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The Buu Saga
Topic Started: Sep 22 2011, 06:27 PM (4,155 Views)
NEkaio
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I want to like the Buu saga, I do, but I couldn't help but feel somewhat disappointed watching it. I actually like the idea of the series continuing later. It's the answered "What if". But some of the plot devices just felt a bit contrived or unconnected to prior events, such as the timing of Babidi's arrival and Vegeta's turning Majin just to equal Goku (surely he'd be too proud?)

The fights were good, but I feel like more could have been done to express the power and speed the characters should have been capable of. Yes, I know Vegetto is unbelievably strong and fast, but i want to feel it. I freely admit I'm hazy on this series so maybe I'm not remembering some baddass scenes, in which case remind me.

Overall I was sad to see it all end, but I was still wishing it'd been a little bit more...

Oh, and Gotenks annoyed the hell out of me, eventually.

Those are my initial thoughts anyway. ;)
Edited by NEkaio, Sep 28 2011, 06:16 PM.
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dbret12
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The Buu Saga was actually pretty good. Even with fat Buu asking if the girl thinks he's sexy. Also liked the scene with the blind kid and Mr. Satan.
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songohanfrancais
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Scholar

What I disliked about the Buu arc besides the Goku coming back to life thing, I feel like it swiftly took away a lot of the subtlety that Dragon Ball stood for
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lunar2
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NEkaio
Sep 28 2011, 06:13 PM
I want to like the Buu saga, I do, but I couldn't help but feel somewhat disappointed watching it. I actually like the idea of the series continuing later. It's the answered "What if". But some of the plot devices just felt a bit contrived or unconnected to prior events, such as the timing of Babidi's arrival and Vegeta's turning Majin just to equal Goku (surely he'd be too proud?)

The fights were good, but I feel like more could have been done to express the power and speed the characters should have been capable of. Yes, I know Vegetto is unbelievably strong and fast, but i want to feel it. I freely admit I'm hazy on this series so maybe I'm not remembering some baddass scenes, in which case remind me.

Overall I was sad to see it all end, but I was still wishing it'd been a little bit more...

Oh, and Gotenks annoyed the hell out of me, eventually.

Those are my initial thoughts anyway. ;)
i don't remember vegeto having any speed feats.

that was ssj pre rosat gotenks, who flew around the planet 5 times in 3 minutes or less, the highest speed demonstrated in all dragonball. granted, he was outside the atmosphere, and didn't have to deal with factors such as wind resistance or friction, but still, that was damn fast.

vegeto didn't have any ki feats.

that was cell games gohan, who created the most powerful kamehameha ever actually used. that was one of only 2 kamehameha's (the other was cell's) that had enough ki charged to destroy the entire solar system.

vegeto didn't have any strength feats. that would be gohan, again.

base goku was shown to barely be able to hold 40 tons in the air. he couldn't actually move it any. he then held the z sword in one hand completely steady, but struggled moving it. that shows us that the z sword weighs close to, but not quite, 10 tons. gohan, after just 2 days of training with the sword, was able to not only hold and move it, but even throw and catch it with one hand with only moderate effort. gohan's strength feat is unmatched.

vegeto didn't even have the best weird power feat. that would be gotenks and super buu, who yelled loud enough to break down the barriers between dimensions.

vegeto did have the best comedy feat, by fighting as a piece of candy.

but, you're right. the most powerful character in dragonball really sucks in the feats department. he really didn't DO anything.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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NEkaio
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lunar2
Sep 29 2011, 05:41 AM
i don't remember vegeto having any speed feats.

that was ssj pre rosat gotenks, who flew around the planet 5 times in 3 minutes or less, the highest speed demonstrated in all dragonball. granted, he was outside the atmosphere, and didn't have to deal with factors such as wind resistance or friction, but still, that was damn fast.

vegeto didn't have any ki feats.

that was cell games gohan, who created the most powerful kamehameha ever actually used. that was one of only 2 kamehameha's (the other was cell's) that had enough ki charged to destroy the entire solar system.

vegeto didn't have any strength feats. that would be gohan, again.

base goku was shown to barely be able to hold 40 tons in the air. he couldn't actually move it any. he then held the z sword in one hand completely steady, but struggled moving it. that shows us that the z sword weighs close to, but not quite, 10 tons. gohan, after just 2 days of training with the sword, was able to not only hold and move it, but even throw and catch it with one hand with only moderate effort. gohan's strength feat is unmatched.

vegeto didn't even have the best weird power feat. that would be gotenks and super buu, who yelled loud enough to break down the barriers between dimensions.

vegeto did have the best comedy feat, by fighting as a piece of candy.

but, you're right. the most powerful character in dragonball really sucks in the feats department. he really didn't DO anything.
Haha, I appreciate your detailing of those feats but I think we're arguing the same point. I never claimed Vegetto had any feats, in fact I was in part lamenting that he didn't.

