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SSJ2 (Cell Games) Goku vs Super Perfect Cell
Topic Started: Nov 7 2011, 05:12 AM (6,053 Views)
lunar2
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Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P6.5, P7.1-6
Context: “Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”
Goku: “Piccolo, Gohan has more unbelievable power than we think. Think about it. He’s fought the same as everyone since he was a little squirt…When I was about his age, I wasn’t anything special.”
Kuririn: “B-but even if he’s become a Super Saiyan…Th-this is so quick…”
Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released. Why don’t we try asking him? How about it, Gohan? Did you think that dad and Cell’s fight just now was too incredible and you couldn’t keep up?”
Gohan: “N-no, I didn’t think so…But neither of you were fighting all-out, right…!?”
Goku: “I don’t know about Cell, but I was going all-out. So in other words, to you it felt like I was holding back?”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “Th-that brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power…Th-this is impossible…!”
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

this one is why cell seemed to be doing better against gohan than goku. cell was using all of his available speed against gohan, something he wasn't doing against goku.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P12.6-7
Context: after Cell beats up on Gohan
Goku: “Don’t panic, Piccolo. Gohan’s ki hasn’t fallen one bit, has it?”
Kuririn: “Ah…It-it’s true…!”

that so called beating gohan took? didn't even phase him. goku's ki was dropping steadily the entire fight, while gohan isn't even hurt, besides a scrape on the forehead.

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P7.1-3
Context: everyone gawking at Goku’s full power
Kuririn: “Th-this really is an incredible ki…! It figures he’d outstrip everyone.”
Gohan: “…Wh-why is everyone so surprised…I think he really is incredible, but…”

so, gohan's not impressed by goku's power.

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P8.3
Cell: “Looks like you’ve lost quite a lot of stamina…It’s alright if you eat one of those ‘senzu’ things, Son Goku…This should be able to become an even more magnificent match.”

cell wasn't worried about losing to goku if he had a sensu. he just though it would be a better fight if goku got a second win. cell was more than prepared to go another round with goku.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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Mihawk
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Quote:
 
this one is why cell seemed to be doing better against gohan than goku. cell was using all of his available speed against gohan, something he wasn't doing against goku.

Probably since he underestimated Gohan. That was pretty clear imo. The entire skirmish Gohan was outpaced. As you say Cell doesn't need to do his whole power up thing to go at full speed. Even before cell said that he outpaced Gohan.

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that so called beating gohan took? didn't even phase him. goku's ki was dropping steadily the entire fight, while gohan isn't even hurt, besides a scrape on the forehead.

I know it was pretty much nothing. But Gohan couldn't even get anything but a kick in so it only makes sense. Cell could have easily killed him in just MSSJ.

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so, gohan's not impressed by goku's power.

Good point here.. but in another panel he was impressed by Goku at half power. So that can be easily interpreted as Gohan saying that they shouldn't be surprised at how much he gained or that the amount isn't enough to beat cell.


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cell wasn't worried about losing to goku if he had a sensu. he just though it would be a better fight if goku got a second win. cell was more than prepared to go another round with goku.

He wasn't worried, but he thought that he might lose while knowing he had his full mode as backup as well. Or maybe he thought that he'd lose at normal power, and that full power would be his trump card.

Overall I think it's up in the air whether Gohan MSSJ > Goku MSSJ or vice versa. I've known all the points above and still considered Goku to be higher than him. But then again it seems like I'm the only one who thinks so :p

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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Gohan thinks Goku's speed and strength are quite pathetic. Right there, we can see that Gohan > Goku.

Just the fact that Cell had to use his full speed shows that Gohan was fast, much faster than Goku. And then Goku pretty much admitted that Gohan had him beat.
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Mihawk
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Mirai Trunks
Nov 7 2011, 09:44 PM
Gohan thinks Goku's speed and strength are quite pathetic. Right there, we can see that Gohan > Goku.

Just the fact that Cell had to use his full speed shows that Gohan was fast, much faster than Goku. And then Goku pretty much admitted that Gohan had him beat.
Not really. He was impressed by Goku at half power, and he doesn't exactly say me > Goku. He could have been saying many things such as "it's not enough to beat cell", "we trained a lot it's only natural he's here", or "Goku's strength isn't spectacular, I have had a lot more". The third can be pretty much ruled out due to how he was impressed by half of Goku's strength at Korin's.

