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Base Goku (Buu arc saga) VS Bio-Broly; Fight
Topic Started: Aug 7 2011, 07:49 PM (2,949 Views)
Paikuan extreme Aug 12 2011, 08:26 AM Post #46
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Kamikaze Pyro
Aug 12 2011, 03:34 AM
Ninjajp247
Aug 12 2011, 03:17 AM
yeah i never bought into the whole as a kid thing either, it just doesnt stand to reason that goten would become as strong as an unsupressed gohan from playing with trunks. Thats it. Otherwise goten is strong as hell, his savage ssj is stronger than namek saga goku at full power, and he cant even fly. Stronger than kid gohan before the mssj training. We already know the rosat training put his mssj at a low tier ssj2 level for their ssj3 fusion. The boy is strong, but at this time before the budokai he's not that strong, after training for the budokai he was able to kill 18, thats some dang good training you ask me. he went from stronger than goku to being able to kill 18. NO, gotens no slouch by any means.
He could have killed #18 before the tournament training or the RoSaT. He was born naturally powerful, much more powerful than even Freeza at birth, otherwise training with Chi-Chi is the most amazing strength boost ever seen from training with someone in the series.
Are you hinting at the possibility we have another naturally born super saiyan?
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+ Pyrus Aug 12 2011, 02:36 PM Post #47
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Ninjajp247
Aug 12 2011, 08:26 AM
Kamikaze Pyro
Aug 12 2011, 03:34 AM
Ninjajp247
Aug 12 2011, 03:17 AM
yeah i never bought into the whole as a kid thing either, it just doesnt stand to reason that goten would become as strong as an unsupressed gohan from playing with trunks. Thats it. Otherwise goten is strong as hell, his savage ssj is stronger than namek saga goku at full power, and he cant even fly. Stronger than kid gohan before the mssj training. We already know the rosat training put his mssj at a low tier ssj2 level for their ssj3 fusion. The boy is strong, but at this time before the budokai he's not that strong, after training for the budokai he was able to kill 18, thats some dang good training you ask me. he went from stronger than goku to being able to kill 18. NO, gotens no slouch by any means.
He could have killed #18 before the tournament training or the RoSaT. He was born naturally powerful, much more powerful than even Freeza at birth, otherwise training with Chi-Chi is the most amazing strength boost ever seen from training with someone in the series.
Are you hinting at the possibility we have another naturally born super saiyan?
Well, yeah. Trunks and Goten both achieved the form before they were even 7 years old, and they were both so accustomed to it that they used it during their play fights. My theory is that since their fathers were both Super Saiyans at conception, those "unlocked" genes passed down to Trunks and Goten, thus the boys sort of just "had" the form come very easily to them.
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+ Clearin Aug 12 2011, 02:38 PM Post #48
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 Heck they were even MSSj when they were 7 which doesn't make much sense imo, I suppose Goten can be attributed to he was conceived while Goku was MSSj but it doesn't make sense for Trunks. Even if you just have to spend as much time in the form and not train to get it like Goku and Gohan, Trunks can't possibly have spent more time in the form than Goku did before finally mastering it could he? Or more than Future Trunks and Gohan had ever spent in the form...
Edited by Clearin, Aug 12 2011, 02:39 PM.
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+ Pyrus Aug 12 2011, 02:45 PM Post #49
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 We don't know how long it takes to actually successfully master the form. By the time Goku and Gohan came out, they'd already mastered it and were just resting in the form (see: showing off, lol). If the kids used it in their play fights all the time, I'd reckon it'd be enough time to master it.

Also, I didn't know you thought the kids were Mastered Super Saiyans, Teen. I thought you were on the opposing side when myself and others had this debate a while ago?
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+ Clearin Aug 12 2011, 02:51 PM Post #50
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 Well the eyes are pretty much the one thing that make me think it.
I don't see any evidence that regular SSj's can't power up/down at will
And aura changes obviously as proven with Future Trunks
But the eyes...I can't find an explanation for the eyes...
Future Trunks was a SSj for at least 3 years before even he went to the future the first time yet he somehow had failed managed to do in 3+ years what Gohan could do in less than a year. I just can't see Trunks using it less than Gohan did, which is why I believe you have to master it by staying in it for a certain amount of time. Why Trunks and Goten have it, I have no idea.
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Wintergreen5000 Aug 12 2011, 04:05 PM Post #51
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WCZE
Ninjajp247
Aug 11 2011, 05:31 PM
You have claim to given me proof i dont acdept, what was that exactly, a pretty speech? no way have you proven goten is stronger. No way you can.

KP: really goten is the only going all out and hes not trying to hurt his brothers feelings? he even admitted gohan was better, i dont know what advantage you claim goten has, but going toe to toe with a suppressed gohan while ssj isnt very impressive to me. Gohan powered up to fight only cause he realized goten was stronger than he perceived, if gohan wasnt suppressed then why admit it? why would goten admit it? a suppressed rusty gohan is acquiesced to by his brother who thought he had caught up and proven HIMSELF wrong, yet just throw out what he says in support of your argument? still not feeling this here guys.
You are in denial then. The proof is right in the manga. You are just choosing to dismiss it. You want to believe that Gohan was holding back just because he's fighting his little brother, but as was said, there are NO statements... let me re-emphasize that for you in case you missed it... NO statements by anybody that Gohan held back.

