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Victorious Battle Power chart
Topic Started: Nov 2 2011, 05:00 PM (5,525 Views)
Kblo247
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Victorious
Nov 3 2011, 04:14 PM


Yeah but this is Mastered Super Saiyan, he likely did stay at 50%...when he was fighting Cell in the warm up no one (other than Gohan) knew Goku was still suppressed. Everyone thinks 50% Goku is 100% Goku and none of them watching the fight said "hey, this is way weaker than what Goku displayed on Korin tower". He should be at 50% there in his warm up with Cell and not just some random power. Also remember in the ROSAT he learned to stay in Super Saiyan for what was likely months..so 10 days at half power is nothing at this point.
Everyone doesn't think 50% Goku is real Goku, aside from Gohan. Piccolo said he held back his real power, on the lookout, in the anime, which the list is made from. Now that may have been the Kami in him or just from knowing Goku period, but he knew Goku held back when he showed half his power just like he and Gohan both saw something was wrong with his heart versus 19
Edited by Kblo247, Nov 3 2011, 04:48 PM.
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Cocoman
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Kblo247
Nov 3 2011, 04:43 PM
It can't be argued in the anime which the list is largely based on that Krillin sat around and enjoyed times of peace in that year. He was shown training to be ready and never let Goku down again, and fighting Garlic Jr (shrugged off Yamchas attack while supressed and knocked around Gohan while acting as well) in that year gap. He was also shown training at Kame House well before he even went to see Bulma once he presumably heard Vegeta returned to earth, as that is when he shows up at Capsule Corp. Then he goes to Roshis and detects Frieza coming, which prompts him to call Gohan so they can go head him off.

Yamcha was picked over Gohan to go down into the city by Goku as well, doesn't make him stronger by Yamchas own admission. Krillin got him the senzu bean and he and Goku were ready to go once they knew Yamcha was fine. And it was Krillin, not Trunks who made the plan to kill the present cell in the lab after several questions about how timelines would impact one another.Trunks went with him and Tien volunteered to go with Piccolo. Again that happened in the anime and Kai which this list comes from.

Gero had absorbed the energy of Vegeta and Piccolo, yet was useless, Krillin or Tien or Gohan for that matter was not going to make him with one hand strong enough to win without 17 and 18.

You really going to bring up the slip filler where Yamcha kicks Krillin and falls flat, then playfully kicks him in the face as he gets up while Krillin is saying are you makign fun of me, and ignore that Yamcha (and Tien) said he would not fight period at the Cell games when the others in Trunks, Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, 16, Piccolo, and Krillin were all set to go to the tourney. Krillin had to be forbade to go confront Cell by his one and only master who he lived with until the Cell Games. He said he would be ready and train, and Goku commented on him as well as he and Gohan being ready during their day together.

Yamcha and Tien were on the defensive but they only caught one off guard from behind. Krillin never got a single punch landed on him in the anime by his cell jr. Piccolo attacked his just like he did theirs. One of theirs that had been downed came from below and snuck him off guard. After that happens they all get pummeled, the only difference is that Krillin remains conscious while the other two are knocked out.

The fact Yamcha thinks he is the strongest with the qualifier sn't foreshadowing. No one can sense Buu on earth. No one including Piccolo even knew he was there. It was an assessment that he had no need to make unless if it held true at least when they were all last together at the games or some point between.

There is also the fact that in the pillar, it was Krillin chasing Yamcha through the pillar 3/4 times. Iirc in fact Yamcha isn't shown landing a punch just after shocks when he blocks Krillin.

And will you admit that in the anime, which once again the list is based on, Krillin showed more physical displays of power In the series and speed as a fighter than Tien did?

But it is contradicted by the manga!
Garlic Jr doesn't even exist!
The anime filler is quite frankly irrelevant considering it is contradicted by the manga. You can stick to the anime if you want but half of what you say is irrelevant.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter and it won't win any debates. In the manga Tenshinhan has more feats than Krillin.

Yamcha>Krillin according to 20's statement in the anime and that is all really.

Anyway i'm done having a silly convo about Krillin's anime feats lol (who is a frickin gag character in the anime btw).
Edited by Cocoman, Nov 3 2011, 05:01 PM.
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Kblo247
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Half of what I say can't be irrelevant if the damn battle power list is based on the anime and inclusive of its filler. You are just to stubborn to admit you are wrong and won't accept any argument as to why what you say is wrong.

If you want to discus the manga go talk about a list that excludes the anime and its filler, not one that does. It isn't that hard to comprehend that you are are ignoring the parameters of the actual thread at hand.

