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Goku was Full Power Super Saiyan... in FRIEZA SAGA
Topic Started: Nov 3 2011, 12:44 AM (1,982 Views)
Kruegs Outlandish
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Quote:
 
Is that what you really think Kruegs Outlandish ? Is that what you really think?! The f*ck happened to you?
trolol
Yeah, I have seen more than a few posts that actually confuse Super Saiyan and Full-Power Super Saiyan. Stop it.

They are NOT different. Super Saiyan and Full-Power Super Saiyan, as well as Ascended Stage 1 and 2 Super Saiyan, are the same Super Saiyan Transformation. Yes.

But, wait. The topic title wasn't really just bait. Goku should, in fact, be considered, Full Power at Namek. Get this:

The only reason the term Full Power Super Saiyan exists is because, come Cell Games, Goku being Super Saiyan while not using full strength was relevant to the story.


Before RoSaT, Goku had to use full power when going Super Saiyan. Vegeta and Future Trunks, against Cell, forced their muscles so to exceed max power, but they were still at least max power as Super Saiyans; Neither Goku, Vegeta, nor Trunks could not have substantially suppressed Super Saiyan power before RoSaT.

That being said, Goku was at max power when he fought and dethroned Frieza; he was a "Full Power Super Saiyan."

And at this particular time, there really isn't a Super Saiyan that's not at Full Power.

So yeah. Full Power Super Saiyan Goku is Super Saiyan Goku using his full power.


BUT IT'S STILL SUPER SAIYAN! As a matter of fact. Goku and Gohan, out of RoSaT, are the first Super Saiyan that aren't at full power.
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Kblo247
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The term full power super saiyan refers to the fact that the saiyans aren't strained holding the transformation or wasting energy to make the transfomation. Goku and Gohan were essentially as comfortable as ssjs as they were int heir base. Vegeta and Trunks strained to transform from base to SSJ, wasting energy. Then they wasted energy ascending, and Trunks put out even more. They took a toll on their own body the point to which could worsen a heart condition for example, and wasted energy before Goku and Gohan mastered the form.

It was essentially like how the kaioken placed a stress on the body of Goku early in but he was able to hold x10 bursts without breaking a sweat.
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+ Ryebrid
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I understand what your getting at here.

The term "Full Power Super Saiyan" as an alternative for "Mastered Super Saiyan" really is misleading and incorrect.

I never understood why people named it so because 'Mastered' and 'Full Powered' is completely different.

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Kblo247
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YOu aren't at full power though if changing to and holding the form consumes energy that you can't actually use in battle
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Cocoman
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Badabing!

DbzHybrid
Nov 3 2011, 09:08 AM
I understand what your getting at here.

The term "Full Power Super Saiyan" as an alternative for "Mastered Super Saiyan" really is misleading and incorrect.

I never understood why people named it so because 'Mastered' and 'Full Powered' is completely different.

People call it 'Mastered SSjin' because it is exactly that. Next to 'zero' strain on the body while in the form and full control on the Ki output.

IMO 'Full Power SSjin' is more misleading.
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Tony Soprano
 
I'm the mother *****in *****in one who calls the shots.
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+ Pyrus
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I take "Full-Power" to mean "Fully Benefited" in this case.
Spoiler: click to toggle
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Kruegs Outlandish
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From what I read, you all actually seem to believe that they is a difference.

I can give a bit of leeway depending on what some may believe Trained Super Saiyan is, but for the sake of avoid meaningless future arguments, it's usually nice to know the other person's notion of Mastered/Full-Power Super Saiyan.

Personally, I don't believe that there was a change in Super Saiyan, but rather a change in the user.

Theory #1
 
The user of Super Saiyan now has the stamina to match the output energy of Super Saiyan; thus, the user is now able to control Super Saiyan power. This means that the Super Saiyan, does not have to be at "Full Power" when in Super Saiyan state.

This is why Goku and Gohan can be Super Saiyan's without being powered-up; they have the stamina to control the power that comes with Super Saiyan.
ANALOGY


Of course, it's a different story if you believe that the power output/energy drain of Super Saiyan changes at all; I don't; I believe that Super Saiyan being such an energy drain was what made Goku and Gohan so strong in RoSaT training.

IYO, what would have made Super Saiyan change rather than, or along with, the user?

I suppose an analogy would be as such:

ANALOGY


This implies that there was something wrong with Super Saiyan Ki that was fixed in RoSaT. In this case, Super Saiyan at the Cell Games is actually different than Super Saiyan prior to. I don't see anything that would imply that in manga...

