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| Base Goku (Buu arc saga) VS Bio-Broly; Fight | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 7 2011, 07:49 PM (2,951 Views) | |
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Aug 10 2011, 04:35 PM Post #16 |
 
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yes i say that, because you guys seem convinced that gohan was going all out on goten in their training session when gohan found out goten sould turn ssj. So how did they match strength? everyone says they did but i didnt see it, what i saw, goten come at gohan with everything he's got, gohan blockS EVERYTHING THROWN!! didnt transform to fight him off. till he realized goten was serious. ssj goten can def beat gohan in base, but a fully concetrated gohan fully powered mssj? no proof whatsoever, except of course in movie 11. all the swaeting can go on and you can say gohan had a hard time with goten, but the only reason gohan was afraid they would catch up was the simple fact he was already feeling bad about not training and realized his brother had been out there putting in work, No way could goten match gohan on a strength for strength or ki output level. NO WAY.... |
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| + Clearin | Aug 10 2011, 04:42 PM Post #17 |
 
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I assume they mean near the end of the training since at the start of the training Goten himself admits that Gohan is better (And this is a rusty Gohan). Around the end of the training it's hard to say since we never see them start training meaning any signs of fatigue Gohan has could have come from hours of training. |
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| + Pyrus | Aug 10 2011, 04:48 PM Post #18 |
 
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Any signs of fatigue on Goten could be attributed to hours of training beforehand, too, then. |
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| Wintergreen5000 | Aug 10 2011, 04:49 PM Post #19 |
WCZE
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The fact that Gohan blocked all of Goten's attacks means nothing. It doesn't make him stronger at all. It just means that he's more skilled if anything. Plus, Gohan wasn't supposed to attack in that form of sparring, so all he has to worry about is defending, which just makes it harder for Goten to land an attack. What's more is, if you look at the fight in the manga, Gohan's face is pretty intense for fighting his supposed weak little brother. He was eventually forced, before the fight's conclusion, to ascend into the air, so he was definately being hard-pressed by Goten. Later on, in a single panel, we see them both fighting quite intensely and BOTH are sweating. Now, seeing Gohan's expression in both fights, and the amount of effort both were exerting, how can you still say that Goten is not close to his brother's strength? |
 
