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- SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Saga) Vs. FDabura (Buu Saga)
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| SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Saga) Vs. FDabura (Buu Saga) | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 3 2011, 12:32 AM (4,286 Views) | |
| Wintergreen5000 | Aug 6 2011, 05:59 PM Post #31 |
WCZE
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Uh, other than the Daiz, there is no evidence that Gohan was SSjin 2 against Dabra. And let's face it, the Daiz isn't infallible. |
 
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| + Clearin | Aug 6 2011, 06:09 PM Post #32 |
 
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Evidence for MSSj: No sparks - (Art mistake?) A Daiz entry saying he never turned SSj2 again after the tournament - (Contradicted later) Commenting that Goku and Vegeta are SSj2 after the fight - (I don't fully understand this one but someone brought it up before) Buu's ball didn't gather up as fast as when Vegeta and Goku fought. Presumably anyway, there was no conversation on how much energy Dabura collected from Gohan - (Goku and Vegeta had more power than Gohan, their fight might have lasted longer and Goku got hit more - also the ball might have been almost full from Gohan and Dabura's fight) Evidence for SSj2: Long thin bang over short fat one - (Art mistake?) Piccolo and Krillin are turned to stone and the only way to save them is beat Dabura Dabura is trying to kill Gohan The longer the fight goes on - The more energy Buu gets - (Above 3 might be explained by Gohan wanting to show off to Goku and Vegeta?) Daiz entry saying he was SSj2 in the fight - (Contradicting a previous entry) That's what I've gathered. Edited by Clearin, Aug 6 2011, 06:10 PM.
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| Wintergreen5000 | Aug 6 2011, 06:31 PM Post #33 |
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WCZE
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The fact that Toriyama changed Gohan's hairstyle for SSjin puts you in a deep hole my friend. Secondly, I already explained why Gohan's comment about Goku and Vegeta fighting on a whole other level is relevant to the fact that Gohan was not SSjin 2 when he faced Dabra. If you don't understand it, I suggest you read it and the manga again to try to get a firmer grasp. This is key in understanding that Gohan could not have been SSjin 2 when he fought Dabra. Thirdly, It's confirmed that Gohan having no sparks in his fight with Dabra is not an art mistake. It's very much unlikely that Toriyama would draw Goku and Vegeta as SSjin 2s with sparks and forget to add in the sparks for Gohan if he were indeed SSjin 2. The anime shows that the meter had hardly gone up during Dabra and Gohan's fight. Since the manga doesn't give anything to contradict this I see no reason to think otherwise, especially considering all the other evidence supporting Gohan to be MSSjin. Edited by Wintergreen5000, Aug 6 2011, 06:32 PM.
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Aug 6 2011, 06:32 PM Post #34 |
Badabing!
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The aura argument is pretty weak tbh. We have Nappa and Vegetto displaying an SSJ2 type aura to display their power in comparison to the standards of that arc. Maybe the no lightning was to emphasise Vegeta's point that Gohan was weak sauce. |
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| Wintergreen5000 | Aug 6 2011, 06:33 PM Post #35 |
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WCZE
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Or maybe it was to emphasize the fact that Gohan was not SSjin 2. |
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Aug 6 2011, 06:36 PM Post #36 |
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Badabing!
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Then you would have to argue that Nappa was SSJ2. |
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| + Clearin | Aug 6 2011, 06:37 PM Post #37 |
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Yeah he changed the MSSj bang into a short fat one, compared to the long thin one he had against Kibito and then later has against Dabura. I think I remember that convo now, I said something about that line meaning they're far above Gohan, which I put in the explanation part of the evidence for MSSj. Not to mention the fact that as far as I know he didn't specifically say he wasn't SSj2 when he said that, just that Goku and Vegeta were, and they were on a whole other level to Gohan no matter what form they're in. Also I'm not going to read it all going in with the mindset he HAS to be in a certain form, I'm actually TRYING to keep an open mind here, I've given evidence for both sides and even given possible explanations for all evidences. I just think the evidence I got in the SSj2 seemed better so that's what I went for *Shrug* It's confirmed? Hmm did Akira Toriyama say that? And I don't really take anime into account, I've been talking about the manga the whole time. Another bit of evidence he might have been SSj2: Gohan also didn't have sparks when he fought Fat Buu did he? |
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| * Yu Narukami | Aug 6 2011, 06:43 PM Post #38 |
Izanagi!
