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Zenkai's After Freeza
Topic Started: Oct 13 2011, 09:36 AM (4,102 Views)
NavonWise
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They were never beaten to the point where they almost died. And again, the gap was too big for them to make a change. Zenkai was already established in the Frieza, Akira wouldn't btea talking about the same thing over and over when we know happens when you almost die and come back.
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Victorious
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illstand1
Nov 10 2011, 06:42 PM
Victorious
Nov 10 2011, 06:39 PM
illstand1
Nov 10 2011, 06:31 PM
Victorious
Nov 10 2011, 06:23 PM
illstand1
Nov 10 2011, 06:15 PM
Victorious
Nov 10 2011, 06:04 PM
illstand1
Nov 10 2011, 05:53 PM
Victorious
Nov 10 2011, 05:00 PM
Gohan never got any zenkai.

There are no zenkais after a Saiyan achieves Super Saiyan.

Cell is the only one in the entire story to ever get a zenkai after the Freeza arc. He has a Saiyan genetic component, but he's not a Saiyan.
If it's stated that Zenkai's are a saiyan attribute it has to be contradicted at least once for it to be proven false. "Innocent until proven guilty".
I never said they were not a attribute.
You said that saiyan's lost the attribute which has to be supported somewhere. It doesn't say they kept it or lost it anywhere after SSJ. So by default they have it unless it's proven they don't.
There's no evidence any of them get zenkais after Super Saiyan.
There isn't any evidence that they don't get it. So since there's no evidence on both sides, since it's been proven that at one point they do get it, that's the best answer.
There's plenty of evidence they don't get it...the evidence for not getting something is not getting something, lol

SSJ Goku beaten up and knocked out by Android 19, never noted to get zenkai, power never noted to increase
SSJ Vegeta, beaten up and knocked out by Android 18, never noted to get a zenkai, power never noted to increase
SSJ Future Trunks, beaten up and knocked out by Android 17, never noted to get a zenkai, power never noted to increase.
USSJ Vegeta, beaten up and knocked unconscious by Perfect Cell, never noted to get a zenkai, power never stated to increase.

MSSJ Goku, SSJ Trunks, SSJ Vegeta in the Cell games are all beaten up by the Cell Juniors to a point where they can't even move, they eat senzu beans and none of their powers were noted to get higher or have changed.


And that's just the Cell arc..in the Buu arc it's the same. Even Ultimate Gohan gets beaten silly by Buutenks and then gets healed by Dende. Buutenks notes that although Gohan is healed his power didn't increase and then beats him up some more.
Which one of those battles would zenkai allow them to win the battle with the next villain so the author would bother noting it for you to notice.
How do we know a zenkai would or would not help? The only one noted after the Freeza arc certainly seemed to help Perfect Cell. He went from being two shot fodder to breaking SSJ2 kid Gohan's arm with a simple generic ki blast.

Goku in the Freeza arc gets a 33x zenkai....goes from 90,000 to 3,000,000....Vegeta also went from 30,000ish to around 500,000....that's like 15x


Buuhan is less than twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan and if Gohan even got a small one it would have made a difference. Yet Buuhan laughs and says Gohan may be healed but his power didn't increase.


No zenkais after Super Saiyan, there's 0 evidence.


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They were never beaten to the point where they almost died.


Many of them were unconscious, after Vegeta's battle with Goku or Recoome he wasn't even unconscious. Plus Vegeta's arm got snapped by Android 18's kick...he looked to be in worse shape after that fight then any of the other ones I remember.


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@Victorious. getting beaten up doesn't cause zenkais, nor does getting knocked out. receiving a near death injury is the only trigger for zenkais. after frieza, the only "saiyans" to receive near death injuries were cell and gohan.


I believe Android 17 told Krillin if Krillin doesnt give them all senzu beans they might die. Many of the battles where the Super Saiyans get beat up seem even worse IMO.
Edited by Victorious, Nov 10 2011, 06:59 PM.
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freexa
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After the Frieza saga, the power levels got so huge that noting zenkai was all but useless except for in Cell's case because not only did he get blown the f up, he had to pretty much regenerate his whole body in space. The increase that anyone else got that wasn't noted in the series probably didn't get a substantial enough increase to matter.
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+ Pyrus
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A broken arm wouldn't kill someone. Vegeta after Recoome's beating was bleeding out. He would've died for sure.
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Victorious
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I don't see how Vegeta was any worse after Recoome or Zarbon or Goku, then he was after Android 18, Perfect Cell, etc. Or Gohan against Buutenks than he was against Freeza.

