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- SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Saga) Vs. FDabura (Buu Saga)
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| SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Saga) Vs. FDabura (Buu Saga) | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 3 2011, 12:32 AM (4,287 Views) | |
| Wintergreen5000 | Aug 3 2011, 04:01 PM Post #16 |
WCZE
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Heh, it doesn't need to be shown in the fight. The fact that Gohan expresses his surprise at Goku and Vegeta fighting at the SSjin 2 level is obvious proof that Gohan didn't use that high of a level when he fought Dabra. But I'm curious as to when he transformsed into SSjin 2 in the anime. If he did, his sparks must have been out on vacation or something. |
 
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| J-Smack | Aug 3 2011, 04:02 PM Post #17 |
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Wow, I've never heard this used as evidence...no sarcasm, either! I'd say that's a good one to possibly end the debate, or was it ended already? Using this, and my belief that Dabura can't possibly be stronger than Perfect Cell, SSJ2 11-year old Gohan wins. |
Now, there's an idea. | |
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| + Clearin | Aug 3 2011, 04:07 PM Post #18 |
 
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I don't remember Gohan expressing that surprise but I don't see how it proves anything about himself, they 2 things seem completely unrelated. He's shocked Goku and Vegeta can turn ssj2 so that means he can't possibly have been using it himself? It's around 4:35 And if he was a MSSj I guess his front bang just wanted to grow twice as long as it normally was as a MSSj and went on a diet to look skinnier (Talking about the manga there, not related to the video). Plus Dabura is trying to kill him, his friends are turned to stone and the only way to get them back is beat Dabura, or that the longer the fight goes on the more power Buu gets for his ball. I'll take those 3 reasons over "He has no sparks" any day. The hair is just a little extra proof really. |
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| Wintergreen5000 | Aug 3 2011, 04:27 PM Post #19 |
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WCZE
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Volume 22, page 184, Gohan expresses his surprise at Goku and Vegeta using higher levels of Super Saiyan, saying: "...I get it now...!! Dad's fighting at a level beyond the Super Saiyan limits...and probably Vegeta too...so the damage is greater...!!!" I want to emphasize that last part there: "...so the damage is greater...". If Gohan was using SSjin 2 when he faced Dabra, then he couldn't possibly say this or express this kind of surprise. By contrasting greater damage with the initial "lesser damage", it is clear proof that beforehand he nor Dabra were dealing this greater damage, and thus were at a weaker level. Now, at this point, Toriyama had already changed Gohan's hairstyle for SSjin 1. Gohan no longer sported two bangs while in SSjin 1, in the manga at least. I'm afraid the same cannot be said for the anime. However, all the points in the anime where it shows Gohan with two bangs are overridden by the manga, wherein it showcases Gohan in these respective points with one bang, as Toriyama had intended it. So, the fact that we see Gohan here with one hair bang is of no consequence, since it coincides with the manga, and since Gohan has no lightning sparks. Perhaps the reason why Gohan did not turn into SSjin 2 at first when fighting Dabra could be attributed to the fact that he was looking forward to fighting earlier on, when Dabra taunted all of them to attack him at once. Not only that, but if Gohan had used Super Saiyan 2 early on, and Dabra proved to match that level, then Buu would've been revived easily. So he may have wanted to retain the fight at the Super Saiyan level, which would seem like a smart move on his part, only he could've finished Dabra if he went SSjin 2 right off the bat. |
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Aug 3 2011, 04:31 PM Post #20 |
 
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gohan is clearly MSSJ in the video, how do you use this to support your evidence he wasnt? look at his white hair! the only lighting came from dabura himself, not gohan. gohan is not ssj2, nor does he even look it. I think people want to assume that he was ssj2 because he turned ssj2 for the kais when they wanted to see it, and baited him into transforming. Even his aura is mssj, and not the ragtag wild aura of ssj2 either, white hair, no sparks, no ssj2 aura. Now WHy would i believe he turned ssj2? |
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| + Clearin | Aug 3 2011, 04:33 PM Post #21 |
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Keep in mind Gohan was weaker than even regular SSj2 Vegeta much less Majin SSj2 Vegeta and Goku 
In the manga he had 1 bang yes, but that bang was short and fat, the one in SSj2 (And against Dabura) is long and thin Your last point is basically just a theory so I can't really say anything about it  if you think he was MSSj then that's something you could believe but if you think SSj2 then obviously you won't. But I will say that the reason that fight didn't revive Buu so quick could be becauseA) Gohan got hit less than Goku did B) The fight was shorter C) Dabura and Gohan weren't nearly as strong as Vegeta and Goku. Anyway I've done this argument in the past, in fact the very first one I ever did on the forum so I'd really just like to leave it. I think he was SSj2, you think MSSj, I really don't want to argue about it again (Last time it was over 14 pages >_<) Sorry
The anime shouldn't be used for arguments anyway, I just posted that vid because it was asked for. And you don't have to believe he was SSj2, no one is telling you too, believe what you want. Edited by Clearin, Aug 3 2011, 04:35 PM.