Edited by Kblo247, Nov 3 2011, 05:11 PM.
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Mihawk
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I don't get why Cocoman is constantly using a Diaz line to back himself up even though he constantly says he's against using it in some arguments but then uses it in others to supports his argument. Anyway I'm trying not to get personal so:

http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=17921

Akira Interview

"
(11) What's up with the third eye on my main man Tenshinhan? Is Tenshinhan human?
- Charles Moyer, California; Evan Coltin, Via Internet
T: In certain parts of Asia, beings with a third eye on their forehead are thought to be godlike and are said to possess the power of true seeing. It seems that Tenshinhan, who was raised by the evil Tsuru-Sen'nin [Crane Hermit], lost the ability to use the myriad powers of his third eye for good purposes.
"
So no, the Diaz contradicts Akira who wrote the manga.

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Cocoman
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illstand1
Nov 3 2011, 05:20 PM
I don't get why Cocoman is constantly using a Diaz line to back himself up even though he constantly says he's against using it in some arguments but then uses it in others to supports his argument. Anyway I'm trying not to get personal so:

http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=17921

Akira Interview

"
(11) What's up with the third eye on my main man Tenshinhan? Is Tenshinhan human?
- Charles Moyer, California; Evan Coltin, Via Internet
T: In certain parts of Asia, beings with a third eye on their forehead are thought to be godlike and are said to possess the power of true seeing. It seems that Tenshinhan, who was raised by the evil Tsuru-Sen'nin [Crane Hermit], lost the ability to use the myriad powers of his third eye for good purposes.
"
So no, the Diaz contradicts Akira who wrote the manga.
...and Goku wasn't supposed to be a Saiyan when he was 1st drawn and Piccolo wasn't supposed to be Namekian. What's your point? There is such a thing as 'changing your mind'.

The Daizenshuu statement isn't contradicted by the manga at all.

Anyway;
Quote:
 
are thought to be godlike


Remember Gods in DBZ aren't classified as "human".

Either way that doesn't help your argument.
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lol did you even read the statement? He was asked if he was human and he basically said yes, the third eye doesn't indicate that you aren't human since "...". He didn't ignore his question, he was killing two birds with one stone.

If you couldn't even get that then idk lol.

And no "godlike" doesn't = God in DBZ, unless it specifically says God. Dende is literally called "God". And just because most God's aren't human doesn't mean this one can't be.

"In certain parts of Asia, beings with a third eye on their forehead" - this literally says that he's a descendent from some tribe on Earth whatever type of tribe it may be.

Oh and just so you know:

http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz04.php?m=02&id=race#link
Go to Earthlings.

Quote:
 
The Earthling martial artists that came to fight alongside Goku throughout the long story. There are those who challenge their limits, those who fight for honor, and the like.
Martial Artists: Gyuumao, Mister Satan, Videl, Chaozu, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Yamcha, Chi Chi, Son Gohan, Kame-sennin, Uub, Tao Pai Pai, Mutaito, and Tsure-sennin


The Diaz does consider him of from a tribe of 3 eyed people, but also an Earthling. It says that the 3 eyed people were originally descendents of alien. So even in the Diaz he's classified in the same group as the rest of the humans.

Quote:
 
It's a small wonder then that Tenshinhan is a descendent of the Three-Eyed people, themselves the posterity of aliens

So in order for him to be classified as an Earthling by the great Diaz itself, his ancestry would have mixed with humans at some point. I don't know who jumped the gun when reading the Diaz and said that Tenshinhan was an alien, but they obviously missed that bold point.
Edited by Mihawk, Nov 3 2011, 06:28 PM.

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illstand1
Nov 3 2011, 05:38 PM
lol did you even read the statement? He was asked if he was human and he basically said yes, the third eye doesn't indicate that you aren't human since "...". He didn't ignore his question, he was killing two birds with one stone.

If you couldn't even get that then idk lol.

And no "godlike" doesn't = God in DBZ, unless it specifically says God. Dende is literally called "God". And just because most God's aren't human doesn't mean this one can't be.

"In certain parts of Asia, beings with a third eye on their forehead" - this literally says that he's a descendent from some tribe on Earth whatever type of tribe it may be.

Oh and just so you know:

http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz04.php?m=02&id=race#link
Go to Earthlings.

Quote:
 
The Earthling martial artists that came to fight alongside Goku throughout the long story. There are those who challenge their limits, those who fight for honor, and the like.
Martial Artists: Gyuumao, Mister Satan, Videl, Chaozu, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Yamcha, Chi Chi, Son Gohan, Kame-sennin, Uub, Tao Pai Pai, Mutaito, and Tsure-sennin


The Diaz does consider him of from a tribe of 3 eyed people, but also an Earthling. It says that the 3 eyed people were originally descendents of alien. So even in the Diaz he's classified in the same group as the rest of the humans.