But when you say feats, you mean "demonstrated the highest ability known," right? So yes, Gotenks may have shown himself actually moving the fastest in the show, and Gohan* may have shown the greatest display of strength, but by reference alone, Vegetto must be stronger and faster than both of them. (His ki is greater, and generally a higher ki means faster and stronger.)

Vegetto never lifted the heaviest object or clocked in the greatest measured speed, but he toyed with Buuhan, who combined Buu AND Gohan's strength! (A full-strength attack from Vegetto should be the strongest in the series, as should he be the fastest.) Not trying to get overly technical, but this is part of the reason I felt a little let down.

At that power and those speeds, in the anime, I wanted them to really push the envelope. Like a careless shot from Buu destroying a country's worth of land or Vegetto bunting a massive attack from Buu and slapping him lengthwise through an entire mountain range. Something just crazy and not done before that makes you go "Sugoi...what incredible guys!"

So my gripe is partly with the animators and partly how the battle played out. But I haven't fully read this part of the manga so it could just be the show. I'm not saying I didn't like it. I'm nitpicky because I care :=]:

*How do you figure the Z sword weighed 10 tons? Is that just an estimate? And do you suggest that pre-ultimate base Gohan was stronger than base Goku at that time? Goku could turn SSJ3 while Gohan couldn't. Just seems weird that pre-ultimate Gohan is stronger than Goku but only in non-SSJ form. Then again, he did wield the sword....
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Optimus Banana
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To your last point he said how he figured how much it weights. Goku was training in other world and for a bet, he was to raise his weights to 10 tons a limb. Goku Gould hold them in base but barely move. The same with the sword. So it can only be assumed they weigh about the same. And Gohan's base was raised to above 60% SSJ Goku. This is because they were actually going to have Gohan fight fight fat buu who was weaker than SSJ3 Goku. So Gohan is stronger in every form and if he had SSJ3 he would be stronger too.
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+ Pyrus
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To point something out, the SEG says Goku had a hard time in Base because he was trying to fly while lifting the weights.
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DrunkenWolf
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I think the biggest problem with Buu saga, and GT for that matter, was that everyone became a living god, power wise.

They had to keep creating tougher and tougher enemies and the protagonists had to become just as strong, eventually that formula created a cage for Akira Toriyama to live in and he couldn't get out because he couldn't have too many living gods and most of the lovable character that made DB and DBZ what it was, got pushed to the side and focused mainly on Goku and Vegeta.

Note: I think it was all down hill from Frieza Saga because it bound itself to the simple formula of z fighters + vegeta + piccilo fight bad guy and get wrecked until Goku can show up and save the day. No one is allowed to win a fight except Goku with minor deviations.
Edited by DrunkenWolf, Sep 30 2011, 03:37 AM.
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lunar2
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NEkaio
Sep 30 2011, 01:43 AM
lunar2
Sep 29 2011, 05:41 AM
i don't remember vegeto having any speed feats.

that was ssj pre rosat gotenks, who flew around the planet 5 times in 3 minutes or less, the highest speed demonstrated in all dragonball. granted, he was outside the atmosphere, and didn't have to deal with factors such as wind resistance or friction, but still, that was damn fast.

vegeto didn't have any ki feats.

that was cell games gohan, who created the most powerful kamehameha ever actually used. that was one of only 2 kamehameha's (the other was cell's) that had enough ki charged to destroy the entire solar system.

vegeto didn't have any strength feats. that would be gohan, again.

base goku was shown to barely be able to hold 40 tons in the air. he couldn't actually move it any. he then held the z sword in one hand completely steady, but struggled moving it. that shows us that the z sword weighs close to, but not quite, 10 tons. gohan, after just 2 days of training with the sword, was able to not only hold and move it, but even throw and catch it with one hand with only moderate effort. gohan's strength feat is unmatched.

vegeto didn't even have the best weird power feat. that would be gotenks and super buu, who yelled loud enough to break down the barriers between dimensions.

vegeto did have the best comedy feat, by fighting as a piece of candy.

but, you're right. the most powerful character in dragonball really sucks in the feats department. he really didn't DO anything.
Haha, I appreciate your detailing of those feats but I think we're arguing the same point. I never claimed Vegetto had any feats, in fact I was in part lamenting that he didn't.

