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| Who is the most powerful human? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 10 2011, 10:02 PM (5,674 Views) | |
| Kblo247 | Oct 18 2011, 02:44 AM Post #76 |
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I never said he didn't train. I just said there was nothing to show he trained and for how long to surpass Krillin who had a gap on him. I didn't know abou the exert so I admit I was wrong there. I however still say there is nothing to say Krillin wasn't still stronger. Personally I just like Krillin more and think he was stronger and withoutna doubt more important throughout much of DBZ, not DB. I mean I take Yamchas thought seriously since it was just that, a thought comparing himself and logically Tien to him in his head power wise, and him feeling that they were inferior. The timeto which he compared them is subjective as it could be argued that it was when the cell jrs curb stomped them all or he had sensed all their strengths since then and compared them. I also do think Krillin hypothetically training with 18 before she gets pregnant and they have a family is a possibility and would give him more of a cushion on Tien no matter how hard he trained with the clown who was by far the guy with the least potential for power gains in Z if you think about how much stronger Yajirobe would have been in comparison if he cared. The fact Krillin also felt he could place in battle with 18, Piccolo, and the saiyans as long as they didn't transform and had no idea Goten and Trunks would be grouped in a kids tourney was telling about where he felt he was IMO. Edited by Kblo247, Oct 18 2011, 02:54 AM.
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| Mihawk | Oct 18 2011, 02:54 AM Post #77 |
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I feel as if it's more of toriyama telling his fans that krillin is the strongest human in Z, period. |
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| Kblo247 | Oct 18 2011, 02:59 AM Post #78 |
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I have no problem calling him fodder for Tien in DB, but I also know that Krilling did far more in the DBZ universe so to speak than Tien, Yamcha, and the clown combined. |
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Oct 18 2011, 04:04 AM Post #79 |
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Badabing!
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There is really nothing to suggest Krillin was stronger than Tenshinhan to begin with. Goku picks Tenshinhan over Krillin in their 1st confrontation with the Androids and then later on Tenshinhan is chosen over Krillin by Piccolo to chase Cell.
There is nothing to suggest Krillin sparred with 18. Besides Gohan sparred with SSjin Goku and Piccolo yet he is still suggested to be weaker than both Tenshinhan and Krillin. In the Android arc I have; Tenshinhan>Krillin>Gohan>base Goku, Vegeta,Trunks>Yamcha.
He never thought he could fight with them lol. Also this is his reaction to finding out the Kids weren't allowed to fight with the grown ups; Kuririn: “Phew!” |
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| Kblo247 | Oct 18 2011, 04:25 AM Post #80 |
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Goku always tired to protect Gohan and Krillin. He tried to put them on the sidelines versus the saiyans where they had him return to save him. He did it with the Ginyus when he sent them away and trusted Vegeta. He did it with Frieza and heat they still had to help him. He did it with the androiids. I think he just looked out for his son and best friend up to the cell games where his and Gohans fpssj states got to his head a nd Piccolo had to give him a reality check. I also don't see how you have Gohan that low. He was coming off of Namek as the 4th strongest z fighter easily thanks to Guru and zenkais. He put in three 3 years with the strongest and 3rd strongest fighter on the planet. I have no problem having Krillin close to him since those two were relatively close until Gohan raged out and got his first major zenkai, and I have no problem with Tien being in that realm. I just don't think Gohan is that weak, as much as they wish to protect him which was the common theme that was played up to help him transform. And he obviously would have his mind on his dad who basically had a heart attack. He was always strong but too weak or scared and one of Goku, Piccolo, Vegeta, or Krillin always saved him. I personally have Piccolo > base Goku w/o kaioken and healthy = base Vegeta > Gohan > Krillin > slightly percentage wise than Tien > Trunks > Yamcha by a solid margin and blows Chiaotzu out the water in that arc. Edited by Kblo247, Oct 18 2011, 04:26 AM.
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| Mr. Blonde | Oct 18 2011, 12:11 PM Post #81 |
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Any particular reason? I'm not being a fanhater, just curious. |
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Oct 18 2011, 01:15 PM Post #82 |
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Badabing!