Quote:
 
It's a small wonder then that Tenshinhan is a descendent of the Three-Eyed people, themselves the posterity of aliens

So in order for him to be classified as an Earthling by the great Diaz itself, his ancestry would have mixed with humans at some point. I don't know who jumped the gun when reading the Diaz and said that Tenshinhan was an alien, but they obviously missed that bold point.
But you're forgetting that 'humans' in dbz doesn't relate to any race. It just relates to being a certain group. For example the Saiyans are human, the Earthlings are human etc while Piccolo Daimao is a demon, Kibito is heavenly being and the Kaios/Kaioshins are gods.

The difference is Tenshinhan isn't completely an Earthling like Krillin and co. The 3rd eye is irrelevant. It's more to do with the bizarre techniques he uses;

"he has physical idiosyncrasies that can't be considered that of an Earthling, such as splitting into four people, and growing arms from his shoulders."

In short that interview is inconclusive. I think it's pretty clear that Tenshinhan was regarded as 'different' to normal Earthlings. His unique abilities are proof of this or else AT would have Roshi and Goku growing arms and *****.
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Quote:
 
But you're forgetting that 'humans' in dbz doesn't relate to any race. It just relates to being a certain group. For example the Saiyans are human, the Earthlings are human etc while Piccolo Daimao is a demon, Kibito is heavenly being and the Kaios/Kaioshins are gods.

Saiyans are human? Where does it say that? According to the Diaz, that's wrong. Here are the people classified humans according to the Diaz (I'm using the Diaz since that's the only place where it says this - the manga does not support Tien being a non-human):

http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz04.php?m=02&id=race#link
Quote:
 
Martial Artists: Gyuumao, Mister Satan, Videl, Chaozu, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Yamcha, Chi Chi, Son Gohan, Kame-sennin, Uub, Tao Pai Pai, Mutaito, and Tsure-sennin


Quote:
 
The difference is Tenshinhan isn't completely an Earthling like Krillin and co. The 3rd eye is irrelevant. It's more to do with the bizarre techniques he uses;

He isn't completely an Earthling, but according to the Diaz which is what we're arguing, he's enough % to be classified as one. The Diaz literally says he descendant of "people". Unlike Gohan who is classified as a Saiyan since he isn't enough Earthling.

Quote:
 

"he has physical idiosyncrasies that can't be considered that of an Earthling, such as splitting into four people, and growing arms from his shoulders."

In short that interview is inconclusive. I think it's pretty clear that Tenshinhan was regarded as 'different' to normal Earthlings. His unique abilities are proof of this or else AT would have Roshi and Goku growing arms and *****

That Diaz line does not mean that he's not human since another part classifies him as human. With that knowledge you can read it how it should be read:

physical idiosyncrasies that can't be considered that of an Earthling

That means he has characteristics that are inhuman. That doesn't mean that he's classified as a non Earthling since the Diaz doesn't do that itself. Many people have non-earthling characteristics and are still classified as Earthlings even :

Quote:
 

Each times she sneezes, Lunch changes from a good person to an evil person.


Quote:
 

The Boss Rabbit possess the ability to turn anyone he touches, be they human or animal, into a carrot. There is only one way to return them to normal: if Boss Rabbit claps his hands together, the carrot will return to normal.


Few more: Krillin does not have a nose.
Roshi buffs up way past human capacity.
Edited by Mihawk, Nov 3 2011, 07:04 PM.

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illstand1
Nov 3 2011, 07:00 PM
Quote:
 
But you're forgetting that 'humans' in dbz doesn't relate to any race. It just relates to being a certain group. For example the Saiyans are human, the Earthlings are human etc while Piccolo Daimao is a demon, Kibito is heavenly being and the Kaios/Kaioshins are gods.

Saiyans are human? Where does it say that? According to the Diaz, that's wrong. Here are the people classified humans according to the Diaz (I'm using the Diaz since that's the only place where it says this - the manga does not support Tien being a non-human):

http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz04.php?m=02&id=race#link
Quote:
 
Martial Artists: Gyuumao, Mister Satan, Videl, Chaozu, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Yamcha, Chi Chi, Son Gohan, Kame-sennin, Uub, Tao Pai Pai, Mutaito, and Tsure-sennin


Quote:
 
The difference is Tenshinhan isn't completely an Earthling like Krillin and co. The 3rd eye is irrelevant. It's more to do with the bizarre techniques he uses;

He isn't completely an Earthling, but according to the Diaz which is what we're arguing, he's enough % to be classified as one. The Diaz literally says he descendant of "people". Unlike Gohan who is classified as a Saiyan since he isn't enough Earthling.

Quote:
 

"he has physical idiosyncrasies that can't be considered that of an Earthling, such as splitting into four people, and growing arms from his shoulders."