But when you say feats, you mean "demonstrated the highest ability known," right? So yes, Gotenks may have shown himself actually moving the fastest in the show, and Gohan* may have shown the greatest display of strength, but by reference alone, Vegetto must be stronger and faster than both of them. (His ki is greater, and generally a higher ki means faster and stronger.)

Vegetto never lifted the heaviest object or clocked in the greatest measured speed, but he toyed with Buuhan, who combined Buu AND Gohan's strength! (A full-strength attack from Vegetto should be the strongest in the series, as should he be the fastest.) Not trying to get overly technical, but this is part of the reason I felt a little let down.

At that power and those speeds, in the anime, I wanted them to really push the envelope. Like a careless shot from Buu destroying a country's worth of land or Vegetto bunting a massive attack from Buu and slapping him lengthwise through an entire mountain range. Something just crazy and not done before that makes you go "Sugoi...what incredible guys!"

So my gripe is partly with the animators and partly how the battle played out. But I haven't fully read this part of the manga so it could just be the show. I'm not saying I didn't like it. I'm nitpicky because I care :=]:

*How do you figure the Z sword weighed 10 tons? Is that just an estimate? And do you suggest that pre-ultimate base Gohan was stronger than base Goku at that time? Goku could turn SSJ3 while Gohan couldn't. Just seems weird that pre-ultimate Gohan is stronger than Goku but only in non-SSJ form. Then again, he did wield the sword....
a feat is any extraordinary demonstration of ability. like i said, vegeto's only 2 feats were

1. fighting as a candy.

2. surviving an absorption, and maintaining consciousness.

i was actually agreeing with you, about how characters that were supposedly MUCH weaker did things that were quite a bit more impressive.

as for strength. physical strength that's unaltered by ki seems to cap out relatively low.

goku on the way to namek weighed ~7.5 tons in 100g. while training for the 25th budokai in the buu arc, he was shown training with 2 tons per limb, for a total of 8 tons. apparently, his base physical strength capped out on the way to namek.

physically, vegeto is just another saiyan, so he shouldn't be any stronger than goku, although he is many times as powerful. we don't know how strong buu is physically, so we can't say much about him, but by that point physical traits were nearly meaningless. even 7 and 8 year old kids whose bodies have barely been conditioned at all were able to fight alongside the adults who had perfected their bodies.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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ryanson209
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MAGICAL GIRLS REPRESENT

I think it's only less impressive because everything he's done, we've seen before. All the "feats" that are described are done early, and by the time of the Buu saga they aren't really feats anymore. To show one is more powerful, just have them do all those so-called feats without breaking a sweat.
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Life is a performance, and the world is full of critics. Give it your all like it's your last show.
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Ajith
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DrunkenWolf
Sep 30 2011, 03:35 AM
I think the biggest problem with Buu saga, and GT for that matter, was that everyone became a living god, power wise.

They had to keep creating tougher and tougher enemies and the protagonists had to become just as strong, eventually that formula created a cage for Akira Toriyama to live in and he couldn't get out because he couldn't have too many living gods and most of the lovable character that made DB and DBZ what it was, got pushed to the side and focused mainly on Goku and Vegeta.

Note: I think it was all down hill from Frieza Saga because it bound itself to the simple formula of z fighters + vegeta + piccilo fight bad guy and get wrecked until Goku can show up and save the day. No one is allowed to win a fight except Goku with minor deviations.
I see ur point, but u cant really say that... Sure, Tougher enemies arise, for they are the one's that made DBZ what it is..Frieza, Cell, Buu...each are unique in their own ways..like in a class of their own...Akira Toriyama didn't give everyone god-like figures, I dont see a SINGLE instance where they had to completly surrender to Goku or Vegeta or Gohan or hell...even Gotenks...As for Buu Saga, everyone got their shot at Buu. One more thing, Buu, especially, Super Buu is a remarkable villain..Honestly, his various stages like Buutenks & Buuhan were awesome, while his evil incarnate, Kid Buu, was just...epic.