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+ Pyrus
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Probably since he underestimated Gohan. That was pretty clear imo. The entire skirmish Gohan was outpaced. As you say Cell doesn't need to do his whole power up thing to go at full speed. Even before cell said that he outpaced Gohan.

He increased his speed specifically because Gohan was quick -- quicker than Goku. Remember he fought Gohan with the same amount of power as he fought Goku with.
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I know it was pretty much nothing. But Gohan couldn't even get anything but a kick in so it only makes sense. Cell could have easily killed him in just MSSJ.

Gohan dodges all of Cell's initial hits until Cell got him with the headbutt, and then when Cell finally started wailing on him after that, it didn't have any effect on Gohan power-wise, like it did with Goku. After that, Gohan wasn't fighting back except for his one reflex kick (reflex IMO, but whatever).

And Cell could've easily killed MSSjin Goku so I'm not seeing how it makes Gohan any weaker than Goku.
Quote:
 
Good point here.. but in another panel he was impressed by Goku at half power. So that can be easily interpreted as Gohan saying that they shouldn't be surprised at how much he gained or that the amount isn't enough to beat cell.

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P10.7
Context: after Goku displays his power to Karin
Gohan: “…I wonder…Has father really become so incredible?...”

That? That's Gohan wondering about Goku's power, not him being "OMG FUUUUUUUUUUU-" like everybody else. His later statement completely trumps this one though. He doesn't think Goku's full power was anything impressive. :o
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He wasn't worried, but he thought that he might lose while knowing he had his full mode as backup as well. Or maybe he thought that he'd lose at normal power, and that full power would be his trump card.

When did he think he'd lose?
Quote:
 
Overall I think it's up in the air whether Gohan MSSJ > Goku MSSJ or vice versa. I've known all the points above and still considered Goku to be higher than him. But then again it seems like I'm the only one who thinks so :p

You and Ussj Future Trunks are the only ones I know of that think that's the case, no offense. I simply cannot see how Goku could be weaker than Gohan. Goku told Cell that Gohan was more powerful than himself, and when Gohan powered up, Cell admitted it was true flat-out. The only thing Cell denied was Gohan's ability to beat him. That's a clear statement that Gohan is more powerful than Goku. Piccolo also says Gohan is stronger than Goku, albeit not in the most clear of expressions.
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Mihawk
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Quote:
 
He increased his speed specifically because Gohan was quick -- quicker than Goku. Remember he fought Gohan with the same amount of power as he fought Goku with.

I don't get where you're getting quicker than Goku. As you can see Cell can bend his speed at will. He probably underestimated Gohan.


Quote:
 
Gohan dodges all of Cell's initial hits until Cell got him with the headbutt, and then when Cell finally started wailing on him after that, it didn't have any effect on Gohan power-wise, like it did with Goku. After that, Gohan wasn't fighting back except for his one reflex kick (reflex IMO, but whatever).

And Cell could've easily killed MSSjin Goku so I'm not seeing how it makes Gohan any weaker than Goku.

Goku's battle was much longer than Cell's battle so it's only natural that Goku's takes a toll. I don't see why 1 kick would have an effect on your total ki. Cell didn't even think that Gohan had enough power "as-is" to even be any fun like Goku.

Quote:
 

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P10.7
Context: after Goku displays his power to Karin
Gohan: “…I wonder…Has father really become so incredible?...”

That? That's Gohan wondering about Goku's power, not him being "OMG FUUUUUUUUUUU-" like everybody else. His later statement completely trumps this one though. He doesn't think Goku's full power was anything impressive. :o

This one can just as eaisily be interpreted as Gohan thinking Goku > Gohan. This one could only mean "Goku is strong" or "Goku is stronger than me"
This one is a lot more solid than the other one which could have multiple meanings such as "Goku isn't strong enough to beat cell". The latter interpretation makes more sense with the use of the preceding quote. If he said the quote he said at the cell games at korin's tower instead then it'd mean that Gohan thinks he's stronger. But the context of fighting cell that's another story.

Quote:
 

When did he think he'd lose?

He said that he Goku would have a slight chance of winning if he ate the senzu they were begging him to take.

Quote:
 
You and Ussj Future Trunks are the only ones I know of that think that's the case, no offense. I simply cannot see how Goku could be weaker than Gohan. Goku told Cell that Gohan was more powerful than himself, and when Gohan powered up, Cell admitted it was true flat-out. The only thing Cell denied was Gohan's ability to beat him. That's a clear statement that Gohan is more powerful than Goku. Piccolo also says Gohan is stronger than Goku, albeit not in the most clear of expressions.