In short that interview is inconclusive. I think it's pretty clear that Tenshinhan was regarded as 'different' to normal Earthlings. His unique abilities are proof of this or else AT would have Roshi and Goku growing arms and *****

That Diaz line does not mean that he's not human since another part classifies him as human. With that knowledge you can read it how it should be read:

physical idiosyncrasies that can't be considered that of an Earthling

That means he has characteristics that are inhuman. That doesn't mean that he's classified as a non Earthling since the Diaz doesn't do that itself. Many people have non-earthling characteristics and are still classified as Earthlings even :

Quote:
 

Each times she sneezes, Lunch changes from a good person to an evil person.


Quote:
 

The Boss Rabbit possess the ability to turn anyone he touches, be they human or animal, into a carrot. There is only one way to return them to normal: if Boss Rabbit claps his hands together, the carrot will return to normal.


Few more: Krillin does not have a nose.
Roshi buffs up way past human capacity.
"Herms"
 
----Notice:This old thread is part of my series of guides. To avoid necro-posting, please post any comments you have in the sticky thread for my guides, rather than here. Thanks!----

So I’m always going on about how even aliens count as “humans” in DB terms, and I figured that it’s time I just made a thread about the topic for future reference. Basically this thread will try to go over precisely what is and isn’t referred to as human throughout the series. The Japanese word in question here is 人間/ningen (as in jinzou-ningen). First, let’s start off with Saiyans.

Saiyans

When Raditz first tells Goku the big news, this is what he says:
Quote:
 
First, you are not one of this planet’s humans!! You were born on Planet Vegeta, and are part of the strongest warrior race in the entire universe, the Saiyans!!!

He doesn’t say that Goku isn’t a human, only that he isn’t a human of this planet. Admittedly that’s hardly bullet-proof evidence on its own, but it fits in well with the later quotes. This is also a good example of how a lot of these instances where aliens are referred to as humans tend not to survive translation. Here, it sounds a lot better in English just to say that Goku isn’t from this planet, rather than to bother saying that he’s not a human from this planet. In Viz for instance, Raditz just tells Goku that he “is no Earthling”. I can’t exactly blame them for that, but it does make my job in this thread a tad harder.

Next, there’s when Vegeta explains to Goku about the Oozaru transformation:
Quote:
 
The battle power of a Saiyan who has become an Oozaru is 10 times what it is when they’re human!!!!

There’s a few interesting things about this quote. First of course is that we’ve got a pure Saiyan, born and raised, referring to his race as “human”. Second though is the distinction between human Saiyans and Oozaru Saiyans. In other words, only regular Saiyans count as humans, while once they transform into Oozarus they apparently no longer do. So it seems that in DB terms, being a human isn’t simply a matter of species. Members of a certain species can potentially transform from human to non-human. Being human also apparently doesn’t have to do solely with sentience or intelligence, since as an Oozaru, Vegeta is clearly every bit as intelligent as normal (for as much as that’s worth). This also raises the question of what an Oozaru Saiyan counts as, if they’re not human. I guess they probably count as animals.

Much later in the series, when No.18 is fighting Vegeta, she says:
Quote:
 
I’m surprised. Even if you are an alien, who would have thought that a flesh-and-blood human could do so much?

So there it is again: Vegeta may be an alien, but he’s still a human.

Then later in the fight, No.17 adds:
Quote:
 
Son Goku is the strongest in the world, right? Among humans, that is…

Remember, 17 and 18 may be ignorant of what a Super Saiyan is, but they’re shown to clearly be aware that Goku and Vegeta are Saiyans (the 18 quote above being one example). Speaking of which, I think I just found a plot hole: the first time Vegeta is said to be the Saiyan prince is during the Namek arc, right? But 17 refers to Vegeta as the Saiyan prince during his battle with 18. Gero didn’t monitor Goku and co. on Namek, so how does 17 know that?

Anyway, in the Boo arc when Kibito is healing Gohan, he says:
Quote:
 
To think that there would be a human who’d move with such gigantic energy as this

Kaioshin and Kibito both know what a Super Saiyan is (to a certain extent at least), so they presumably know that Goku and co. are aliens. I suppose that taking this quote on its own you could argue that Gohan, being half Earthling, counts as a human while Goku or Vegeta don’t, but of course the above quotes show that pure Saiyans count as humans. In Viz instead of human, Kibito calls Gohan a “mortal”. Viz likes to have gods (and sometimes demons) refer to regular folks as “mortals”, even though the term doesn’t really fit DB’s worldview, since all DB gods have natural lifespans and are capable of being killed. There are a few other quotes during the Boo arc where Kibito or Kaioshin refer to Goku and the other Saiyans as human, but I’ll save those for the “gods” section later.