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| + Clearin | Aug 10 2011, 04:53 PM Post #20 |
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Yeah I assumed that went without saying 
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Aug 10 2011, 05:11 PM Post #21 |
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you are asking ME to compare their strength but im the one saying he doesnt have it, show me where gotens strength is PROVEN to be a match for gohans, training is different, fighting is different, if you want me to believe goten could take on and take out his brother because they have the same strength level then you have to show me. In no instance was it noted that goten was as strong as gohan, and why should he be? If anything goten would be at an impressive level like being stronger than kid gohan before he trained to be an mssj. Not to mention the strength gap. Ssj is a x50 multiplier right? so just because goten transforms doesnt mean it automatically puts him on the strength level of gohan. Thats like syaing he's just as strong in base, how is that possible? goten catches up with all of gohans years of strength training by playing with trunks?? not believable.goten cant even fly and im supposed to believe he....wait. If gohan can pick up an oil truck in base, do you REALLY think goten can as well? and if so why? what feats or amount of proof has been shown for goten to be able to life a truck with not even half the training gohan has, even a rusty gohan who isnt fighting very well wont lose an ounce of real super strength, that was obvious in movie 10 when he stopped the speeding car with one foot. Thats no exaggeration by any means, movie or not. I just dont see goten covering the gap that quick without serious training, he showed gohan he has what it takes IMO, not much else. |
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| + Clearin | Aug 10 2011, 05:14 PM Post #22 |
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Lessee There's no as much of them training as I fought. There's a smallish part just after Goten first turns SSj (First time for us anyway) but after that Goten admits Gohan is better Then the next time we see them training (And I assume the equal strength thing comes from post training anyway) is a single panel which we have no idea how long they've been going at it That's about all there is for them training together. Edited by Clearin, Aug 10 2011, 05:14 PM.
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| Wintergreen5000 | Aug 10 2011, 05:40 PM Post #23 |
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WCZE
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First of all, it would be much easier if you downsized those walls of texts into smaller paragraphs. It would make it a lot easier to read what you're saying. Now, I'm gonna give it to you plain and simple, since you already read my proof for Goten matching Gohan's strength. I have shown you, are at least talked to you, about instances where Goten and Gohan are fighting each other, where neither fighter has the advantage, in power, speed, or anything. Now, you're telling me to prove that Goten is on Gohan's level, when in fact that is what is inferred by all that is shown. Prove to me that they aren't close to the same level instead. I didn't see Gohan in those fights completely dodge all of Goten's attacks as if they were nothing. I didn't see Gohan blocking Goten's attacks with a smile on his face. And I didn't see Gohan say before he sparred Goten that he'd only be using half of his power. So, the burden of proof doesn't lay on me to prove they are on the same level. The burden is on you to prove that they aren't. |
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Aug 11 2011, 01:11 AM Post #24 |
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The burden of proof is on the the person whp perceives it the way you do. All i see are gohan and goten training for long periods of time, gohan is fighting with his brother who turns out to be a good match as he is a natural with the martial arts, gohan didnt know chi chi trained his brother. Who wouldnt get tired? how on gods green earth is goten matching gohans speed when its obvious gohan was suppressed before changing? he changed because it was obvious goten was too strong for him in ssj to take on in base. Gohan turned ssj to match his brother and fight with him, not over power him and show him whos boss, youre missing the whole point of training if you believe that. Gohan is fighting goten at a level like goku does vegeta, he lowers himself and then goes from there, if you LOWER your power level, you will have the same amount of strength and speed your opponent does, gohan's mistake was believing he could be comfortable at the level he chose to match goten at, not knowing goten was used to going all out. Gohan realized he was truly rusty as he realized he MIGHT have to power up fully just to get away. Goten was putting in work and improving while gohan had lost touch with his own power. There is no burden of proof but the one you made up, goten is nowhere near as strong as his brother on a fpmssj level, and considering he's not even an mssj would/should also clearly clean up this argument. Gohan IS stronger and the difference between Mssj and savage ssj are radical in nature. Complete turnaround. Here's a seperate sentence for you to read better. Edited by Paikuan extreme, Aug 11 2011, 01:11 AM.
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| Nusu | Aug 11 2011, 08:16 AM Post #25 |
Piccolo Daimao > Piccolo Jr.
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Stomp by Bio Broli. I cannot believe that Son Goku is as strong as Super Saiyajin Son Goten. Doesn't work. Son Goten is on par with Teen Son Gohan, so I think that is to much of a gap to fill for Son Goku just in base. |
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Once upon a time, there used to be a signature. Then it got lame, and now I'm out of options for a new one. | |
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Aug 11 2011, 08:22 AM Post #26 |
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Base Goku has Kaioken iircc. He wins. |
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| + Pyrus | Aug 11 2011, 08:43 AM Post #27 |
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Mastered Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan don't have any power difference between people of similar strength levels. It's just the characteristics of the user that change, not the power output. Also, the burden of proof is on the person who went against the original claim made. Whoever that was, the burden is on them. |
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Aug 11 2011, 09:51 AM Post #28 |
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Being an mssj is about controlling the savage nature and controlling the ki output so it doesnt soam everywhere and make you tired, no one here has proven goten is as strong as gohan in general, goten is a strong fighter yes, but before the 25th budokai? no, he's not as strong as teen gohan, its not possible. Gohan is suppressed and goten is going all out, gohan could have powered up fully and made it look easy. No contest. Thats not even saying goten isnt strong, cause he's obviously stronger than kid gohan in base and ssj. Saying his ssj is on par with anyones mssj when his base isnt as strong as their makes no sense, and NO way is goten as strong as everyone else in base form, the math doesnt add up. |
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| + Pyrus | Aug 11 2011, 10:11 AM Post #29 |
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But the thing is I can just as easily say Goten was suppressed in order to not hurt his older brother's feelings... |
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| Wintergreen5000 | Aug 11 2011, 05:14 PM Post #30 |
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WCZE
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"The burden of proof is on the the person whp perceives it the way you do." Really? So if anyone shares the same opinion as me then the burden of proof is automatically on us just because we share an opinion that goes against what you believe? Well, Ninja, I already have given proof. YOU, on the other hand, reject what I have given on account of your own personal opinion...which is supported by nothing other than "Goten can't be that strong". I'm going to start off by saying we are shown that Goten and Gohan are fighting each other equally in volume 20 during preparation for the tourney. Both are sweating. Both have serious faces. Therefore, it must be assumed that they are close to the same level. If you say that they aren't on the same level, which you do, then I'd like to see some proof. Have any quotes from the manga? Have anything at all to contradict what is shown? Statements? Events of any kind? If not, then stop telling me that I need to prove something that is already shown to be proven. If you do have actual proof then show it now so I don't have to keep typing the same thing. You say that Gohan lowered his level on account of Goten being weaker, yet there is no proof that Goten is much weaker than Gohan. Gohan is obviously weaker than SSjin Goten in base, but that isn't proof that SSjin Goten is weaker than SSjin Gohan. That's proof that SSjin Goten is stronger than base Gohan. I never said that Gohan was trying to overpower Goten and show him who's boss. They performed Kumite and the results were self-evident. You still give effort while training, otherwise training is pointless. They weren't trying to kill each other but they weren't playing ring around the rosie either. They're going to come at each other hard, and it showed in the panels in their face expressions. So, like you said... if Gohan lowered his level to Goten's, then yes, he would be on the same level. But there is no proof he did such a thing. He never told Goten he was going to go easy on him either. You're arguing from a point of view that is assumed and without proof. If there is another case where someone lowered their level to match another, fine by me as long as it's stated to have happened. The problem here is it isn't stated that Gohan lowered his level to spar with Goten. Apparently, Gohan being MSSjin doesn't mean that he is automatically stronger than SSjin Goten, who showed he could maintain the form quite easily actually. Even Vegeta commented on how well Trunks easily used the form. Goten made Gohan work hard to block his hits during Kumite, and later on it is shown that they are fighting each other very hard in training. The bottom line Ninja is Gohan never stated or even showed us that he lowered his level to train with SSjin Goten. It is never contradicted in the manga later on either that SSjin Goten is close to SSjin Teen Gohan's level. So, if all your going to do is insult me and tell me to repeat the same thing over and over because I need to prove something that is plainly shown, then I'm about done with this. |
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