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Excuses like this don't work. He says to ChiChi before the 3 year timeskip; Chapter: 336 (DBZ 142), P12.3 Context: convincing Chi Chi to let Gohan train Goku: “I told you, didn’t I? We’ll definitely need Gohan’s power…” So we know he definitely intended on having Gohan fight and thus would have no reason to send Krillin away from the fight if he intended on having his own son fight them. Besides I'm pretty sure it was Piccolo who told Gohan to ***** off and carry Bulma and Yajirobe away. He says something along the lines of 'if all we're doing is destroying the Androids we should be enough'. So I definitely believe Gohan is the weakest out of himself, Tenshinhan and Krillin.
You do realize Gohan potentially missed out on almost 2 years training after Namek right? While he was most likely studying, Tenshinhan was getting stronger during his 250-60 days training on Kaio's and him and Krillin were training for another 1/2 years.
Piccolo was put in the same league as the SSjins, Piccolo said Vegeta>Goku and no power decrease was noted while he was still in base, if Gohan was still going to be weaker than the base Saiyans then I wouldn't think Gohan would be considered a valuable asset by Goku and by your logic Gohan should be >>>Krillin since he had 'superior' training to Krillin. |
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| Kruegs Outlandish | Oct 18 2011, 01:34 PM Post #83 |
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I just lifted 1000 lbs like it was nothing. I am the strongest human! Roar. |
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| Mr. Blonde | Oct 18 2011, 02:06 PM Post #84 |
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1) Piccolo told Gohan to take them back to his house. If he wanted to send them back to Kame house he would've sent them with Krillin, and if he wanted them to go to Tenshinhan's he would've sent them with Tenshinhan. Strength was never mentioned or implied. Plus, he'd already proved himself #20's superior, and Vegeta and Trunks (who were stronger than he was) were there as well. Three Z-Fighters, three Androids. Krillin, Tenshinhan and Gohan were just support by that point. 2) Gohan was strong enough by his final Zenkai on Namek that Vegeta was confident about him joining the fight against 2nd form Freeza, and he was able to put a dent in 3rd form Freeza. Tenshinhan wasn't even twice as strong as a Saibaman by the time he got to King Kai's. That's a pretty big gap to fill in peace time without plot devices or relevance. There was never the slightest implication that Tenshinhan had gotten much stronger, thus there's no reason to assume he'd made a particularly massive leap. 3) Goku had no idea how strong the Androids would be, and since Future Piccolo never trained with Goku and Future Vegeta was never stated as being a Super Saiyan, one can assume they were nothing special. Plus, Goku knew about Gohan's rage boost, which is always plot related - after all, he was able to send #20 flying. I'd say Gohan is a whisker behind base Trunks, since Goku knew he'd be a great use as soon as he turned Super Saiyan in the Room of Spirit and Time. He'd definitely have a mile on Krillin - not only was he far stronger by the end of their time on Namek, he'd been training with Goku and Piccolo, whereas Krillin was training with Roshi. |
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Oct 18 2011, 02:48 PM Post #85 |
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Badabing!
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By that time Trunks had told them about 17 and 18 so naturally he would want to most capable fighters with him if the ***** hit the pan. Piccolo was suggested to have made massive gains in just 1 week at Kaio's and Tenshinhan, who was Piccolo's near equal in the Saiyan battle, spent 250-60 days at Kaio's. He could have easily surpassed Gohan's level of power in that time. There was never the slightest implication that any of the Earthlings powered up in the 3 year timeskip but does that make it not true? What does Tenshinhan do? Train. What does training do? Make you stronger. What was Gohan doing? Studying. What does studying not do? Make you stronger.
Gohan got a surprise hit on 20 in the same way SSjin Trunks got a surprise hit on Majin Buu. Gohan was nothing special. I guess you missed out the fact that Gohan had not trained for 2 years after Namek while Tenshinhan and presumably Krillin were training. Krillin and Tenshinhan could have surpassed Gohan easily. Edited by Cocoman, Oct 18 2011, 02:48 PM.