Finally, there’s this quote from Goku from when he’s telling Piccolo about his ingenious plan to drag the Boo arc out a few extra volumes:
Quote:
 
I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…

So even years after learning that he’s a Saiyan, Goku still refers to himself as a human.

There are some quotes that go against this notion that Saiyans and other aliens count as humans, though notably they both come from before the concept of aliens is introduced into the story. First, there’s Goku’s remark during his final battle with Piccolo Daimao:

Quote:
 
Piccolo: Th…there’s no way that a human could possibly stand against me, Piccolo Daimao-sama…
Goku: Hehehe…I’ve got a tail, so maybe I’m not human…

Still, though Goku entertains the notion of not being a human before he learns of his Saiyan origin, the Boo arc quote above shows that even years after finding out that he’s a Saiyan he still considers himself human.

Then there’s this exchange between Shen and Yamcha at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai:
Quote:
 
Shen: Don’t let this get out, but actually…I’m not human.
Yamcha: Hehhehhe…So that’s what you wanted to say?…Don’t tell me you’re claiming to be an alien or something?

So Yamcha doesn’t seem to think that aliens are humans. But hey, this is Yamcha we’re talking about here. What’s he know about anything? But then, what does Shen mean when he says he’s not human, anyway? It’s not until the Saiyan arc that the God of Earth learns he’s a Namekian, after all. Apparently, the idea is that being a god means he doesn’t count as a human. Anyway, this brings me to my next two topics: Namekians (plus aliens in general), and gods.

Namekians and other aliens

OK, so actually I haven’t been able to find any instances where Namekians (who are known to be Namekians) are referred to as “human”. There is this statement from Goku during the 23rd TB though:

Quote:
 
God and Piccolo were originally a single human…The evil heart he expelled in order to become God turned into Piccolo…That’s why if either of them kills the other, they’ll both die…

So according to Goku, God and Piccolo were originally a human. This human split into two; the good half become a god, and the evil half became a demon. Of course, Goku didn’t know God was a Namekian at this point, so this doesn’t really prove anything about Namekians counting as humans. If does however nicely disprove the misconception some people have that Piccolo was only considered a demon because of his funky Namekian features or whatever. Here we see that the child of Katatz was seen as a human, and only Piccolo was considered a demon.

Anyway, there is at least one line indicating that aliens besides Saiyans also count as humans. While fighting Goku, Ginyu says this:
Quote:
 
The truth is that I’m also the type of human who can freely change their battle power…!

So Ginyu considers himself human. And if aliens like Saiyans count as humans, and even more weird-looking (by DB standards) aliens like Ginyu count as humans, I can’t see any reason why Namekians would not also count as humans as well.

Gods and whatnot

OK, so to backtrack a bit, here are some quotes from the 23rd TB again:
Quote:
 
Shen: Don’t let this get out, but actually…I’m not human.

Quote:
 
Goku: God and Piccolo were originally a single human…The evil heart he expelled in order to become God turned into Piccolo…That’s why if either of them kills the other, he’ll die himself…

There’s also this one from Shen, during his fight with Piccolo:
Quote:
 
Even considering that I’ve borrowed a weak human body, the gap between our powers is too big…He must have trained considerably in his own way.

So Shen/God doesn’t consider himself a human, while Goku refers to him as originally having been a human. So it seems that despite having once been human, now that he’s a god he no longer counts as one.

On the other hand, there’s Popo’s line from when Goku first comes to the temple. Popo says that Goku is “the first human to have ever come here”. This is inconsistent with the notion that the child of Katatz was a human before becoming God, since obviously he came to the temple before. But then, Popo’s line is pretty inconsistent with all we know about the whole DB god system anyway. Popo’s been around to see many Gods of Earth come and go, and presumably these gods were all selected from amongst the inhabitants of Earth, just as the child of Katatz was. So unless Earthlings don’t count as human in DB terms (!), I’d say we should just ignore Popo’s line about no human having ever come there before.

There are also a few things Popo says to Goku that indicate that he doesn’t consider himself human:
Quote:
 
You did well to defeat Piccolo Daimao, despite being a human.

Quote:
 
We’re incredibly high in the air up here. The air is thin. It’s tough on you humans.

So Popo is not human, and God isn’t a human, but God used to be a human, before he became God (probably).

Moving on to Kaioshin and Kibito, after Goku kills Yakon, Kaioshin says:
Quote:
 
Wh…what a completely unbelievable fact…that I, Kaioshin, should be thrown into a panic by humans of the lower world…

It’s kind of interesting that Kaioshin specifically says “humans of the lower world”. So are there humans of the upper world? Perhaps this means that not everybody in the afterlife is automatically a non-human. We now know that Kaios and Kaioshins are chosen from members of a race called the Shin-jin (Core People). Perhaps ordinary Shin-jin count as humans, while only those who have been selected to be Kaios or Kaioshins don’t? They are Core People after all, and aren’t people humans? Maybe?

