• potara >> dance
• 'rival boost' is simply the gain of having the knowledge and skill of the person whose put forth an effort in being better than you, and not a random power up.

bizness86

Sep 26 2011, 02:25 PM

imo,

• potara >> dance
• 'rival boost' is simply the gain of having the knowledge and skill of the person whose put forth an effort in being better than you, and not a random power up.

otherwise, Z (SSJ) Vegito would not have been much stronger than Z (SSJ) Gotenks, and would certainly not have been able to fight Buu like he did...

Even still Gogeta is significantly stronger in GT than in Z. [shrugs].
Note that I did say Buu would "buy time"; this could be a few minutes or a few seconds.

lunar2

Sep 26 2011, 02:10 PM

he doesn't magically get stronger.

lunar2

Sep 26 2011, 02:37 PM

except, of course, that old kai specifically stated this:


Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

he says strongest. not most skilled, not smartest, but strongest. there is an actual tangible power boost when rivals fuse.

the potara is more powerful than the dance, yes. but the rival boost is a real power boost that did make vegeto significantly stronger than he would have been otherwise.

lunar2

Sep 26 2011, 01:48 PM

Saberoph

Sep 26 2011, 07:36 AM

All I gotta say is...nothing the Tayoken can't take care of. Speed problem solved, Goku can now either do the Dance with Vegeta, or if they know of the unlimited Fusion time then they can go get the Potara.

ssj4 goku proved over the course of 2 episodes that fighting blind is no disadvantage to him.

taiyoken is useless against gogeta.

@ bizness. yes, z vegito is there. but he's nowhere near powerful enough to touch base gogeta, even as an ssj3. if buu absorbed every single character in the DB universe, besides gogeta, he MIGHT make it up to ssj2 gogeta, but no higher than that. and that's with my small multipliers. with the SEG multipliers, buu's just screwed against anything over base.

Quote:

 

@ saberoph. goku has stated that he doesn't need to see to fight effectively. he said it against yakon. he said it against ise shenron. being blind does not affect goku, and therefore won't affect gogeta. the taiyoken only works against opponents who depend on their sight, and goku doesn't.

lunar2

Sep 26 2011, 03:34 PM

ok, you believe that. "two rival have joined together. that's definitely strongest." not "two rivals have gotten so strong because they are rivals, and then fused to make a really powerful guy."

the fact is, neither would be significantly weaker if they weren't rivals. goku would have undergone the exact same training, with the exact same results, because he never did any training specifically to surpass vegeta, except on the way to namek, when vegeta was an enemy, not a rival. vegeta wouldn't have trained in as high gravity, which only gives marginal benefits once you're accustomed to the gravity anyway, but otherwise would have done more or less the same thing. in fact, if it wasn't for his obsession with goku, he wouldn't have temporarily retired after the cell games, because he wouldn't have cared that both gohan and goku surpassed him, so he might have been even slightly stronger if he cared less. so no, the rival boost is not referring to the improvements they made because they were rivals, since they had only marginal, if any improvements because they were rivals. it's referring to something about 2 rivals fusing just like it flat out states.

"two rivals have joined together. that's definitely strongest."

@ saberoph. goku has stated that he doesn't need to see to fight effectively. he said it against yakon. he said it against ise shenron. being blind does not affect goku, and therefore won't affect gogeta. the taiyoken only works against opponents who depend on their sight, and goku doesn't.

bizness86

Sep 26 2011, 03:49 PM

lunar2

Sep 26 2011, 03:34 PM

ok, you believe that. "two rival have joined together. that's definitely strongest." not "two rivals have gotten so strong because they are rivals, and then fused to make a really powerful guy."

the fact is, neither would be significantly weaker if they weren't rivals. goku would have undergone the exact same training, with the exact same results, because he never did any training specifically to surpass vegeta, except on the way to namek, when vegeta was an enemy, not a rival. vegeta wouldn't have trained in as high gravity, which only gives marginal benefits once you're accustomed to the gravity anyway, but otherwise would have done more or less the same thing. in fact, if it wasn't for his obsession with goku, he wouldn't have temporarily retired after the cell games, because he wouldn't have cared that both gohan and goku surpassed him, so he might have been even slightly stronger if he cared less. so no, the rival boost is not referring to the improvements they made because they were rivals, since they had only marginal, if any improvements because they were rivals. it's referring to something about 2 rivals fusing just like it flat out states.

"two rivals have joined together. that's definitely strongest."

@ saberoph. goku has stated that he doesn't need to see to fight effectively. he said it against yakon. he said it against ise shenron. being blind does not affect goku, and therefore won't affect gogeta. the taiyoken only works against opponents who depend on their sight, and goku doesn't.

But if that's the case, would either of them even have been SSJ? Vegeta was a rival by the end of the Saiyan Saga; Goku considered him so at least. Goku's entire gravity training session was based on how much stronger he could get than Vegeta.

Goku arrived on Namek, and after watching Goku dispatch the Ginyus, Vegeta was actually convinced to entertain the fact that the presence of a Super Saiyan was feasible...

Goku has become SSJ, and Vegeta has not. Vegeta pushed to become much stronger than Goku and does in time for the androids. And evidently, if not for Goku surviving his heart disease, Vegeta and everyone else dies here...

Goku goes to Vegeta to get him to go into RoSaT and surpass SSJ; this is pretty much a challenge to see who gets stronger. Goku wins with Gohan.

Vegeta trains to catch Goku and Gohan. This is where we are at now. Kai calls Kibit Kai an idiot because Goku and Vegeta are 2 of the 3 strongest in the world, and that they've joined. He says that first in correcting Kibit Kai. Then he merely adds ("What's more") that the two were rivals. Afterwords, he readdresses his first statement, by saying that it was strong that 2 of the 3 masters have merged