To summarize:
  • There could be a change in the user. The user is able to control Super Saiyan.
  • There could be a change in the Super Saiyan Transformation. Super Saiyan changed to become controllable.
Beliefs that would seem to couple the above mentioned:
  • The user became conditioned enough to control Super Saiyan Power. The user became strong from the Super Saiyan state.
  • The user learned to use the Super Saiyan state more efficiently. Power that was being wasted is now being used.
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Kruegs Outlandish
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DOUBLE POST:

Ex.

i am legend
termmeaning
MAX KImost ki held by fighter
KI DRAINki used per time by Super Saiyan


I'm saying Goku and Gohan do something to this effect:
pre- / post-MAX KIKI DRAIN
pre-100050
post-5000050

I'm hearing something closer to this from you all:
pre- / post-MAX KIKI DRAIN
pre-100050
post-10005
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lunar2
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personally, i use the fan term mastered super saiyan (mssj) because it is more accurate than the official term full power super saiyan (fpssj) for the exact reason pointed out in the OP.

until recently, i had a variable ssj multiplier of 2x for mssj and 50x for ssj, because i was using the daizenshuu interpretation of ssj as tapping into dormant ability. the theory was that as a saiyan became more accustomed to the ssj power, they learned to access some of it without transforming, leading to a shrinking multiplier and a rapidly increasing base.

now, I still use the dormant ability interpretation as a matter of convenience for explaining where the power comes from when the body doesn't change, but i use a static 10x multiplier for ssj, mastered or not. this is because of a different interpretation of the frieza fight, that would allow ssj to be much smaller than the daizenshuu states, negating any need for a variable multiplier.

edit: at last post. i would go with the second table, but reduce the ki drain on post to about 1. ssj is no more draining than full power in base.
Edited by lunar2, Nov 4 2011, 12:04 AM.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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SirParagon
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Sparking!

Indeed, so mssj is like goku converting his engine to be more efficient., it doesn't boost the power of the engine. That means he can stay at max power for a longer period.
Edited by SirParagon, Nov 4 2011, 12:15 AM.
New Account: Spirit Metaphor

Voluntarism?
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+ Ryebrid
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Cocoman
Nov 3 2011, 02:59 PM
DbzHybrid
Nov 3 2011, 09:08 AM
I understand what your getting at here.

The term "Full Power Super Saiyan" as an alternative for "Mastered Super Saiyan" really is misleading and incorrect.

I never understood why people named it so because 'Mastered' and 'Full Powered' is completely different.

People call it 'Mastered SSjin' because it is exactly that. Next to 'zero' strain on the body while in the form and full control on the Ki output.

IMO 'Full Power SSjin' is more misleading.
Dude im not saying i dont understand what it means lol, im saying i dont understand how people can call it "Full Powered Super Saiyan" when the OP clearly proves and/ or states it to be truly misleading.

"Mastered Super Saiyan" defines it to exactly what it is, the Mastered state of the Super Saiyan form.

@ KP

Still, Full Powered =/= Fully beneficial
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+ Pyrus
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DbzHybrid
Nov 4 2011, 08:44 AM
Cocoman
Nov 3 2011, 02:59 PM
DbzHybrid
Nov 3 2011, 09:08 AM
I understand what your getting at here.

The term "Full Power Super Saiyan" as an alternative for "Mastered Super Saiyan" really is misleading and incorrect.

I never understood why people named it so because 'Mastered' and 'Full Powered' is completely different.

People call it 'Mastered SSjin' because it is exactly that. Next to 'zero' strain on the body while in the form and full control on the Ki output.

IMO 'Full Power SSjin' is more misleading.
Dude im not saying i dont understand what it means lol, im saying i dont understand how people can call it "Full Powered Super Saiyan" when the OP clearly proves and/ or states it to be truly misleading.

"Mastered Super Saiyan" defines it to exactly what it is, the Mastered state of the Super Saiyan form.

@ KP

Still, Full Powered =/= Fully beneficial
How so? I just meant that when the guidebook uses "Full-Power", I take it to mean "getting everything out of Super Saiyan before ascending".
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

I suppose, using technical terminology, Goku WAS Full Power Super Saiyan, there's no way he couldn't be exerting his full power in that form at the current time. If you want to look at it from a better point of view, ''Full Power'' would be the full POTENTIAL power of the transformation.
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lunar2
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that was the full potential power of the form, as well. mssj doesn't change the multiplier. it's always x times base, no matter how good you get with the form. the benefit of mssj was not extra power, it was extra stamina.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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Kruegs Outlandish
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Well, I seem to be in the minority:
Quote:
 
Super Saiyan didn't change at all. Not factor, not ki use. Goku and Gohan's stats just became beast, and no one's stats came close... except Cell's... who dominated most of the battle... yeah. So the term suffices.
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