Earlier I quoted a line from Kibito talking about how unbelievable it is for a human like Gohan to have so much energy. This implies that Kibito doesn’t consider himself human. There are some other lines like that. When Kaioshin tells Kibito to bring Gohan to the Kaioshin Realm, Kibito says:
Quote:
 
Y…you can’t seriously mean…that you intend to let a human into the Ka…Kaioshin Realm…!? In…into that sacred region which not even the Dai-Kaio is able to enter…

Kaioshin and Kibito have been to the Kaioshin Realm before, so obviously they don’t count as human. And Kibito’s annoyance at the idea of a mere human going where even the Dai-Kaio isn’t allowed indicates that the Dai-Kaio is also not a human. So presumably all Kaios and Kaioshins aren’t human.

Finally, once they all reach the Kaioshin Realm and Kaioshin reveals his plan to have Gohan use the Z Sword to defeat Majin Boo, Kibito says:
Quote:
 
A-are you serious, Kaioshin-sama…?!! There’s no way that a human or the like would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…

This shows even more clearly than before that Kibito doesn’t consider himself human.

So in summary, planetary gods and their attendants, as well as Kaios, Kaioshins, or their attendants, do not count as humans in DB terms.

Demons

OK, so gods don’t count as human, but what about demons? They don’t seem to make the cut either. During the Daimao arc, there’s several instances of Piccolo and his spawn referring to humans in contemptuous terms. For instance, there’s Tambourine’s line from his second fight with Goku:

Quote:
 
I'm…impossible…There’s no way we warriors of the Demon Clan…could be d…done in by a human…

Then there’s Piccolo’s line from his final battle with Goku, quoted earlier:
Quote:
 
Th…there’s no way that a human could possibly stand against me, Piccolo Daimao-sama…

There’s also a few other lines like that, particularly with Piccolo during the 23rd TB, but you get the idea. Daimao and his demon spawn don’t consider themselves human.

What about Majin Boo? He does refer to humans in an “othering” sort of way like Piccolo and co. do, going on about killing humans, eating candy made from humans, etc. Also, Oob’s Daizenshuu 7 bio describes him as Majin Boo reincarnated as a human, indicating Boo himself wasn’t human.

Androids

As you probably know, androids are literally jinzou-ningen, “artificial humans”. And we’ve already seen the quote where 17 refers to Goku as the strongest in the world…among humans. There’s also Kuririn’s attempted wish after the Cell Games where he asks Shenlong to return Androids No.17 and 18 into the “humans they were before”. So 17, 18, Cell, etc aren’t humans…they’re artificial humans. Fairly simple. Incidentally, the idea that Cell, a being made primarily from alien DNA, is an “artificial human” is another example of how aliens count as humans in DB.

Animals, animal-type Earthlings, and monsters

In DB there are those humanoid animal people, like Oolong or the King. The daizenshuu and later guidebooks classify these people as animal-type Earthlings. Here’s an explanation from Daizenshuu 7:
Quote:
 
Earthlings are by nature composed of 3 completely different-looking types of humans. These are the human-types, the animal-types, and the monster-types. What’s more, even within those types of humans, there are many people who look completely different. Because of this, it seems that they have developed an ethics of not discriminating against humans based on their appearance.

Daizenshuu 4 describes animal-type Earthlings in this way: “they look like animals, but they speak, use weapons, express human emotions, and behave just like humans”. Human-type Earthlings are the “most numerous kind of Earthling, the general human type”; these include people like Bulma or Yamcha. Meanwhile, monster-types are “Earthlings who fit into neither the animal-type nor human-type”, such as weirdoes like Pilaf. As seen in the Daizenshuu 7 quote, confusingly all 3 of these types count as humans, although only one in particular is identified as “human-type”. They’re just extra humany humans, I guess. Regardless, it’s clear that Oolong and co. are human.

On the other hand, there are regular animals like Sea Turtle or Bee, who don’t have humanoid bodies like Oolong. Daizenshuu 4 classifies them as simply animals, separate from animal-type Earthlings. Animals like these presumably don’t count as humans. When Goku meets Bulma, he says that she’s the first other human he’s met, though he’s been constantly surrounded by animals like tigers, bears, and fish. Oozaru Saiyans would probably also qualify as animals, since as we’ve seen they’re not humans.