It's just bs...there's no zenkais after Freeza. No one is ever noted to get one except for Perfect Cell after his self destruct. And then it's quite plainly shown, implied, stated, and whatever else that he actually got one.

I like many other fans just believe Toriyama abandoned the concept after the Freeza arc and the Saiyans reached Super Saiyan status. And since no Super Saiyans ever were shown or implied to get them, I agree with the original poster that AT just intended them to help the Saiyan get closer to Super Saiyan. I also think once a Saiyan gets closer to Super Saiyan (or rather the base level a Saiyan needs to have to turn Super Saiyan) the zenkais become much larger than usual...and perhaps potential also plays a role too.
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Kruegs Outlandish
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possible (or certain) instances of Zenkai after Frieza:

Vegeta from Initial Perfect Cell: Vegeta was bad off, I believe there was a Krillin statement about it.
Cell from self-destruction: duh
Gohan from Energy extraction: shrugs; would he have died?
Gohan from Buu: definition of near death. HE GOT IT!!! XD !@!!

not instances of Zenkai:

Goku from #19: Goku wasn't beaten near lifeless from #19.
Vegeta from #18: Vegeta only had his arm broken.
Goku from Heart Virus: Goku wasn't brought to near death.
Cell from Goku: Instantaneous Movement + Kamehameha did not bring him to near-death.
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freexa
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Goku was in a coma man. That's pretty near death if you ask me.
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Victorious
Nov 10 2011, 07:38 PM
I don't see how Vegeta was any worse after Recoome or Zarbon or Goku, then he was after Android 18, Perfect Cell, etc. Or Gohan against Buutenks than he was against Freeza.

It's just bs...there's no zenkais after Freeza. No one is ever noted to get one except for Perfect Cell after his self destruct. And then it's quite plainly shown, implied, stated, and whatever else that he actually got one.

I like many other fans just believe Toriyama abandoned the concept after the Freeza arc and the Saiyans reached Super Saiyan status. And since no Super Saiyans ever were shown or implied to get them, I agree with the original poster that AT just intended them to help the Saiyan get closer to Super Saiyan. I also think once a Saiyan gets closer to Super Saiyan (or rather the base level a Saiyan needs to have to turn Super Saiyan) the zenkais become much larger than usual...and perhaps potential also plays a role too.
I don't have the moves for Gohan, but Vegeta wasn't about to die from #18. He was bleeding profusely against Zarbon and especially Recoome. Against Cell, when would there have been a comment on his strength? He was never the focus at any point.

Besides, the SEG states zenkais just become miniscule.
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Victorious
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Kamikaze Pyro
Nov 10 2011, 07:56 PM
Victorious
Nov 10 2011, 07:38 PM
I don't see how Vegeta was any worse after Recoome or Zarbon or Goku, then he was after Android 18, Perfect Cell, etc. Or Gohan against Buutenks than he was against Freeza.

It's just bs...there's no zenkais after Freeza. No one is ever noted to get one except for Perfect Cell after his self destruct. And then it's quite plainly shown, implied, stated, and whatever else that he actually got one.

I like many other fans just believe Toriyama abandoned the concept after the Freeza arc and the Saiyans reached Super Saiyan status. And since no Super Saiyans ever were shown or implied to get them, I agree with the original poster that AT just intended them to help the Saiyan get closer to Super Saiyan. I also think once a Saiyan gets closer to Super Saiyan (or rather the base level a Saiyan needs to have to turn Super Saiyan) the zenkais become much larger than usual...and perhaps potential also plays a role too.
I don't have the moves for Gohan, but Vegeta wasn't about to die from #18. He was bleeding profusely against Zarbon and especially Recoome. Against Cell, when would there have been a comment on his strength? He was never the focus at any point.