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| Kblo247 | Oct 18 2011, 09:46 PM Post #86 |
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I just don't see Trunks as being special outside of being able to transform. He was heavily flawed as a fighter because he didn't have the ability to gain knowledge from anyone but Gohan, who Goku hadn't even put through the paces like in the timeline he came back to. Trunks really understood raw power and he had it as well since he went SSJ, but if you go by the logic that Gohan of his time wasn't as strong as Yardrat or Namek Goku (not really sure which Future Gohan was speaking of), then the level Trunks was at as a SSJ and base saiyan had to be persumably low in comparison since he and Bulma said he was around Gohans strength when the androids killed him, before he went into his last battle with thm before time traveling. I have a hard time seeing him as being stronger or even more skilled in his base form pre ROSAT w/ Vegeta to observe for a year, than most of the z fighters besides Yamcha. He really missed out on proper teaching and instruction because that Gohan missed out on a lot and was weak in comparison to Goku, the Z fighters, and cyborgs in the present timeline. I just have Tien as well as Gohan. Krillin, Piccolo, and Vegeta/Goku knowing how to train, make evaluations, and out right fight better. Trunks just had the SSJ card to play and much like the kid version of himself and Goten, who I think we're also far stronger and far better actual fighters as toddlers than he was in the Trunks and Android arc. Just my personal opinion because nothing he did to me was overly impressive as a warrior. Sure he was an impressive brute, but nowhere close to a warrior in his timeline or in the present early on besides purely over powering Frieza and King Cold, who had no strategy or put up any real fight at all against him. He blasted, powered up, and sliced sure, but he had no extensive knowledge about the z warriors (sure he knew personality tidbits and Goku glory stories), their history (him not even knowing what budokai was), and even that he could pass a SSJ (which he kinda accomplished but ended up botching in the end because all he knew and thought about was getting raw power). |
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| Kblo247 | Oct 18 2011, 10:13 PM Post #87 |
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I put Gohan as greater or at wore equal to Krillin because I think the gap was somewhat closed thanks to Chi Chi turning him into a book worm after leaving Namek. I personally believe Gohan had a gap on Krillin and Tien after Friezas defeat on Namek I believe Krillin kept training while Gohan studied and closd some of that gap so as to make sure that he would have a better chance to not have to repeat the same fate again. I believe Tien got more out of his training with King Kai after the Frieza battle with Yamcha there and then got a little more but not the same gains wise until he wished back since his sparring partner in Chiaotzu still had far less potential than the others in every arc despite similar training. I do think he trained some more on earth until Frieza arrived and that he and Krillin were much closer to Gohans normal power, not his enraged ocean of a power that he had when pissed. After the training for 3 years I think they all progressed differently method wise but still progressed . I see Gohan making gains, but not enough to be stronger than base Goku or Vegeta because he kinda had both his dads there and their two styles. Piccolo pushed him naturally, whereas Goku would coddle and be soft at times and hold back which while making him stronger hurts his full potential from being reached. Vegeta was a mad man in his preparation and the stronger of the ssjs, but I have a hard time thinking that Goku who was mildly straining to fly in his base state to another location for the fight had his full power supply. Goku when healthy was sure he couldn't beat the androids if Vegeta couldn't so I always took that as Vegeta being stronger like Piccolo said or about equal in Gokus mind when he was healthy. Now back to Tien and Krillin, I think both progressed a great deal and took their training far more serious than Yamcha (who to be fair was mistaken for Gokus projected base level by Gero whatever that was). They both retreated to their individual comfort zone of Chiaotzu and Roshi who were their respective training partner and master for life more or less. Both men likely gained and were set on being prepared for battle to the point they thought they could help and weren't scared by the whole hand through the stomach thing. I just don't have them as strong as Gohan. Krillin to me could be more or less his equal since he was basically portrayed that way for a large portion of Z in the manga and even anime filler, and I have Tien a percentage away from that level Krillin was at because there is never any point that really says when Krillins power stopped growing from Guru on Namek (unless if you want to say when he died) because of it being miniscule in comparison to Neil joining with Piccolo, Gohans rage, and the zenkais The saiyans got. All that said, I still think they are more competent than base Trunks whose SSJ form I personally have below Piccolo versus the androids Edited by Kblo247, Oct 18 2011, 10:27 PM.