And yes, one panel is all one may need to establish a fact, as long as it is not contradicted, which, in this case, it never is, except in Movie 10, where you have base Gohan dueling SSjin Broly, thus performing to do better than SSjin Goten, which is an obvious mistake.
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+ Clearin Aug 12 2011, 04:07 PM Post #52
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ILLusioNaire
Aug 12 2011, 04:05 PM
And yes, one panel is all one may need to establish a fact, as long as it is not contradicted, which, in this case, it never is, except in Movie 10, where you have base Gohan dueling SSjin Broly, thus performing to do better than SSjin Goten, which is an obvious mistake.
There's not much to contradict. Gohan and Goten were training, you can't contradict that which was shown to us in that 1 panel..and that's all that was shown to us.
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Wintergreen5000 Aug 12 2011, 04:17 PM Post #53
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WCZE

 What? I'm not suggesting anything is contradicted, at least in this case here. Gohan and Goten are shown to be training, BUT, that doesn't mean that either of the two are holding back, and nothing is stated about them holding back.

Initially, around the time when Gohan first sparred with Goten, Gohan turned Super Saiyan to train, presumably full power. After Goten transformed himself, Gohan then suggested they spar together. Point is, Gohan didn't have to power down to fight his little brother. So, when we see them fighting in that one panel later on, fiercely I might add, it only makes sense that they are around the same level of power.

But I really don't know exactly what it is you're trying to get at.
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+ Clearin Aug 12 2011, 04:19 PM Post #54
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ILLusioNaire
Aug 12 2011, 04:17 PM
What? I'm not suggesting anything is contradicted, at least in this case here. Gohan and Goten are shown to be training, BUT, that doesn't mean that either of the two are holding back, and nothing is stated about them holding back.

Initially, around the time when Gohan first sparred with Goten, Gohan turned Super Saiyan to train, presumably full power. After Goten transformed himself, Gohan then suggested they spar together. Point is, Gohan didn't have to power down to fight his little brother. So, when we see them fighting in that one panel later on, fiercely I might add, it only makes sense that they are around the same level of power.

But I really don't know exactly what it is you're trying to get at.
Well in the first case Gohan probably wasn't fully powered up since he never planned to spar in the first place, not only that but Goten admits Gohan is stronger afterwards.

Now as for the 2nd spar, the 1 panel one...
Gohan would be sweating either way and showing effort, it's not like suppressing your power doesn't make you work (See also: Goku vs Cell)
We'd also have to take into account the amount of time they've been going at it, or if Goten was there from the start etc
But if you really want to use that picture so badly. I counted the sweat marks for each of them. Goten has 16, Gohan has 10 (For both of them I circled 2 sweat marks in 1 circle). That must mean Gohan is 60% stronger than Goten, right?
I decided to flip the image for my own convinence

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Edited by Clearin, Aug 12 2011, 04:21 PM.
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Nusu Aug 12 2011, 04:23 PM Post #55
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Piccolo Daimao > Piccolo Jr.

Wait, since when are sweat marks a indicator for power? I mean they often just a indicator for:

A) Exhaustion.

B) Stress.

or

C) Fear.
Once upon a time, there used to be a signature. Then it got lame, and now I'm out of options for a new one.



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+ Clearin Aug 12 2011, 04:26 PM Post #56
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Nusu
Aug 12 2011, 04:23 PM
Wait, since when are sweat marks a indicator for power? I mean they often just a indicator for:

A) Exhaustion.

B) Stress.

or

C) Fear.
I'm not trying to use it for anything. I don't think that image can be used for any kind of proof of power, all it tells me is that Goten and Gohan sparred, but if other people want to use it as evidence (Without knowing anything about the image, as I've mentioned before, how long they've been going, if Goten was sparring from the start and Gohan started alone) I figured why not just look into the image even deeper.

Plus technically showing who's more exhausted kinda shows power, it shows who's putting more work in.
Edited by Clearin, Aug 12 2011, 04:28 PM.
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+ Pyrus Aug 12 2011, 04:28 PM Post #57
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 Right, Goten isn't as strong as Gohan, so he'd be putting more work in. Nobody's saying they're dead even.
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+ Clearin Aug 12 2011, 04:29 PM Post #58
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 Well in any case I do think movie 10 screwed up by having Base Gohan > SSj Kids, which is what the whole argument is about anyway.
Edited by Clearin, Aug 12 2011, 04:30 PM.
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Nusu Aug 12 2011, 04:37 PM Post #59
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Piccolo Daimao > Piccolo Jr.

Teen GohanZ
Aug 12 2011, 04:26 PM
Nusu
Aug 12 2011, 04:23 PM
Wait, since when are sweat marks a indicator for power? I mean they often just a indicator for:

A) Exhaustion.

B) Stress.

or

C) Fear.
I'm not trying to use it for anything. I don't think that image can be used for any kind of proof of power, all it tells me is that Goten and Gohan sparred, but if other people want to use it as evidence (Without knowing anything about the image, as I've mentioned before, how long they've been going, if Goten was sparring from the start and Gohan started alone) I figured why not just look into the image even deeper.

Plus technically showing who's more exhausted kinda shows power, it shows who's putting more work in.
Oh yes, that is true. Son Goten is unexperienced and only in the same power range as Son Gohan in my view. So, I guess it would be logical for him using more effort. I thought you'd use sweat as a power indicator.
Once upon a time, there used to be a signature. Then it got lame, and now I'm out of options for a new one.



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+ Pyrus Aug 12 2011, 04:38 PM Post #60
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Teen GohanZ
Aug 12 2011, 04:29 PM
Well in any case I do think movie 10 screwed up by having Base Gohan > SSj Kids, which is what the whole argument is about anyway.
That's what this whole thing was about? :lol: Wow.
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