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| J-Smack | Aug 3 2011, 04:54 PM Post #22 |
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I don't know he clearly says in the same sentence that because Vegeta and Goku are fighting at another level the damage is greater--as in comparing it to previous fights on the spaceship, i.e., his and Dabura's. |
Now, there's an idea. | |
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| Wintergreen5000 | Aug 3 2011, 05:10 PM Post #23 |
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WCZE
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LOL. Ninjajp is all "NO! NO SPARKLE! NO HAIRBANGEH! NO Suupahh Saiya-jinn 2!!!" Just joking Ninja. Now, I see how you could try to infer that Gohan said that because Gohan was indeed all-around weaker than Goku and Vegeta. However, he doesn't say they are fighting beyond his level. He says that they are fighting beyond the Super Saiyan limits. So, clearly a distinction between one Super Saiyan level and another, not a distinction between Gohan's overall level and their's. I will many times fit theories into my posts. What can I say? I love to muse. But, keep in mind that a theory, being that, isn't necessarily far from the truth if it's supported by logical deduction. But thinking that Gohan was just MSSjin is, in my opinion, not something I believe, it's something I take as fact BASED off the evidence I am given. But I can understand the long-windedness of debates. They can get tedious and overbearing. So, as you request, this will be my last post on the matter. Gohan did get hit less than Goku did by what we saw. Remember that there was a hiatus after Gohan's confrontation with Dabra, which moved the story back to the World Tournament. We don't know what ensued when the battle started. But as Gohan said, the damage was greater for Goku and Vegeta, because they were at higher levels, the attacks dealt way more damage. After the first attacks, both Goku and Vegeta were bleeding. The same cannot be said for Gohan and Dabra, which, even after missing the start of the battle, were still not causing each other to bleed. This is another indication that Gohan was fighting at a lower level than Goku and Vegeta. We don't know how long the fight between Gohan and Dabra was, since the start of their battle was not shown, and quite some time past during the hiatus of that part of the story. It could've been longer actually, but I think that point is rather moot, since we see that the damage Goku and Vegeta dealt each other was greater than what Dabra and Gohan were dishing out, regardless of how long the fights were. I would agree that Gohan and Dabra weren't quite as strong as Goku and Vegeta. But, at the same time, I would argue that Goku and Vegeta aren't that much stronger either. Vegeta mentioned that Goku was stronger than Gohan was after he turned SSjin 2, which, by Vegeta's initial condescending comment, was already obvious to anyone of the party if Vegeta was talking about Teen Gohan, or for those who prefer, "Adult Gohan". Vegeta must have been speaking of Kid Gohan, from the Cell Game. If it was a feat for Goku to have surpassed Kid Gohan, enough of one to make Vegeta give praise, then, given the fact that we know Gohan not to be too much weaker than his kid self, as Super Saiyans 2s, Vegeta nor Goku are much stronger than Teen Gohan. So if Gohan was Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Dabra, it wouldn't make sense that their attacks seemed to be so much weaker than Goku's and Vegeta's, which drew blood on first impact. Edited by Wintergreen5000, Aug 3 2011, 05:15 PM.