Besides, the SEG states zenkais just become miniscule.
I don't remember Vegeta having any more blood against Zarbon or Goku than against Android 18. I don't see how he was closer to death at all after his battle with Zarbon than after his battle with Cell or the Androids. Both times he was knocked unconscious and he either needed to be healed with a senzu bean or the rejuvenation tank to get back on his feet.
Edited by Victorious, Nov 10 2011, 09:22 PM.
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NavonWise
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Victorious
Nov 10 2011, 06:55 PM
Many of them were unconscious, after Vegeta's battle with Goku or Recoome he wasn't even unconscious. Plus Vegeta's arm got snapped by Android 18's kick...he looked to be in worse shape after that fight then any of the other ones I remember.
Being unconscious is not the same as almost getting killed. With Zarbon and Recoome Vegeta was badly hurt, losing blood, etc. With 18, all he had was a broken arm and got knocked out, but it doesn't mean he was about to die. Vegeta was about to die by Krillin's blast back in the Frieza saga and he was still conscious.
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Victorious
Nov 10 2011, 09:16 PM
Kamikaze Pyro
Nov 10 2011, 07:56 PM
Victorious
Nov 10 2011, 07:38 PM
I don't see how Vegeta was any worse after Recoome or Zarbon or Goku, then he was after Android 18, Perfect Cell, etc. Or Gohan against Buutenks than he was against Freeza.

It's just bs...there's no zenkais after Freeza. No one is ever noted to get one except for Perfect Cell after his self destruct. And then it's quite plainly shown, implied, stated, and whatever else that he actually got one.

I like many other fans just believe Toriyama abandoned the concept after the Freeza arc and the Saiyans reached Super Saiyan status. And since no Super Saiyans ever were shown or implied to get them, I agree with the original poster that AT just intended them to help the Saiyan get closer to Super Saiyan. I also think once a Saiyan gets closer to Super Saiyan (or rather the base level a Saiyan needs to have to turn Super Saiyan) the zenkais become much larger than usual...and perhaps potential also plays a role too.
I don't have the moves for Gohan, but Vegeta wasn't about to die from #18. He was bleeding profusely against Zarbon and especially Recoome. Against Cell, when would there have been a comment on his strength? He was never the focus at any point.

Besides, the SEG states zenkais just become miniscule.
I don't remember Vegeta having any more blood against Zarbon or Goku than against Android 18. I don't see how he was closer to death at all after his battle with Zarbon than after his battle with Cell or the Androids. Both times he was knocked unconscious and he either needed to be healed with a senzu bean or the rejuvenation tank to get back on his feet.
Vegeta after Zarbon:
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Vegeta after Recoome:
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Vegeta after #18:
Posted Image

You can't tell me Vegeta doesn't look more *****ed up after fighting Recoome and Zarbon than he does after fighting #18. He took the senzu after fighting #18 because his arm was broken. Other than that, the only thing wrong with him was his pride; he was physically okay and wasn't going to die. He would have bled out and died against Freeza's forces.
Edited by Pyrus, Nov 10 2011, 09:40 PM.
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NavonWise
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As I said, being unconscious does not mean your about to die, and after Frieza there weren't many times that this happen. And again, there were no more PL readings, who knows if the enemies were far away from them for a zenkai to be noticed. Also isn't that one of the reasons why Saiyans are so damn powerful? Because they train till almost dying and get healed back? We saw this with Goku when he was going to Namek.
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Victorious
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He wasn't going to bleed to death fighting Freeza's forces, 18 opened a bigger blood gash on his head with that headbutt she gave him than anything Zarbon gave him. She also snapped his arm back and broken bones alone can mean your blood flow will get all out of whack.

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As I said, being unconscious does not mean your about to die, and after Frieza there weren't many times that this happen.


Zarbon and 18 knocked him unconscious, Recoome didn't. But I don't think it really matters.

I honestly can't believe anyone is arguing Super Saiyans can get zenkais....there are 0 implied or noted zenkais (other than Cell) after Super Saiyan.
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NavonWise
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Because it was not stated, anywhere. What that is, is an idea, not a fact.
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Victorious
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Check how *****ed up Buuhan made Gohan, he gets healed next page gets 0 power increase.

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Because it was not stated, anywhere. What that is, is an idea, not a fact.


Yeah it was not stated, noted or implied.

Notice when Cell got a zenkai it's noted, stated, implied, etc. "I've powered up like son Gohan" "must have been my brush with death", etc.
Edited by Victorious, Nov 10 2011, 10:36 PM.
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