Well that's great since I thought I was the only one on Earth that thought it :p . Cell didn't think Gohan would even be any fun to play with like Goku was in his current state so he continually tried to force out more power. I don't know where you're getting flat out from but I'm sure it doesn't say that. Imo it was just that he was surprised that he had that much strength as a kid or brat as cell says.
Edited by Mihawk, Nov 7 2011, 10:27 PM.

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Kruegs Outlandish
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  • Gohan's stronger than Goku. He has an advantage over Goku power-wise. That's implied. That's stated. It's not stated that he completely stomps anyone in power.

  • Gohan did not think Goku was fighting at fully strength because he expected Goku to be much stronger than himself. only to find that he was was actually stronger than Gohan.

  • Perfect Cell (Suppressed) beat Goku not because he was significantly stronger than Goku, but because he was stronger in general; he did not have to use full strength while Goku did. So Goku burns out much more quickly then he does.

  • SSJ Gohan was more powerful than Suppressed Cell. Again, it's implied in statement. And again, there isn't an implication that he could completely stomp Cell.

  • Gohan didn't fight Cell fully. He was a full power, but that's it. Gohan realized that Goku expected Gohan to become enraged and completely overpower Cell. It is possible, IMO, this thought dampened his anger and will to fight, subconsciously or no.

  • SSJ2 Gohan and Super Perfect Cell are comparable. Cell was smug enough under the impression that he had become virtually invincible and immortal; still, Gohan wasn't intimidated in the least, and Cell becomes pissed over this. Either no one had a particular advantage over one another, or Gohan was still a bit stronger.

  • If Super Perfect Cell is equal to SSJ2 Gohan, and (Vegeta doesn't divert Cell) he wins the Kamehameha, then he still has an advantage SSJ2 Goku, albeit Cell is now a bit more that tired and Goku is livid. This is a little more than a hard battle for Cell. But, Cell's more powerful. It's hard to escape character bias on both sides, but if Goku catches him off guard like that, then this fight is much closer than someone would like to believe.

  • If Cell is less than Gohan, then this fight is much closer, and with Cell tired, Goku can potential put a serious hurting on Cell.

  • I've used SEG for SSJ factors. I've posted my opinion of power.

  • IMO, Cell is just short of doubling his power between Suppressed at Goku and Super Perfect Cell. The difference is at SSJ Goku, Cell was suppressed. As Super Perfect Cell, we assume he is a max power.

    SSJ Goku100
    Perfect Cell (at Goku)110
    Perfect Cell165
    SSJ2 Goku200
    Super Perfect Cell215


  • Cell used ~ two thirds power at SSJ Goku.

  • SSJ2 Goku is 93% of Cell's power.

  • Super Perfect Cell (SPC) is 107.5% of Goku's power.

  • SPC has 7.5% power over Goku.

  • I've recently used a > 115% power to show an advantage and a > 132.25% to show a stomp in 5 min or less.
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Mihawk
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All implications are opinion and subjective to a person's bias. I'm not trying to argue that Goku is better, just throwing my opinion out there.

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Emma
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Gohan was shown to be alot stonger then goku. he thought goku was a complete weakling and wasn't using his full power. he is well above his bad excuse of a dad at that time. gohan made his father look horrible. als spc is stronger than gohan. hwe thought he would be able to be gohan easily and went back to earth to try to beat him.
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Kruegs Outlandish
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SSJ Gohan at Cell is stronger than SSJ Goku at Cell.

SSJ Gohan does not make SSJ Goku look horrible. He barely did anything.

edit: Gohan was not shown to be a lot stronger than Goku.

It is said that he is stronger, and he is strong enough as to actually be noticeably so. That's it. Anyone who takes it further and shoots down anything that is within the realm of this is wrong. Someone who says that Gohan was clearly stronger than Goku, but not enough to completely stomp is more correct than someone who insists Gohan is far stronger and argues it every chance.

Super Perfect Cell didn't show anything of being significantly stronger than SSJ2 Gohan until after Gohan is hit trying to save Vegeta. This is fact.