Either that or they’re just monsters. Daizenshuu 4 refers to Giran as a “monster who is neither a member of the Demon Clan nor a monster-type Earthling”. So just as regular animals are separate from animal-type Earthlings, there are also regular monsters who are separate from monster-type Earthlings. Buyon’s also counted as a monster. Monsters like these probably aren’t humans either. Then there’s Yakon, who Kaioshin refers to as a majuu, a demonic/magical beast. Essentially, this is the animal equivalent of the term majin, demonic/magical person. So Yakon counts as a beast, not a human.

……………………………………………………………………………………………….

And that’s about it. Here’s a chart to help keep all of that straight:

Human

Human-type Earthlings
---Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Bulma, etc

Animal-type Earthlings
---Oolong, Puar, Shuu, the King, the Carrotizer Bunny, etc

Monster-type Earthlings
---Pilaf, Mummy-kun, Dracula Man, the Invisible Man

Saiyans (except when Oozaru)
---Goku, Vegeta, etc

Namekians (probably)
---Dende, the child of Katatz, Piccolo (after recovering from his spat of demonism), etc

Miscellaneous aliens
---Ginyu, Freeza (probably), etc

Non-Human

Gods and their attendants
---God of Earth, Mister Popo, Kaios, Kaioshins, Kibito, etc

Demons
---Piccolo Daimao, Tambourine, Majin Boo, etc

Animals
---Sea Turtle, Oozaru Saiyans, Yakon (kind of a crossover between “animal” and “demon”), etc

Androids
---Nos.17, 18, Cell, etc



Actually the Daizenshuu regards all hybrids as Earthlings according to this diagram;

Posted Image


Exactly his characteristics make him differently from normal Earthlings, in other words, unique.

The other people's characteristics aren't really relevant. Krillin's lack of a nose isn't unique. Neither is Roshi's buffing up.
There are people around who have no nose and there are other people in the DB universe who can buff up.

Growing arms and splitting into several different people is unique to Tenshinhan.
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Quote:
 
Actually the Daizenshuu regards all hybrids as Earthlings according to this diagram;


Quote:
 
Martial Artists: Gyuumao, Mister Satan, Videl, Chaozu, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Yamcha, Chi Chi, Son Gohan, Kame-sennin, Uub, Tao Pai Pai, Mutaito, and Tsure-sennin


Non-martial artist earthlings:

Quote:
 
Earthlings largely divided into three varieties: human, animal, and monster. There exist sharp-minded people, people who have unique attacks, people with distinctive abilities, and the like.
Human-type: Bulma's mother, Brief, Uranai Baba, Marron, Bulma, Lunch (pre-transformation), Lunch (post-transformation), Yajirobe, Upa & Bora, Mai, and the Tenkaichi Budoukai announcer
Animal-type: Puar, Boss Rabbit, Shuu, Oolong, and the King
Monster-type: Akkuman, Pilaf, Mummy-kun, Dracula Man, Suke-san



Quote:
 

Exactly his characteristics make him differently from normal Earthlings, in other words, unique.

The other people's characteristics aren't really relevant. Krillin's lack of a nose isn't unique. Neither is Roshi's buffing up.
There are people around who have no nose and there are other people in the DB universe who can buff up.

Growing arms and splitting into several different people is unique to Tenshinhan.

So yes even Earthlings with unique characteristics are up there. Again the Diaz literally says that tien is descendant of humans without beating around the bush.

I don't know what's up with that picture but it's completely contradicting what the Diaz says here about Sayians being classified other than Earthlings.

Quote:
 
The Saiyan are the principle race of DragonBall. Called a warrior race, they are a race that has come to shape the universe's history through their superior battle power.
Quarter Saiyan: Pan
Half Saiyan: Son Gohan, adult Trunks, Son Goten, Trunks, & Bra
Pure Saiyan: Raditz, Vegeta, Nappa, and Kakarot (Son Goku)


edit: I just realized that gohan is on both so I don't know what's up with that. Maybe 50% is the breaking point to be Earthling? basically if the diaz were held true and gohan is included in the statement, it means the diaz contradicts the manga since Gohan > Krillin. Then again maybe the translation is off and Yamcha meant only humans.
Edited by Mihawk, Nov 3 2011, 07:40 PM.

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Cocoman
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Badabing!

I cba discussing this with you any more. I have another scan which describes Goku, Vegeta, Dende etc as naturalized Earthlings but I'm not going to bother.
You really should try not to come across like your opinion means anything;
Quote:
 
You need to have Krillin above Tien in the namek saga to end of the cell saga or namek saga to EOZ. Personally I think it's EOZ.


Oh and btw I guess you have Krillin>Uub considering you have EOZ Krillin>Tenshinhan right?

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Krillin didn't have a nose, didn't make him any less human. Since this list is anime based, you better remember that Krillin was also able to split himself into three people vs Nappa, showing what he called his tri form technique.