I can't see any other shounen anime villains who are as incredible or awesome as the one's of DBZ.. They are completly...mark my word.."Completly" sterotypical...with lame excuses for being villains...Ex: villains of Naruto, Bleach, Yu Yu Hakusho etc...
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Ajith
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NEkaio
Sep 28 2011, 06:13 PM
I want to like the Buu saga, I do, but I couldn't help but feel somewhat disappointed watching it. I actually like the idea of the series continuing later. It's the answered "What if". But some of the plot devices just felt a bit contrived or unconnected to prior events, such as the timing of Babidi's arrival and Vegeta's turning Majin just to equal Goku (surely he'd be too proud?)

The fights were good, but I feel like more could have been done to express the power and speed the characters should have been capable of. Yes, I know Vegetto is unbelievably strong and fast, but i want to feel it. I freely admit I'm hazy on this series so maybe I'm not remembering some baddass scenes, in which case remind me.

Overall I was sad to see it all end, but I was still wishing it'd been a little bit more...

Oh, and Gotenks annoyed the hell out of me, eventually.

Those are my initial thoughts anyway. ;)
Dude, do one thing. Watch the Buu Saga again & you'll be amazed. I dont understand what you mean by "feel", but I can confidently tell you that Vegito had some impressive feats.. No joke.

I dont know who, but someone mentioned that a full-strength attack from Vegito to Buuhan should be one of the strongest in the universe, as well as the fastest..But, C'mon, that dude wasn't even TRYIN to use his power..or full-power shall I say.. Yes, he did transformed into Super Saiyan, but then, Vegito's fight with Buuhan is unique. As far as I can say, I read the manga, then compared to the anime, and its shows the same result, except few minor inconsistencies, that Vegito wasn't using his fullpower, or even bothered to use it against Buuhan..
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Destiny
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To the person saying Vegito had no feats lol. What do you call fighting as a ball? Or literally breaking through a power barer the size of a mountain?
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lunar2
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i did mention his comedic/weird feats. but c'mon. this guy is supposed to be several times as powerful as pre rosat ssj gotenks, but gotenks is THE fastest character in the series. post z sword gohan is the only untransformed character shown to be able to throw and catch a near 10 - ton weight with one hand. gohan at the cell games created THE most powerful ki attack in the series during his beam struggle with cell. no one besides gohan and cell ever made solar kamehamehas. but vegito's supposed to be a hundred times or more powerful than gohan was at the cell games.

vegito has no real feats. he floated around and fought a guy that was supposed to be stronger than another guy that was supposed to be stronger than someone else. that's not a feat, that's powerscaling. vegito didn't move the fastest, he didn't lift the most weight, he didn't create the most powerful ki attack, he didn't really DO anything but a standard fight. even cell and FRIEZA have better feats than vegito. frieza fired planet busters while suppressed in his lowest form, with minimal effort. frieza survived being cut in half, then blasted, and then the destruction of a planet.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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Destiny
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lunar2
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8368809&t=8317927
i did mention his comedic/weird feats. but c'mon. this guy is supposed to be several times as powerful as pre rosat ssj gotenks, but gotenks is THE fastest character in the series. post z sword gohan is the only untransformed character shown to be able to throw and catch a near 10 - ton weight with one hand. gohan at the cell games created THE most powerful ki attack in the series during his beam struggle with cell. no one besides gohan and cell ever made solar kamehamehas. but vegito's supposed to be a hundred times or more powerful than gohan was at the cell games.

vegito has no real feats. he floated around and fought a guy that was supposed to be stronger than another guy that was supposed to be stronger than someone else. that's not a feat, that's powerscaling. vegito didn't move the fastest, he didn't lift the most weight, he didn't create the most powerful ki attack, he didn't really DO anything but a standard fight. even cell and FRIEZA have better feats than vegito. frieza fired planet busters while suppressed in his lowest form, with minimal effort. frieza survived being cut in half, then blasted, and then the destruction of a planet.


Yeah but doesn't him being as powerful as he is mean he has all those qualities all weaker characters do? I'd assume it'd be a good assumption.
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