Cell believed he was immortal after reviving from his self-destruction. In his mind, if it even looked as if Gohan were to beat him, he could have blown himself up again and came back fresh, and probably with another Zenkai. This is a good guess on what makes Cell so confident against Gohan, and why he becomes annoyed when Gohan does not become unnerved.

Goku whips *ss for a good min or two, then Cell recomposes and the battle is the best battle in DBZ history. Then Goku is forced to go back to Otherworld before defeating Cell. Cell wins :) .
Edited by Kruegs Outlandish, Nov 8 2011, 01:46 AM.
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Mihawk
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Quote:
 
Goku was not shown to be a lot stronger than Goku

Wait wut :o_O:

Quote:
 
It is said that he is stronger, and he is strong enough as to actually be noticeably so. That's it. Anyone who takes it further and shoots down anything that is within the realm of this is wrong

It's never stated. It's implied (according to you and most people). To me, it's implied that Gohan wasn't even good enough for cell to have fun with. I'm only throwing it out there. Implications are debatable. But I'm not gonna argue.

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Kruegs Outlandish
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Edited.

Piccolo said that Gohan was number one, but he'd still be beaten by Cell because Gohan wasn't a fighter. That's a statement. It was during the whole, bear-huggin-the-sh**-outta-gohan sequence.
Edited by Kruegs Outlandish, Nov 8 2011, 01:48 AM.
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Kruegs Outlandish
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pics
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Mihawk
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bizness86
Nov 8 2011, 01:47 AM
Edited.

Piccolo said that Gohan was number one, but he'd still be beaten by Cell because Gohan wasn't a fighter. That's a statement. It was during the whole, bear-huggin-the-sh**-outta-gohan sequence.
Really? The only thing I read was that Gohan doesn't like fighting like Goku. Unless we're going back to implications that I disagree with again?

edit: just saw your pics. Still I disagree. He said "even though" he might be the strongest referring to his hidden power. Not his current power. This is the way I read it "He can't access his hidden power to defeat cell since he's just a kid. It's not a simple as you do it". This was all in context of Goku talking about his Gohan's hidden strength anyway lol. This is how problems are caused; out of context.

also, forgot not gonna argue :p
These heated dbz are ending up wasting too much of my time. I'd live to site here and debate chickens and cows but I don't time these days :)
Edited by Mihawk, Nov 8 2011, 02:12 AM.

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Kruegs Outlandish
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illstand1
Nov 8 2011, 01:55 AM
bizness86
Nov 8 2011, 01:47 AM
Edited.

Piccolo said that Gohan was number one, but he'd still be beaten by Cell because Gohan wasn't a fighter. That's a statement. It was during the whole, bear-huggin-the-sh**-outta-gohan sequence.
Really? The only thing I read was that Gohan doesn't like fighting like Goku. Unless we're going back to implications that I disagree with again?

edit: just saw your pics. Still I disagree. He said "even though" he might be the strongest referring to his hidden power. Not his current power. This is the way I read it "He can't access his hidden power to defeat cell since he's just a kid. It's not a simple as you do it". This was all in context of Goku talking about his Gohan's hidden strength anyway lol. This is how problems are caused; out of context.
"He can't access his hidden power to defeat cell since he's just a kid. It's not a simple as you do it"

I think we'll disagree, but I honestly felt as if you added a lot to that statement that wasn't there. Piccolo didn't say anything about not being able to access hidden power.

I also recall Cell saying that Goku didn't completely lie when he said that Gohan was stronger and that Gohan was going to beat him. I'd think that knowing what Cell knew, we can deduce which part Cell thought was a lie; Cell knew he wasn't at full power, so the power Gohan showed probably wasn't going to beat him. So, that would certainly be the lie. Which leave the part about Gohan being stronger... and something has to be true for Goku to not have been lying completely...

I actually used to be in the mindset of Gohan not being stronger than Goku, but I'll have to suggest dropping bias and just reading what's there; it will actually pretty much give that Gohan's showing more power than what Goku did. I don't know if Goku was trolling. It doesn't tell us that. And I was never arguing against it.

In truth, I was, more or less, posting towards claims that Goku had no chance whatsoever against Cell.

edit:
illstand
 
also, forgot not gonna argue :p
These heated dbz are ending up wasting too much of my time. I'd live to site here and debate chickens and cows but I don't time these days :)
[waves bye to grammar...?]
Edited by Kruegs Outlandish, Nov 8 2011, 02:18 AM.
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