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Either way Gohan wins. SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games) > MSSJ Gohan (Buu Saga) >= Dabura SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games) > SSJ2 Gohan (Buu Saga) >= Dabura |
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| Wintergreen5000 | Aug 6 2011, 07:08 PM Post #39 |
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WCZE
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Seriously? I don't need to argue Nappa is SSjin 2 since he's not even SSjin 1, lol. That's a no-brainer. Suggesting Nappa to be SSjin 2 is ridiculous obviously, so in his case, the lightning present is attributed to the fact that he was super-charged, not because he is SSjin 2 or anything. @ Gohanz - No. Toriyama changed Gohan's SSjin 1 hairstyle from the shorter single hairbang, accompanied by the smaller and thinner hairbang, to the single, elongated, [don't make fun of that word there lol] SSjin 2-reminiscent style. I don't have pictures and crap and I don't intend on searching for them on the internet. However, I stand by my words and assert them to be true. Just look in the manga. No. It was stated by Gohan that Goku and Vegeta were at a whole 'nother level altogether, "beyond the Super Saiyan limits" as it were. It wasn't that they were merely "stronger" than he was. This was the reason why the meter went up so quickly later on, when even Babidi expressed surprise at how quickly it had gone up, unlike with Dabra and Gohan. And as I said, Goku and Vegeta aren't THAT much stronger than Gohan anyway. So even if Gohan was SSjin 2 against Dabra, it still wouldn't explain why Dabra backed out of the fight to try for even greater results, when we see that with twoo SSjin 2s the results come rather quickly. You made referance Gohanz to the anime when you spoke of Gohan and Dabra's fight earlier in the topic, I believe. So you aren't entirely using canon terms. But my point regarding the meter is that it doesn't contradict the manga, which is supported heavily by pro-MSSjin Gohan evidence, so it isn't exactly a farcry from the truth. What's more is the FACT that because Gohan is drawn without sparks, it hints to us that Gohan is not SSjin 2 [obviously]. Toriyama didn't make a mistake with that. If he did, prove it. And the Daiz can't serve as any kind of proof since it contradicts itself on the matter. On this part of the argument, you are completely groundless to cast doubt on the validity of Toriyama's work concerning Gohan appearing to be MSSjin and not SSjin 2, especially since Gohan's Super Saiyan form was changed to look like SSjin 2 ever since the 25th World Tournament started. To say that Gohan's hairbang as a Super Saiyan is short and fat at this point would ignore later and earlier sequences during his training with the Zeta Sword and during the 25th World Tournament showing his bang to be similar to his SSjin 2 hairstyle. In terms of the hairbangs at this point the forms are quite comparable. The only noticable difference is the sparks, of which he has none in his fight with Dabra. And no, Gohan didn't have sparks when he fought Fat Buu. But there is no proof that he was SSjin 2 there either, so why you would bring this up as possible evidence that he could've been SSjin 2 with Dabra, especially considering the comments Gohan made about Goku and Vegeta fighting past the Super Saiyan limits, and thus being the main reason why Buu hatched so quickly, is beyond me. If Toriyama made a mistake there, it was making Gohan SSjin 1 and not SSjin 2. But the idea he got across in both fights is that Gohan was not SSjin 2. You can think what you want. But in my opinion it is very obvious that Gohan was not SSjin 2 against Dabra. The evidence is just too great to take the wrong way. |
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| Sam | Aug 6 2011, 07:21 PM Post #40 |
It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash.