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| Sam | Aug 3 2011, 05:23 PM Post #24 |
It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash.
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Dabra >= Perfect Cell (powered up/suppressed) Dabra is only a bit stronger than the Cell that fought Goku. SSj2 Chibi Gohan would annihilate him. I'll never accept that Gohan was SSj2 vs. Dabra. The art doesn't support it in the least. There is no reason Toriyama would leave it out. There are no Daizenshuu posts on it. I will not believe "he should have been" evidence. That's not evidence. Period. Edited by Sam, Aug 3 2011, 05:25 PM.
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WoW Legion Ending - Thank you Darker for making this into one, big incredible gif! <3 | |
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| + Clearin | Aug 3 2011, 05:27 PM Post #25 |
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Actually one of them does say he was SSj2. But in contradicts another one that says he never went SSj2 again after the tournament. |
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| Kruegs Outlandish | Aug 3 2011, 05:33 PM Post #26 |
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oh god... Any of you could search Dabura and find that this happens EVERY TIME HIS NAME IS MENTIONED! One of you could make a topic tailor-made for this debate... but half of it would just be one side clinging to their mother's leg and the other, clinging to dad's, imo. Dabra's awesome, i think. His voice actor was fuggin' boss and I think the manga missed a chance to play off of his character. At least in the anime, they give him a proper farewell by having him attack Buu with some decency... and I completely RIPPED with him in DBZ Budokai 3... BEST SPECIAL IN THE GAME (as far as looks), and I'd always pick the destroyed Archipelago, but it usually suit the ownage that would ensue. So yeah, make a discussion topic and then actually entertain the others' points, and then we may actually get somewhere, both in this topic (where we should be trying to figure out whether CG Gohan beats Cell) and in knowing Dabura's power (in a topic made for that)... [/rant] |
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| * Yu Narukami | Aug 3 2011, 05:42 PM Post #27 |
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Izanagi!
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I have one question. Did Goku know the true extent of SPC's full power? He fought Perfect Cell so he knows how powerful he can be but he never fought SPC. He may have observed it from otherworld but surely he couldn't sense SPC's Power. IMO, Goku only knows the true extent of Perfect Cell's power and he's referencing that. And it wouldn't surprise me if Gohan was SSJ2. SSJ2 Gohan (CG) > Super Perfect Cell > SSJ2 Gohan (Buu Saga) > Perfect Cell (Full Power) > MSSJ Gohan (CG) > MSSJ Gohan (Buu Saga) Edited by Yu Narukami, Aug 3 2011, 05:42 PM.
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| + Pyrus | Aug 3 2011, 06:13 PM Post #28 |
 
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I don't like giving evidence to the Super Saiyan 2 side, but Goku most likely could sense Super Perfect Cell's power. He could sense that Gohan still had power left and that he was holding back, and could sense when the right time to strike was, so I think it'd be plausible for him to be able to sense Cell as well. Anyway, Ill brings up a good argument, one which I support. Gohan would massacre Dabra in this battle. Also, if you visit this thread, you'll see that Daizenshuu 2 does indeed contradict Daizenshuu 7 when it comes to Gohan's use of Super Saiyan 2. Edited by Pyrus, Aug 3 2011, 06:14 PM.
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| Kruegs Outlandish | Aug 3 2011, 06:23 PM Post #29 |
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Pyro, that's one of the most level-headed things I've ever seen a DABOORAS-WEEK arguer do... ever. You'll go down in history... And yeah, 2 and 7 contradict one another... 2 would means that Gohan would not have turned SSJ2 ever afterwards, not with Dabra, not with Buu's shell, not Z Sword... 7 entertains the possibility... |
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| lunar2 | Aug 5 2011, 06:58 PM Post #30 |
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there is more or less equal evidence for gohan being mssj or ssj2. it's a matter of opinion. the good news is: it doesn't matter. there are very few vs. topics where gohan's form vs. dabura actually matters. since gohan there was the weakest ever ssj2 (if he was ssj2) any dabura vs. ssj2 topic ends with dabura losing, barring spit, of course. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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