% to about 70% Frieza was an "enormous power increase" according to Frieza, as to think he would actually matched Super Saiyan Goku with about 70% of his power...

I'm the guy who says that increasing one's power by 33% is definitely an enormous increase of power, and thus Cell probably used around 60%-70% of his full power to fight Goku.

Also, concerning Cell, why would Goku even be considered a challenge if he were even less than 50% of Cell's power? Why go through the trouble of even allowing him a Senzu to continue the fight. It'd be a waste. What kind of test would Goku have been? Cell's attire reason for the Cell Games was to allow the Saiyans to become strong enough to challenge him. Less than 50% isn't a challenge. Heck; he should have stuck to fighting RST1 Vegeta and Trunks and let them have Senzu beans.

SSJ2 is good at 2 * SSJ. and lunar2 agrees with me for the 1st time ever. Pyro will jump on the wagon soon enough :) . Since lunar beat him in the battle topic.
Edited by Kruegs Outlandish, Nov 11 2011, 06:55 AM.
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SSJ Ranulf
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bizness86
Nov 11 2011, 06:54 AM
The whole thing with Cell...

Keep in mind, you have to define how big ENORMOUS POWER INCREASE is...

An enormous power increase doesn't even have to be 200%.

From 50% Frieza to 100% Frieza was an "enormous power increase".

Heck, 50% to about 70% Frieza was an "enormous power increase" according to Frieza, as to think he would actually matched Super Saiyan Goku with about 70% of his power...

I'm the guy who says that increasing one's power by 33% is definitely an enormous increase of power, and thus Cell probably used around 60%-70% of his full power to fight Goku.

Also, concerning Cell, why would Goku even be considered a challenge if he were even less than 50% of Cell's power? Why go through the trouble of even allowing him a Senzu to continue the fight. It'd be a waste. What kind of test would Goku have been? Cell's attire reason for the Cell Games was to allow the Saiyans to become strong enough to challenge him. Less than 50% isn't a challenge. Heck; he should have stuck to fighting RST1 Vegeta and Trunks and let them have Senzu beans.

SSJ2 is good at 2 * SSJ. and lunar2 agrees with me for the 1st time ever. Pyro will jump on the wagon soon enough :) . Since lunar beat him in the battle topic.
I can totally understand what your talking about. You raise some good points and seem very logical. This is just how I see things, and with about the smallest increases that I can feel really work.

MSSJ Goku: 100
Cell: 115
MSSJ Gohan: 125

This will depend on how you view the fight. I saw Cell having a large advantage on Goku, and Gohan doing well against Cell, despite not fighting him. Then, both Goku and Cell likely expect Gohan to make a large increase. If it's all the same to you, I'll borrow your 30% as what they might be thinking makes a huge increase. Then, if I am correct, Goku is very impressed by Gohan's power when he defeats the Cell Jr.s (I might be wrong about this, and it would lower the rest of the numbers if I was). That should mean that Gohan is well beyond what he expected.

MSSJ Gohan (Goku/Cell's Expectations): ~165
SSJ2 Gohan (vs. Cell Jr.s): 200

Cell saw Gohan's power, and thought that he could win. Everyone, even Goku, was shocked by Cell's full power. He should have a considerable gap over what they'd seen of Gohan, although not enough to own him totally, perhaps. Something like 20%, for conversation sake. After getting rolled by Gohan, Cell used his ultra buff form, which should logically have greatly improved his power (I find 15% reasonable). And SSJ2 Gohan still took buff Cell down in about 2 shots (IIRC).

Cell (Full Power): 250
Cell (Buff): 290
SSJ2 Gohan (Full Power): 438

That lands SSJ2 at a 3.5x multiplier. While I admit that my preferred numbers from bellow where quite a bit higher, I prefer them, as these gaps are about as small as I am comfortable with.