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Nappa had lightning because the concept of lightning hadn't yet been applied to a Super Saiyan form. So, by logical deduction, clearly, you cannot reference the Nappa thing. The meter went up very little during Dabra and Gohan's fight, which makes it an argument for why Gohan was just MSSj. TORIYAMA HAS NEVER MADE A HUGE SSJ2 ART MISTAKE LIKE THIS ONE. The. Art. Speaks. ALL. Gohan was MSSj. |
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WoW Legion Ending - Thank you Darker for making this into one, big incredible gif! <3 | |
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| + Clearin | Aug 6 2011, 07:25 PM Post #41 |
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Yes. Toriyama changed Gohan's SSj hairstyle so it was 1 short fat bang, as seen when Videl was getting beaten up. His SSj2 is 1 thin bang, as shown when he turns SSj2 for Kibito. Now fast forward to the Dabura fight and it's 1 long, thin bang. Well I guess that depends on how much you have Goku and Majin Vegeta above Gohan...since if you have them pretty far apart Gohan's comments about them being on another level, the meter not filling up as quickly (which wasn't shown in the manga anyway) and Dabura wanting to use Vegeta (Who was going on about how he was stronger than Gohan the whole fight, Dabura realizing this saw the opportunity) all these make sense if you have them far apart... I brought up that scene because someone else mentioned it lol, I would never try to bring anime into a canon discussion, I was just helping someone. I explained the bangs above, he made a mistake with either the bang or the sparks, you can't have both of them really. Not my own personal theory but I've heard explanations that the sparks are there to show great power, as I've seen many people say before (and kinda supported it by showing scans), so since we didn't know how weak Gohan was in the Kibito fight Akira added them in to not spoil anything. Or that he had them at the start of the Dabura fight but lost them due to losing power. I didn't make these theories up myself but since I was told them I found them quite good explanations. I thought Gohan being SSj2 against Fat Buu was quite commonly accepted, sorry I guess I jumped to conclusions before knowing what you thought about that fight. I will think what I want, I've seen a lot of evidence for both sides though so excuse me if I choose one that isn't the same as yours u.u
We never saw the meter during that fight. Edited by Clearin, Aug 6 2011, 07:31 PM.
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| Kruegs Outlandish | Aug 6 2011, 07:27 PM Post #42 |
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Aura is the strongest argument, for those who don't believe that. There's not much of a way to counter or fault it. Doing so is making good points that don't quite knock it at best. If one were to argue for Gohan using SSJ2, they'd have to use other evidence beside auras and hope that it stacks well... But on the other side, the opposition should not hug onto auras so tightly that they completely ignore all other evidence in favor of their explanation. Have fun with that, Dabra supporters... |
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Aug 6 2011, 07:30 PM Post #43 |
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Badabing!
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What about Vegetto being SSJ when he had an SSJ2 aura? What about about Majin Vegeta not having lightning in his aura before he knocked out Goku? I'm not picking sides but as lunar says its a matter of opinion and tbh I don't even have an opinion on the matter. |
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| Sam | Aug 6 2011, 07:37 PM Post #44 |
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It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash.
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Majin Vegeta powered down, that's why. He had an aura the entire rest of the fight. Vegetto had one because he was an uber-powerful fusion character. At least, that was the reason given for it. You do have a point though. However, that point fails and means absolutely NOTHING because Gohan had no lightning the ENTIRE fight. That's no art mistake. That's intentional. We did not see the meter, true, but, Bobbidi was clearly frustrated at Dabra's lack-of-performance during the fight and was a bit panicked. Edited by Sam, Aug 6 2011, 07:37 PM.
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WoW Legion Ending - Thank you Darker for making this into one, big incredible gif! <3 | |
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Aug 6 2011, 07:38 PM Post #45 |
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hey man, that was BEST japanese impression, you dont want?? you dont buy!!! LOLMAO Edited by Paikuan extreme, Aug 6 2011, 07:39 PM.
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