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| + Pyrus | Oct 18 2011, 10:25 PM Post #88 |
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But...why? Trunks was grouped in with Goku and Vegeta by Kami when describing their strength. Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P3.1 God: “Things turned out this way against the androids…Even for that ‘Trunks’ boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father…and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks…Even when Son Goku’s illness is healed, the outcome will probably be the same…” Piccolo also appears to regard Trunks as his superior. Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.2 Context: after Kuririn apologies for not joining the fight with No.17 and No.18 Piccolo: “Don’t worry about it. Even Trunks as a Super Saiyan was done in with more or less one blow. It wouldn’t have made any difference if you had come.” And then Tenshinhan states that Goku and Vegeta shouldn't be much different from Trunks. Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4 Tenshinhan: “Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…He definitely can’t win…! No even Goku…” Everything points to the Saiyans (barring Gohan) being Tier 1, Piccolo being Tier 2, and everybody else being fodder pretty much. |
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| Kblo247 | Oct 18 2011, 10:38 PM Post #89 |
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Tien says that but trunks was inferior to Futurue Gohan who was inferior to that futures Goku post Yardrat training, despite being at war with the androids for almost a decade. Goku swatted away anything he threw at him when they met with a finger and had only gotten stronger (Vegeta started behind Trunks and bypassed him as well despite Trunks theoretically having time to possibly get in more battles with the androids of his time) which is why Trunks kept on trying to get them to all wait for Goku to get healthy. Vegeta also declared Trunks after using what was the biggest display of his what should be increased ssj power we see at the time, as being a weakling when they first meet 17/18 and he destroys the lab, while never doing the same to Piccolo. I think that shows a gap between where Vegeta and Goku were in comparison to where Piccolo and Trunks best at the time was. As for the Krillin comment, I still think Piccolo was making him feel better. And as a SSJ Trunks would inevitably be on a tier that was above the humans and base saiyans if you believe the 50x multiplier. Him getting swatted away in that form was just an example of telling Krillin anything he did couldn't have helped in that scenario balance the scales in their favor. And you have to remember that the androids of that timeline were stronger than what Trunks was expecting and had warned them about so they were pretty much screwed even if Goku and Gohan both would have magically intervened, let alone Krillin. Edited by Kblo247, Oct 18 2011, 10:43 PM.
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| + Pyrus | Oct 18 2011, 11:04 PM Post #90 |
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Trunks wasn't inferior to Future Gohan. He was a little stronger, and then the quotes I posted point to him getting even stronger when everybody was training for the androids. When Goku blocked all of Trunks' hits, he said Trunks wasn't giving it his all either, so that's really not conclusive proof that Goku was leagues ahead of Trunks. Goku had virtually no time to train on Yardrat by his own admission anyway.
Chapter: 350 (DBZ 156), P14.1 Context: after Trunks blasts the androids and it doesn’t faze them Vegeta: “Looks like that level [of attack] is just a waste of energy.” You mean that line? There's no comparison to Piccolo because Piccolo didn't do anything. Vegeta jumped the gun and blew the doors down.
It still doesn't negate Trunks being stronger than Piccolo. There's nothing that does. Piccolo may have progressed to a level above even Freeza, but Trunks was beyond that level to start with, and then got even stronger. Tenshinhan basically states that Goku and Vegeta aren't much different than Trunks, just like Future Bulma states that Trunks isn't much different than Future Gohan. Chapter: TTS, P14.4, P15.1-2 Trunks: “…I think I’m strong enough to beat the Androids now. We don’t have to go study them in the past!” Future Bulma: “You’re too naïve. It’s true that you’ve gotten astoundingly strong, but have you forgotten how Gohan was killed 3 years ago? I don’t think you’re that amazingly different than Gohan back then…” Trunks: “Mother, quite frankly this time I’ve got confidence [I can defeat them]! Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4 Tenshinhan: “Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…He definitely can’t win…! Not even Goku…” It's pretty clear that before the Room of Spirit and Time, the three Super Saiyans were all around the same level of power, with Trunks obviously being the weakest. Two different people state as much. Edited by Pyrus, Oct 18 2011, 11:04 PM.
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