Now, as for Goku being considered a challenge, I would not consider 70% a challenge. That is roughly where I think Semi-Perfect Cell fell compared to SSJ Grade 2 Vegeta: someone who is very easy to take down. Even if Goku was 70% of Cell, I don't think he could give him a very good fight at all. Basically, I don't think it matter is Goku was 25% of Cell, 40% of Cell, or even 70% of Cell: I don't think he'd be any kind of challenge under any of those circumstances. As for why Cell would give him a Senzu Bean, I personal think Cell thought Goku had some more power in reserve. I also don't think he figured he'd ever meet anyone close to Goku's power ever again: this was the best fight he was getting, so he was going to draw it out.
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Kruegs Outlandish
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fighterpower
SSJ Goku100
Perfect Cell110

Goku and Cell are roughly equal in power. Cell is able to maintain his high power for a longer period of time because he is not fighting at full power, thus is not overexerting himself. Goku has to overreach to keep up with Cell, and ultimately burns out before dealing more than significant damage.

fighterpower
SSJ Gohan120
SSJ Goku100
Perfect Cell110

Gohan is implied, and near-stated to have a power advantage over Goku. People can assume that Gohan would stomp, but that is not said.

IMO, 15% = advantage; 32.25% = stomp. Gohan at 20% over Goku is considerably generous. Gohan powers up versus Cell to show that he is more than, or more or less, Cell's equal in power. Still, the Z-Warriors doubt Gohan's expreience and fortitude.

fighterpower
SSJ2 Gohan180
Perfect Cell110

Per this topic, Gohan in the table is at the bare minimum of his power as it is suppressed, and that is simply a 1.5 factor to SSJ. Gohan isn't even at full power, but still stomps Cell at this point.

fighterpower
SSJ2 Gohan (Full Power)240
Perfect Cell (Full Power)165
SSJ2 Gohan180
Perfect Cell110

Cell felt as if he should have closed the gap by increasing his power, and he would have been correct. The difference in power would have been negligible, if Gohan were at full power.

After Cell's rise (1.5 * Cell at Goku), Gohan taunts and is still able to outclass Cell. Cell resorts to a Super Kamehameha capable of killing the planet, and is countered easily enough.

Full Power Gohan in the table stomps FPPC with a 45.5% difference in power!

fighterpower
Perfect Cell (Power Weighted)323.4
SSJ2 Gohan240

I used (Power Weighted ~ A2SSJ), A1SSJ = 1.4 * SSJ, A2SSJ = 1.4 * A1SSJ = 1.96 * SSJ.
The Z-Warriors (Krillin) believed that Cell posed an actual threat, as if Gohan would not have won. Krillin's reaction is identical to his reaction to Future Trunks at Perfect Cell; Future Trunks notices this as well.

With a 34.75% difference, Cell has stomping power, but other stats are less than stomping...

fighterpower
Super Perfect Cell215
SSJ2 Gohan240

Again the difference in power become mere; 11%.

Cell becomes megalo/ego-maniacal; he enjoys the thought of being virtually invincible; he thinks he's immortal and potentially infinitely powerful; he comes back from anything, stronger than he ever was, and will continue to do so until he is the most powerful.

Cell is irritated by Gohan's evident lack of interest, and most liekly sees this as either arrogance, or ignorance to his perfection. For this, I don't believe Super Perfect Cell was any stronger than Gohan, and I actually place him slightly below.

fighterpower
Super Perfect Cell215
SSJ2 Gohan (injured)]150, 185]

Gohan takes considerable damage. His power may even be below SSJ2's suppression point (reference).

Also considering damage, the difference in power has to be at least 15% for Cell to lose interest. Then we go into the Kamehameha from Hell that determines the victor. Gohan finds enough power to produced the ki to overtake the struggle.

:) for lols and trolfs
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Transcendent

I use a x8 to x10 multiplier for the SSJ2 and I find it very useful.
Gohan : 100.
SSJ Gohan : 5000.
MSSJ Gohan : 12000 - 13500.
SSJ2 Gohan : 40000 - 50000 (Depends on my multiplier, x8 or x10).
__
5000 x 8 = 40,000.
5000 x 10 = 50,000.

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Fourth Doctor Who
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Mark of the Crimson Dragon

I have Super Saiya-jin 2 normally without any rage boosts at 3x of Mastered Super Saiya-jin.

Super Saiya-jin = 10x
Mastered Super Saiya-jin = 2x
Super Saiya-jin 2 = 3x
Super Saiya-jin 2 (Son Gohan) = 5x
Total = 60x
Son Gohan's Total = 100x

I do follow SEG style of Super Saiya-jin multipliers (2x/4x) for Super Saiya-jin 2 and Super Saiya-jin but boosted Super Saiya-jin 2 multiplier by +! and decreased Super Saiya-jin 3 multiplier by -2.
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