Can't the human or earthling Son Gohan depending on your translation be the original Grandpa Gohan, who the family got their Son name from?
Edited by Kblo247, Nov 3 2011, 08:28 PM.
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Mihawk
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Cocoman
Nov 3 2011, 07:46 PM
I cba discussing this with you any more. I have another scan which describes Goku, Vegeta, Dende etc as naturalized Earthlings but I'm not going to bother.
You really should try not to come across like your opinion means anything;
Quote:
 
You need to have Krillin above Tien in the namek saga to end of the cell saga or namek saga to EOZ. Personally I think it's EOZ.


Oh and btw I guess you have Krillin>Uub considering you have EOZ Krillin>Tenshinhan right?

I admit that Krillin > Tien EOZ is opinion (but I will do some research on Yamacha's abilities).

The diaz is too conclusive in this aspect

Quote:
 

Tenshinhan uses techniques that are impossible to think of being those of an Earthling, such as growing arms from his back or splitting into four people. It's a small wonder then that Tenshinhan is a descendent of the Three-Eyed people, themselves the posterity of aliens, and that he has a unique physical composition as a throwback to his ancestors.


So there's no point of arguing that. Tien descends from humans according to the Diaz. He has unique abilities thanks to his ancestry, which is why it's believe his techniques are Earthling. Tien not being human is not stated in the manga, but the Diaz clearly says he's decedent from a human tribe which in turn were descendant from aliens. Using selective reading, you can come to the conclusion that it's just "impossible to think of being those of an Earthling" without reading it in context. The Diaz is only talking about his techniques that are out of this world.

Obviously I don't think Krillin > Uub since he wasn't alive at the time.


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Badabing!

illstand1
Nov 3 2011, 07:57 PM
Cocoman
Nov 3 2011, 07:46 PM
I cba discussing this with you any more. I have another scan which describes Goku, Vegeta, Dende etc as naturalized Earthlings but I'm not going to bother.
You really should try not to come across like your opinion means anything;
Quote:
 
You need to have Krillin above Tien in the namek saga to end of the cell saga or namek saga to EOZ. Personally I think it's EOZ.


Oh and btw I guess you have Krillin>Uub considering you have EOZ Krillin>Tenshinhan right?

I admit that Krillin > Tien EOZ is opinion (but I will do some research on Yamacha's abilities).

The diaz is too conclusive in this aspect

Quote:
 

Tenshinhan uses techniques that are impossible to think of being those of an Earthling, such as growing arms from his back or splitting into four people. It's a small wonder then that Tenshinhan is a descendent of the Three-Eyed people, themselves the posterity of aliens, and that he has a unique physical composition as a throwback to his ancestors.


So there's no point of arguing that. Tien descends from humans according to the Diaz. He has unique abilities thanks to his ancestry, which is why it's believe his techniques are Earthling. Tien not being human is not stated in the manga, but the Diaz clearly says he's decedent from a human tribe which in turn were descendant from aliens. Using selective reading, you can come to the conclusion that it's just "impossible to think of being those of an Earthling" without reading it in context. The Diaz is only talking about his techniques that are out of this world.

Obviously I don't think Krillin > Uub since he wasn't alive at the time.

Didn't you read my post? ALL OF THEM ARE HUMANS INC THE SAIYANS etc.
You're the one being selective. Tenshinhan is a hybrid as is Gohan.Kaioshin and Elder Kaioshin call Gohan an Earthling so if you want to take it as it is then Krillin>Gohan.

I thought AT was stating that Krillin is the strongest Earthling in the manga and since that isn't contradicted then Krillin must be >Uub right?

I'm done here. Reply if you want yada, yada.
Edited by Cocoman, Nov 3 2011, 08:20 PM.
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Quote:
 
Didn't you read my post? ALL OF THEM ARE HUMANS INC THE SAIYANS etc.
You're the one being selective. Tenshinhan is a hybrid as is Gohan.Kaioshin and Elder Kaioshin call Gohan an Earthling so if you want to take it as it is then Krillin>Gohan.

Well the Diaz says that Tien is human, not only Earthling which is my point. Kaioshin called Gohan an Earthling at best, not a human. So I was wrong about the whole Earthling thing which is stated in the Diaz (since Gohan is also Earthling according to the Diaz), but Tien is human according to the Diaz and Gohan is not.
Quote:
 

I thought AT was stating that Krillin is the strongest Earthling in the manga and since that isn't contradicted then Krillin must be >Uub right?

AT was stating it at a certain time period. You need to read it in context for it to be right. Taking things out of context is what causes problems

Quote:
 
I'm done here. Reply if you want yada, yada.

Thanks :)
Edited by Mihawk, Nov 3 2011, 08:27 PM.

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